Raoul's China Saloon (V5.0) Beta
The Bar Room => The Bar (ON-TOPIC) => Topic started by: Jarrett on September 07, 2007, 09:03:50 AM
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Hello! cccccccccc
My name is Jarrett DeLorenzo, I am 22 years old, and I am NOT smarter than a fifth grader. On a more serious not; I have been reading about TEFL and all the seemingly complicated facts on acquiring a certificate.
I feel a little overwhelmed while reading many of you’re posts, as most of you have BA'
s +. aoaoaoaoao I am sad to say I have little college experience, but I would like that to change in the future. I have always been interested in teaching, but skeptical about a long education and not being satisfied in the end.
A friend was telling me that getting a TEFL Certificate would be a great way to get your 'feet wet'. bbbbbbbbbb
I have a million questions pertaining to this certificate, but I suppose the most important questions is this; What is a good way to tell if a certain program is a scam? cbcbcbcbcb Does anyone know with experience or reference what a good website/program is to go through? I saw an add on Craig’s list about TEFL Institute, and it seemed very straight forward and delightful. I spoke with one of thier trainers about all they offer, I believe it was $995 dollars for a 120 hour, 1 month course. I had the choice of several countries to teach after I got my certificate; China being my choice.
I've been scammed in the past with something different, so I started researching and found a few complaints. bibibibibi TEFL Watch had complaints against them. (If I am not supposed to use website names, I apologize, and will edit it right away).
If anyone has any input or feedback, it would be most appreciated. This will be a life changing experience, and what better way to begin my journey than to have all of you to reference it.
Thank you for all your help, and I look forward to chatting with all of you! agagagagag
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Jarrett, firstly I can't promise you'll get a job on the back of any TEFL certificate, or that one program is any less of a ripoff than any other.
However, the Cambridge CELTA seems to be the most widely recognised of all the bits of paper out there. Its an actual bums in seats course, and involves a supervised practicum with real students. Its widely available in Western countries. Graduates, even those with degrees and, dare I say it, teaching certificates, report that its pretty tough.
Some places in China need you to be white and have a pulse. Others insist on a degree. I'm sure there's something out there for you, but it won't be a plum position in one of the popular cities.
And I'm glad you enjoy the emoticons.
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Thanks for the input Gonzo. bfbfbfbfbf
I'm curious if anyone here has taught abroad with just a TEFL certificate, or a CELTA?
If you say CELTA is a pretty difficult course, it may not be for someone like me; who has not had previous education in teaching.
I'm not particularly worried about having the greatest position, or being in the best part of the Country. I've been reading a lot of the job postings in China and what they require.
Some require nothing at all, while most require at least a TEFL Certificate, if not more.
So I suppose my questions still stands. Does anyone know of a decent TEFL program, where I can get my certificate and start working as soon as possible. Even if the jobs I may get aren't the greatest?
Thanks,
Jarrett
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I used Oxford Seminars. They are in Canada and the USA. It is a 60 hour course in a classroom, with additional modules you can do at home. I found it helpful as I had never taught before, however I do have a Master's Degree in Engineering.
I would recommend them as TEFL course.
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For your purposes (minimal) an on-line course from i-to-i may be just the ticket. It is simple, cheap and it gives a certificate. Of course there is no guarantee that it will get you a job or that you will be a good teacher. It is a peice of paper backed by a bunch of TEFL lessons. Good luck!
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If I were you, I would try to find a local course that can give actual classroom experience.
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If I were you, I would try to find a local course that can give actual classroom experience.
Like a College course?
Would that be more for myself, to see if I like it?
Or would you recommend it for my resume? Or both.
Did you get a TEFL Certificate? If so, where?
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For your purposes (minimal) an on-line course from i-to-i may be just the ticket. It is simple, cheap and it gives a certificate. Of course there is no guarantee that it will get you a job or that you will be a good teacher. It is a peice of paper backed by a bunch of TEFL lessons. Good luck!
Thank you very much, I gave them a call, and got a bunch of useful information. It seems like a decent place to start.
I realize having a peice of paper does not necessarily make me a teacher, I would just like to start teaching as soon as I can, and most likely come back and go for a degree. I've been told China, most of South America, and a few other countrys would be my choices since I do not have a Uni Degree. They mainly look for anyone who speaks English, and has a TEFL Certificate. Have to start somewhere I suppose.
Thanks for all your help.
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I used Oxford Seminars. They are in Canada and the USA. It is a 60 hour course in a classroom, with additional modules you can do at home. I found it helpful as I had never taught before, however I do have a Master's Degree in Engineering.
I would recommend them as TEFL course.
After looking at Oxford Seminars, they seemed like a nice place as well. I don't suppose anyone would know the difference between these sites, and what the teach? I suppose I just need to read the fine print, and find out exactly what, each one offers.
When you're applying for a job, now or when you first started, did they look at your TEFL Certificate. Do you often find them asking for one in the job postings?
I appreciate you're input!
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Like a College course?
Would that be more for myself, to see if I like it?
Or would you recommend it for my resume? Or both.
Did you get a TEFL Certificate? If so, where?
Hmm, you might want to search around. When I was in Florida, I found a local course included some hours in the classroom. I don't think it was affiliated with a college, though.
And it would definitely be as much for yourself as for your resume. I imagine you don't have a crippling fear of public speaking or a stuttering problem or anything else that might severely affect your teaching career, but it is always a good idea to get your feet wet.
I actually didn't get a TEFL certificate. I read a bunch of books on the subject, which is just as good as an online course IMO (and free, since I got them from the library) except there is no certificate at the end. Most schools only wanted to see my degree, as an either/or kind of situation.
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Can't help - I have a University teaching degree agagagagag But listen to what folks around here say. Welcome to the Saloon and good luck!
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Hmm, you might want to search around. When I was in Florida, I found a local course included some hours in the classroom. I don't think it was affiliated with a college, though.
And it would definitely be as much for yourself as for your resume. I imagine you don't have a crippling fear of public speaking or a stuttering problem or anything else that might severely affect your teaching career, but it is always a good idea to get your feet wet.
I actually didn't get a TEFL certificate. I read a bunch of books on the subject, which is just as good as an online course IMO (and free, since I got them from the library) except there is no certificate at the end. Most schools only wanted to see my degree, as an either/or kind of situation.
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Will do, thank you.
Which City are you located in now?
How are the living arrangements and such? Do most schools who hire you on provide a roof over your head, or is there rent to be paid?
Does the salary your employer provides usually cover everything you need?
Thanks for your patience/help.
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I've come around to the possibility that, for someone with no degree and no experience, a TEFL cert may not be a total waste of time and/or money. As Gonzo wisely points out, a cert will not guarantee a job, and the lack of a degree will exclude you from most of the top jobs. However, a cert might help in some cases.
If you really want to learn about teaching EFL, a live butts-in-seats program is the ONLY way to go. Don't waste time or money on an online or correspondence course. I'd suggest trying the local community colleges or other colleges/unis; many of them offer TEFL programs from time to time. A lot of the private cert companies are awfully dodgy.
If you just want a piece of paper that might help you get a job, I suggest you simply buy one. An internet search will locate a number of places that will outright sell you a TEFL cert; prices start at around US$150-200.
Again, don't bother with an online, correspondence, or distance course.
In China, horseshit can be had for no money and little effort. uuuuuuuuuu
I have to ask...you're talking to a group of people, some of whom occasionally attempt to take this stuff serious...do YOU feel ready to be a teacher?
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Jarrett, Try out teaching by volunteering to tutor at a Youth Centre or at an Adult Education School. It may not be ESL, but it will give you a place to start. If you find that you do like it (teaching)....OK!!........But if it becomes a drag, think of something else to invest your time and energies into.
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Yes, definitely go the volunteer stuff. There should be a place to volunteer with new immigrants and help them with English. The volunteer bureau's love people to help.
The Oxford Seminars and usually given at a local hotel. They are on weekends and are approx 10 hour days for 3 weekends. You do get practice teaching - but to the other students in the course. I still found it very helpful and useful. The textbooks they use are very helpful, and I brought them with me to China.
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Thanks for the input Gonzo. bfbfbfbfbf
I'm curious if anyone here has taught abroad with just a TEFL certificate, or a CELTA?
That would be me. I did the 60 hr. online course with i-to-i. I don't have a degree and even worse, I don't have US, UK, or AUS in my passport aoaoaoaoao
I chose the online TEFL program, because it was the cheapest. I figured I'd get my experience on the job and sure enough, the first few days of teaching I was quite nervous. It all worked out well though. From what I actually learned in my course, less than 10% was actually useful in real life or applicable in the Chinese classroom. In the end I'm glad that I didn't take a 'better' classroom type of course, because I don't think that those courses would in anyway resemble real life classroom situations. With these credentials it hasn't always been easy to find a (good) job, but until now things have always worked out for me.
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Jarrett, I'm about to confuse you.
Martin and I have had opposite experiences. Like him, I decided to avoid the expense of a TEFL course and learn on the job.
Unlike Martin, the decision blew up in my face. For the first 2 months i was an incompetent teacher; for a third I was distinctly mediocre.
My school teachers along the year; each had taken a TEFL course WITH CLASSROOM PRACTICE. They looked nervous shaky for the first week, then settled in and taught well- their lesson plans were sound. Their textbooks were chock full of great, useful stuff that I stole from constantly.
Maybe you're a Quick Martin, maybe you're a Slow Con. Do you wanna throw the dice? You know my take.
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Haha, you guys are great.
First of all, I'd love to praise all of you for lending me your ear, and giving me some advise. I'm currently looking into volunteering as a TA at a local school (Thanks Monk).
Second. Martin, thank you very much for providing the little bit of hope I was looking for! Someone who actually took the course and is working. How is getting a job/etc. going for you anyway? Staying busy?
I hear you guys, and a lot of other people saying there are a lot of sketchy jobs out there. I assume, for the jobs I would be elligible for, would be mostly along those lines. Martin, or anyone; what do you look for in a job? Any tell-tale signs?
Con- You didn't confuse me, you helped me. I thank you!
You've all been very gracious in my time of confusion, thank you so much.
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The best way to suss out good vs. bad schools is simply to correspond with them. Send them your resume, then ask questions abour the gig they're filling. When you get answers, ask another round of questions; repeat until satisfied.The Chinese, cautious and methodical by nature in negotiations, understand and respect this approach.
Do this with several schools at once, whittling them down until you settle on one.
Is this ethical? Yes. Schools will negotiate with you, promising the moon and stars and trying to emotionally blackmail you into signing with them- then suddenly stop replying to you because they got someone else. So you need to field multiple offers.
One last thing: many schools employ the bait-and-switch strategy to FT recruitment: promise them whatever it takes to get them over, then offer them a crap deal and try to scare them into signing. A good tip is to watch for any school that says NO to one of your requests. They at least aren't just shinola'ing you.
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In China, my MINIMUM requirements would be
1. 4,000 RMB per month
2. Single, furnished accomodation (with basic utilities and Western-style toilet)
3. Z-visa and/or Resident Permit
4. maximum hours = 20 per week
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Second. Martin, thank you very much for providing the little bit of hope I was looking for! Someone who actually took the course and is working. How is getting a job/etc. going for you anyway? Staying busy?
I have just started my fourth job since I arrived in China. I have to admit that without a degree and being one of the elusive non-native English speakers, I've had my fair share of frustration. At the end of one term and the beginning of another I'm always busy writing stacks of emails and posting my resume where ever I can. However, since schools will start looking for the ideal candidate first and only when they haven't found someone when the term is about to start, they will loosen their demands on qualifications. So for me it has been a combination of waiting (which has been stressful) and boldly marketing myself in my emails.
I must also add that I am quite picky. 'Even' with my credentials there are more than plenty of jobs out there, but I don't want 'a job'; I want a good job. Upto now I have always managed to secure a good job at the last minute. I've worked at nice schools in interesting cities with nice students and (relatively) good salaries.
The sad thing for me is that at the end of a term, students and management always tell me that I've done such a wonderful job and ask (sometimes beg) if I want to stay for another term. Once I'm in, all is good. To GET in is the challenge.
Oh, and despite the fact that some TEFL certification centres might warn you that some schools won't accept an online certificate, I have never had problems or questions about that. It might become the case with prestigious schools or in other countries, but my guess is that for most schools the fact that it says 'TEFL' is enough.
I hear you guys, and a lot of other people saying there are a lot of sketchy jobs out there. I assume, for the jobs I would be elligible for, would be mostly along those lines. Martin, or anyone; what do you look for in a job? Any tell-tale signs?
First of all I won't work at a language centre because of the high hours vs. low pay AND small class sizes (5 to 10 sts/class at most). I like the energy in big(ger) classes. Besides, you have to prepare less material in big classes.
Secondly, it greatly depends on what age you want or think you want to teach. I have taught just about all grades in primary, middle school, high school and college. Primary was fun, but exhausting. Some people swear by teaching non but kindergarten. Middle school didn't do it for me. You're more of a police agent than a teacher there (in my experience anyway). I had a blast with high school and after my last term of great college students I decided to stick with college or uni. I just had my first day at my new college today; the teaching is a bit more challenging, but a I have lovely contract.
So when I was surfing for my last and forlast job, I only looked at high school or above.
At last, the salary. Ok, if you want to make money you shouldn't come to China, but if I have a choice, I will of course choose the job with the best salary package I can get.
In China, my MINIMUM requirements would be
1. 4,000 RMB per month
2. Single, furnished accomodation (with basic utilities and Western-style toilet)
3. Z-visa and/or Resident Permit
4. maximum hours = 20 per week
I would not work for this. Even not when I was just starting in China.
For 20 lessons/hours/periods per week (which is most common) I wouldn't consider less than 5000 per month or maybe 4500 if the location is really nice. 4500 in Yangshuo for example; then at least you have a wonderful scenery to enjoy on your days off.
Z-visa, of course. Preferably provided AND paid for.
For a salary like this however, I would also want a plane ticket reimbursed (usually they offer 8000 for a year and 4000 for a half year contract) and/or some sort of bonus. Some call it travel allowance, some call it end-of-contract-bonus, I don't care but it has to be something. 2000 to 5000 for one year.
When I get serious with a school I always ask for one or two phone numbers of former or current foreign teachers to hear them out about their experiences.
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When I get serious with a school I always ask for one or two phone numbers of former or current foreign teachers to hear them out about their experiences.
Amen, Martin.
Jarrett, don't get too cowed by the process. It's a cool country, and with due diligence you'll get what you want.
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Thanks for all the advise, I'm printing and grabbing the highlighter as we speak.
I've heard that for TEFL Certificates, the "Standard" is 100 hours of course-work. Oxford Seminars is 60 hours. Does it REALLY matter? I read a post somewhere that stated schools may just shoo you away if you don't have 100+ hours.
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Both of my schools just wanted to see the certificate, they didn't ask how long it was. BTW, I used Oxford Seminars too and was fortunate in that the person who taught the course had spent several years teaching in Korea. It might be something to ask about, whether the instructors have practical ESL experience. Just checked the certificate, it does indeed say 60 hour course on it. If you've done anything with the scout movement, summer camps, etc. be sure to include it on a CV.
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Threads like this are so incredibly frustrating for me... llllllllll
If you're going to proceed with this, then the particular certificate you get, the hours of course work, and so on don't matter much at all in 99.9999% of cases. Unless you're getting a CELTA or Trinity or a BS in TEFL, all certificates are viewed about the same.
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Threads like this are so incredibly frustrating for me... llllllllll
If you're going to proceed with this, then the particular certificate you get, the hours of course work, and so on don't matter much at all in 99.9999% of cases. Unless you're getting a CELTA or Trinity or a BS in TEFL, all certificates are viewed about the same.
I apologize for frusterating you...
Just trying to understand how everything works. I'm happy that you understand the in-and-outs of this whole process, but I don't. I had no idea that it doesn't matter how long the course is, hence why I asked.
Thanks again.
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Jarrett, don't worry about frustrating Raoul. LOL! Now back to the topic, the missus has a 60 hour i-to-i course backing up her college degree and certificates. For her, the idea of taking a specific course for teaching ESL (she has taught for around 20 years) was the drawing card - enlarging the comfort zone so-to-speak before heading to China. Raoul is dead on the money. Few here care what or where the certificate indicates. It is simply a matter of having something to make them shine when they are audited. Certificates in China are like proofs of purchase, not indicating proficiency, but indicating you have paid the price of entry.
So, it becomes more about what do you want to have before coming so that YOU feel comfortable entering into our wild, wacky, wonderful, weird world of teaching in China?
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Jarrett, don't worry about frustrating Raoul. LOL! Now back to the topic, the missus has a 60 hour i-to-i course backing up her college degree and certificates. For her, the idea of taking a specific course for teaching ESL (she has taught for around 20 years) was the drawing card - enlarging the comfort zone so-to-speak before heading to China. Raoul is dead on the money. Few here care what or where the certificate indicates. It is simply a matter of having something to make them shine when they are audited. Certificates in China are like proofs of purchase, not indicating proficiency, but indicating you have paid the price of entry.
So, it becomes more about what do you want to have before coming so that YOU feel comfortable entering into our wild, wacky, wonderful, weird world of teaching in China?
Glad to hear it, thank you for the information.
I'm going to an informational seminar tonight; which contains anything I would ever want to know about TEFL. Hopefully I'll extract every bit of knowledge I need to make my decision.
I'm looking forward to be nieghbors with all of you!
Cheers.
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Asking is not the frustrating part. Asking is wonderful. Just forget I said anything. agagagagag
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Hi Jarrett. In under 40 days I will be Beijing taking a TEFL class because it was not available in my area. I am taking it to get some classroom exposure even though I have taught small groups of people computer classes at work. I also have no idea how to prepare lessons because I've only ever taught from provided materials.
Many of the postings here are the same or similar to when I asked the question a few months back! (a good thing!)
I have the means to pay for my TEFL and accommodations in China. Some people don't so that might factor into your decision.
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Hi Jarrett. In under 40 days I will be Beijing taking a TEFL class because it was not available in my area. I am taking it to get some classroom exposure even though I have taught small groups of people computer classes at work. I also have no idea how to prepare lessons because I've only ever taught from provided materials.
Many of the postings here are the same or similar to when I asked the question a few months back! (a good thing!)
I have the means to pay for my TEFL and accommodations in China. Some people don't so that might factor into your decision.
Sounds great! Good luck!
I just went to the Oxford Seminars Information Meeting last night. Everything went great...The funny thing was; I answered 90% of everyone elses questions, and people kept asking if I've ever taught before, or been abroad. It pays to do your research, and I have you guys to thank for that!!
I start this Saturday and will be done with my Certificate at the end of the month. With any luck, I will be in China in a months time.
Now taking applications to show me around when I get there! agagagagag
Thank you again!
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Oxford Seminars has a 'job finding' service. Beware, it is just a recruiter and they will find you the worst jobs and tell you that you will be in trouble if you don't use them. Their course was great, but the job finding sucked!! I found a job within 2 weeks of finishing the course by myself.
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Oxford Seminars has a 'job finding' service. Beware, it is just a recruiter and they will find you the worst jobs and tell you that you will be in trouble if you don't use them. Their course was great, but the job finding sucked!! I found a job within 2 weeks of finishing the course by myself.
Good to know. I have heard several bad things about recruiters.
What are some good websites I can inquire about job openings?
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Go to the links section here at the saloon. There are several listed.
http://raoulschinasaloon.com/index.php?topic=86.msg0#new
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Thanks, DS.
Yes, a lot of TEFL Cert places "partner with" (in some cases it's more like "front for") recruiting agencies and/or bad schools that go through lots of teachers. Volumes of reports indicate that these cert-related placement agencies should be shunned and avoided. Take the cert and run...find a job yourself!
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Word up! Bundling your course, travel agent, job placement, etc. sounds great... in theory.
But it just doesn't work out. When someone can take your business for granted, they get greedy.