Raoul's China Saloon (V5.0) Beta
The Bar Room => The Bar (ON-TOPIC) => Topic started by: rmontjoy on February 04, 2010, 04:08:13 AM
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Well, I have accepted a position at Guangdong Baiyun University in Guangzhou. I start on March 1st.
Thanks to all who offered assistance and suggestions during the early stages of contracts considerations--a great help!
I'll post my experiences as I begin this new phase of my life.
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Congrats! agagagagag agagagagag agagagagag
You may be happy to know that there's bungee jumping available on Baiyun Shan. ababababab
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LOL...I will be sure to stay away from tall buildings and cliffs.
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Congratulations on finding a position. Remember that Zhaoqing is only a couple of hours away from Guangzhou, when you want a break. Of course you will need to settle in, first!!
Enjoy the journey.
Lin
Zhaoqing, Guangdong
bxbxbxbxbx
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Thanks, Lin...I'll keep that in mind.
Ray
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Dongguan is only a short bus ride away too.
Hope you enjoy this new and exciting chapter in your life. I look forward to hearing the story of your early days in China. I always love to read about others' first impressions.
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Great start - have fun.
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Congratulations! bfbfbfbfbf
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Welcome to the boonies, lol
best of luck!
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Congratulations, Señor Montjoy!
I sincerely hope it works out great for you, and you'll have a school endorsement to post a year from now... agagagagag
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Welcome to China, rmj. Hope you have a great semester.
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Let the games begin!
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Shit...crap...geez...
I hate to have to be the one to possibly rain on the parade, but feel I must pass on an excerpt from a private communication I received about this school... llllllllll
First of all, I can speak DIRECTLY to experience. I was in Guangzhou for almost 4 years.
Baiyun University ex Baiyun Institute has the worst reputation of all in Guangzhou -- the very, very worst. Most teachers last there three / four months at most before they either run away or are fired. Many reasons. I just don't know where to start.
Let's start with the Dragon Lady -- her name is Nancy Kwang. She is from Henan and is the Foreign Affairs Officer. She is a lying, cunning, scheming bitch-on-wheels. Put no stake in anything she stays at all. Nothing. Everything is meaningless. She will renegotiate your contract once you arrive, she will cut your salary for any reasons she deems fit, she will hold your pay if she is angry with you, etc., etc. There are myriad and myriad reports about this school from ex-victims all over the Internet. During my own interview, I asked the the bitch lady how many teachers returned for a second year and the answer was none. In fact, no teacher in 10 years has ever returned for a second year and most don't return for a second semester.
There are three big avoids in Guangzhou as follows (in no particular order ) : Baiyun Institute, Peizheng College and Alcanta College of Foreign Languages. Baiyun and Alcanta tie for a terrible first and then Peizheng follows with a close second. All three are revolving doors -- at Baiyun some teachers come and go the same day that they arrive -- it was terrible.
Next, the more bad. The apartments. Substandard is not the word. Maybe at most 20 square meters. No privacy. The school comes and goes into the foreign teachers' apartments as it sees fit. Flimsy wooden doors that anyone can open with a credit card. Robberies occur often in the foreign teachers' apartments. They are ugly, hideous, dirty, ill-kempt, etc., etc. It is not possible to live off campus because contrary to the reports about the other side of Baiyun Mountain, which are vaguely true, it is actually miles and miles in the middle of nowhere. There is bus service to Guangzhou but it takes about 2 hours to get there and the bus service is highly irregular on the weekends and non-existant during vacation period.
The campus is beautiful, for a fact. The classrooms and administration offices are beautiful, for a fact. The teachers' apartments look like a slum in the middle of a blighted American city.
Nancy Bitch will make you do all kinds of overtime and then discount your overtime rate. At the end of the day, your paycheck will not resemble anything in your contract.
I feel so, so bad for Mr. Montjoy but maybe his own experience will be different. Maybe he will be the first teacher in the history of the school to return for a second year and maybe he will be one of the few to finish his contract.
Dear Raoul, think of your worst experience in China and then multiply by about 10 x and you will have a Baiyun experience.
And the pay is not great at all either to begin with.
And there you have it. I do hope it's wrong, but it seemed like something that at least needed to be seen and considered. llllllllll llllllllll llllllllll
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aoaoaoaoao Jeez! TIFC, there are 6 sides to every story. Well, good luck Montjoy. Hope things aren't as bad as that!....and we do have people in Guangzhou, or thereabouts, if you need 'em.
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Montjoy posted about the possibility of working for Baiyun on December 28th last year. Why did it take so long for this info to come to light?
Why isn't Baiyun written up in the institution review page?? It really sounds as if it needs to be.
He's now agreed to go there, stopped looking for anything else and is running out of time.
This is sad.
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but feel I must pass on an excerpt from a private communication I received about this school...
Probably as quickly as he could.
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I agree - but whoever sent it has either been contacted by someone here or is someone who comes here to read/is a member.
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The source needs to considered too. Is this someone you know and trust Raoul? Is it a PM from a regular here? Not asking who but ... WOW
This is seriously strong and would effectively keep anyone that visits this site from taking a job there.
Small apartments, pay issues and a crap FAO? That's most schools in China.
Good luck Montjoy. I suggest you try and find out more.
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Also there is no mention of being an illegal employer in this diatribe. If you have a residence permit, that alone keeps it form being the worst place to work in Guangzhou for a newbie.
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some of you have just echoed my own concerns.
RD, I trust your judgement in posting that; and taken in context, no doubt the person who sent you that message wanted to see it posted for all the world to see. However I still have qualms about this. Why hide behind a pm, why can't the poster put this up him/herself? Still at that school? Been threatened by heavies in GZ/GD? I can think of several reasons, but taking the pm route does beg the Q.
RD's worst experience 10x? <Sigh> I do dislike hyperbole. Let's just say it sounds bad enough to avoid. There are myriad and myriad reports about this school from ex-victims all over the Internet.
Are there? I only looked for about 15 minutes, and I found a report from 2007, followed by a thread that lasted into the fall of 2008. Not a lot, but enough to make me cautious. RMJ, have you done your due diligence? what have former teachers had to say about Baiyun?
Sounds to me like an aggrieved former teacher, someone who was there some time ago, and just can't let it go. Fair enough, I have one of those bogeymen in my closet too. If anyone asked me today, I would shy them away as well. That was some time ago though; ownerships, FAOs and even department heads change over time. What was true 3 years ago might or not be true today.
If RMJ is going there, we should perhaps be focussing on damage control. Things to do (and avoid) when a semester/workplace is starting to go sour. Everything short of running. And, as George so wisely points out, establishing the safety net just in case he does need to bail.
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@stil and latefordinner:
Here here! sounds like a hyperbolic rant to me. If you read between the lines it could well be any less-than-perfect uni job.
It probably isn't bad as a first gig. My first uni job could probably be described in such terms if I wanted to, but a lot of these gigs are what you make of them.
You've signed the contract, get on with it, make the most of it, it could be valuable experience (both in terms of teaching and living in China). If it sucks then start looking for other positions as soon as you land, maybe you can see out the first semester.
If it's really awful (eg: outright rip-off/unsafe etc...) then bail - hopefully we can establish a few contacts in GZ to help you out. Volunteers? PM the brotha.
And one last thing: take this kind of teacher reports with a LARGE ROCK OF SALT. Most uni jobs are less-than-ideal, but if the actual teaching goes well (funny how he didn't mention that side of things kkkkkkkkkk) then a stab can be made of it, while you're searching for that dream uni job.
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Read here:
http://www.teachenglishinasia.net/runawaytrike/bai-yun-university-guangzhou-china-bai-yun-xue-yuan
Read here:
http://forums.eslcafe.com/teacher/viewtopic.php?t=8888
among others.
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Some of the things complained about in those posts are the norm. Many universities are outside the cities - especially those universities establishing new campuses to comply with the gov't law about x amount of space per student.
Complaints about the FAO not taking people to the bank, post office or other places are strange. Why would the writer expect officials to do that? Yes, it is confusing being a stranger in a strange land with a strange language, but I can't see too many officials in other countries taking time from their workdays to run a new worker around the city. I would see it fair to ask the FAO to show me on my map where these places are. But generally most FTs gain their knowledge and get help from colleagues, other FTs or other teachers.
Pay problems definitely need to be sorted and FAST!
Montjoy hasn't told us that he has been contacting "Nancy' - so in the 2-3 years since those posts were made, many things could have changed, including the make up of the FAO. Fingers crossed that things have improved or that the writers were indulging in a bit of hyperbole...
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Hmm... in light of the above links, perhaps if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
I suppose the best advice, short of walking away from the contract, would be to be extremely vigilant when you go in there, and perhaps a little "lihai" if they start to try to pull tricks. Keep looking around for other jobs too, and have an exit stragegy.
That said, the posts are old, you could have a ball out there, especially as one of the posters speaks highly of the campus and the students.
Who knows. All speculation.
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Jeez!
Yes, I posted this shortly after I received it. If this isn't good enough for you, Lotus, go try the tolerance of the management over at Dave's ESL Cafe.
As for who it's from, not really relevant. A lot of people drift in and out of these pages, some members and some not. There's a lot of members I don't know well yet, and some non-members I know quite well. Having a network of friends and sources is something I actually consider to be a strength, and I don't feel strongly compelled to always have to explain.
However, it's very possible that someone simply didn't want to be the bearer of bad news. You simply have no idea how many hits like this I accept.
Of course, I have no control over the messages I receive, be it content or timing.
And, I clearly posted this as something to at least consider and explore further...NOT as Gospel.
Aaaand, the role of the FAO varies wildly from school to school. In some schools they do little more than recruit and handle visas and other major issues, but in many, many places they are charged- supposedly- with helping foreigners do complex (from a language standpoint) living functions such as banking, seeing a doctor, and other such support. I personally worked in a number of places where this was the case.
This may not happen where YOU work, but that doesn't mean it applies in all, or even most, employers...one of the many concepts I keep talking about but just don't seem to be sinking in. llllllllll
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To all the members of this Board:
I am not going to let Raoul take the hit for this. Not at all.
I beg your collective forgiveness that as one poster wrote I did not post the information on December 28, 2009 or whatever date he used as I wish to apologize for being in an intensive care unit in a hospital seriously ill. Please forgive me that I did not timely fly to this request and that I failed to meet Late for Dinner's and Lotus Eater's demand for immediate information. I am the person that sent Raoul that private message, because as I wrote Raoul, I did not see this message before and I did not wish to rain on this poor soul's parade.
Second, the information is not second-hand at all. It is not based on conjecture and it is not based on extremely dated information. It is based on a relatively recent series of dealings with this university, and with Miss Nancy Kwang and others. It is an experience that I regretfully must say was repeated by several colleagues of mine whom I recommended, unknowingly, to this university. It is an experience that has been repeated by others, totally unknown to me, who have shared their experiences on the Internet, and whose experiences have been so cowardly trashed by a certain number of posters on this thread.
I cannot state that my own experiences will be or have been repeated by others. But I will state that after all of my years in China, and I dare say that I have probably been here far longer than most on this Board, this was one of two most singularly negative experiences.
I cannot promise you that the sun rises in the East and sets in the West except to say that it often appears to be the case.
I cannot promise you that if you are bitten by a cobra, you will become deadly afflicted, although it does seem to be the case.
I cannot promise you that what P.T. Barnum said about a sucker being born every minute is true but it may be the case.
It remains true that there has been not even one teacher in ten years that this Institute has been hiring foreign teachers that has even considered returning for a second year. It remains exceptionally true that if 20 teachers start the term, 10 will evaporate within a few months and many more will be gone by the end of the term. It is true that this University, the campus of which is quite, quite beautiful, is at the end of a very obscure and remote bus line to Guangzhou which ceases to function after about 19h30 and the weekend hours of which are even more thinly spread. It remains true that paycheck issues are exceptionally, exceptionally serious. It remains true that one may arrive with a signed contract-in-hand to discover that there is no position, ad infinitum.
It remains equally true the living quarters for the foreign teachers are abysmal at best, horrific at worst and this is fact and easily demonstrated.
I have been deeply offended by the responses of some in this thread, deeply offended, who have sought to impugn, to denigrate and to belittle the messenger rather to seriously consider the message.
Raoul, my very, very, very real apologies to you. As for the others, well, caveat emptor.
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Yes, I posted this shortly after I received it.
RD - where in my post did I imply you didn't post it as soon as you got it?? I would in no way think that you would hold back such vital information for one second!!
I agree - we all do the best we can with what we've got, and it was sad that circumstances prevented the information from being supplied earlier. I'm also glad that you друг всего мира were out of intensive care, feeling well enough to advise us about Horizon recruitment on the 6th January. agagagagag
I would still suggest that schools like this be written up in our school review section.
Do we know if Montjoy as seen the post in question? Has he been able to make further inquiries? Has he been able to confirm anything about some of the statements? Is he looking again??
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See? That's why the source is needed. The information is useless.
What the hell are you thinking Raoul? We are supposed to trust Cyrillic Foreign Guy? What for? He can't even promise that the sun will rise in the east.
Sorry for dumpling on you Cyrillic dude, hope you are feeling well after your intensive stay.
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My friend, please take a deep breath. We're pretty much all on the same side here, and as you're just out of hospital you have better uses for your energy. I sincerely wish you well, and I offer my apologies for the perceived offense. None intended, but I can see how you might regard it as an attack upon your integrity. Again, not intended as an atack; neither on your person nor the message, but questioning the form of delivery. Can we let this go? Let's try to focus on the constructive, the common goal. As I said, I've got one o'them bogeys in my closet too, and if I ever hear of someone asking for info about that place, you can bet that I will rant too. Safer bet than that tricky sun up there.
However, it's very possible that someone simply didn't want to be the bearer of bad news. You simply have no idea how many hits like this I accept.
I wondered what it might be, and I recognise that at some point a mod has to use his discretion. RD, I said that I trusted your judgement and meant what I said. bjbjbjbjbj If I wanted to kiss mod butt, I would still be at the greasy.
Come to think of it; if I ever develop a strong, really appetite for attacking the messanger, that's where I'll go.
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bkbkbkbkbk
Cyrillic Dude, I can understand how you could have interpreted comments here as a personal attack on your credibility. Please understand that the Saloon enjoys a huge readership, and comments about a school, particularly negative ones, carry a lot of weight. We've all worked with FTs who were utter malcontents, bringing misfortune onto themselves, then blaming everyone else; most of us have also met hooray-for-everything pollyannas who'd write rave reviews for federal prison (free room, board, library and weightroom, huzzah!).
To glean the truth as best we can, we question statements, try to find out more, and yes, even play devil's advocate. It can't have been fun for you to read, but I hope you believe the only motive was due diligence. We want to keep our members and readers out of trouble and danger, but we also want to avoid blacklisting a decent school.
Montjoy, I second George and Latefor. You've got a contract and you're on your way, so go take a look. At the same time, have a plan B. That's a very densely populated part of China, awash in schools of all kinds, so so have your next move all mapped out before you arrive, should the place be even half as bad as Cyrillic says it is.
And have a plan in case it's actually alright.
And don't worry overmuch. You have dozens of folks here to back you up. English work grows on trees in China, no exaggeration.
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bkbkbkbkbk
Cyrillic Dude, I can understand how you could have interpreted comments here as a personal attack on your credibility. Please understand that the Saloon enjoys a huge readership, and comments about a school, particularly negative ones, carry a lot of weight. We've all worked with FTs who were utter malcontents, bringing misfortune onto themselves, then blaming everyone else; most of us have also met hooray-for-everything pollyannas who'd write rave reviews for federal prison (free room, board, library and weightroom, huzzah!).
To glean the truth as best we can, we question statements, try to find out more, and yes, even play devil's advocate. It can't have been fun for you to read, but I hope you believe the only motive was due diligence. We want to keep our members and readers out of trouble and danger, but we also want to avoid blacklisting a decent school.
Montjoy, I second George and Latefor. You've got a contract and you're on your way, so go take a look. At the same time, have a plan B. That's a very densely populated part of China, awash in schools of all kinds, so so have your next move all mapped out before you arrive, should the place be even half as bad as Cyrillic says it is.
And have a plan in case it's actually alright.
And don't worry overmuch. You have dozens of folks here to back you up. English work grows on trees in China, no exaggeration.
Well said Con.
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Some of the logic involved by certain posters defending their attack mode positions is absolutely specious. In the interest of impartiality, to paraphrase one person, it is necessary to trash, debase, abuse, vilify, etc, etc., ad nauseum a poster who has come here in good faith to offer information. Such logic is breathtaking in its nastiness and repulsive in the extreme at least to me. One need not waste time nor energy to come here to endure such comportment. It speaks much more about the vilifier than about the poster indeed.
In all of my years in China, I have learned one important thing : when it comes down to trusting a Chinese person over a foreigner, I will choose the Chinese. I have seen foreigners here in China the likes of whom would have never, ever graced my doorway at home.
Enough said. I just remain so furious about what has been written here.
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it is necessary to trash, debase, abuse, vilify, etc, etc., ad nauseum a poster who has come here in good faith to offer information. Such logic is breathtaking in its nastiness and repulsive in the extreme at least to me.
What a load of bullshit! bibibibibi
Your post was questioned, dissected, agreed with, disagreed with. That's the way the mop flops here. No-one vilified,debased, trashed, abused you. It's all in your tiny, little imagination.
Do you actually think you are God's gift to FTs in China? Do you actually believe your own hype? Do you actually believe that your opinion is the only right opinion, and shouldn't be questioned? If you can't handle a poster disagreeing with you, there is something wrong!
BTW, this is an English Forum. Please find yourself a handle that can be written with an English keyboard!
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Well said George. I wonder why anyone needs to get his knickers into such a twist, over such a minor issue as not everyone agreeing. We all have opinions, and are entitled to express them.
And sorry Cyrillic dude, I have to also agree with George, re your name. This is supposedly an English language forum, and we cannot even type your name.
Lin
Zhaoqing, Guangdong.
bxbxbxbxbx
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It's all getting a bit silly now.
Yup, and not terribly helpful to rmontjoy.
While comments may have been misguided, I'm certain the spirit behind them was that of wanting to help the newcomer to China.
Given the reaction of Senior Cyrillic I'm now going back to my original position of thinking that the review may be somewhat exaggerated.
I hope it is, not for the sake of vilifying anybody, but for the sake of another member's life in China for the upcoming year.
@rmontjoy: if you're still on these boards, have a look carefully at the online reviews, they may well be correct, but also look at the advice the other members have given vis-a-vis what to do if it is a shitpit.
Ignore the rest.
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Lotus, my apologies. I didn't read quite deeply enough, and some kinds of comment from some directions make me see red pretty fast...too fast, in this case, and I am sorry.
As for why I posted the warning: I got a message from a member in good standing. The report included specific details, not just vague rambling. It was supported by similar accounts elsewhere on the ESL internet. It didn't occur to me that such a thing would be sent to me simply to spoil things for our friend Rmontjoy, and I'm still not conclusively convinced this was the case. I'm keenly aware of the allegations regarding PD's history on other forums, but I also tend to give everyone who comes here a clean slate.
Did I make a mistake? I dunno....maybe. I do that sometimes, ya know.
But when confronted with such a report, my inclination is to let it be seen- with the proper cautions- and hope it's wrong, rather than sit on it and let someone else find out the hard way it's true.
So, I stand by my decision.
And PD...thanks, but no apology needed.
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if this is even half true, how would this school stay in existence? The education value must be schneider.
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Excellent question...but in China, administrative malfeasance and academic schneiderism are very, very common...and they ALL manage to stay open.
Especially considering that way too many prospective teachers do little or no research about where they're headed. Too often, it's not a reasoned and optimized decision, it's a 300-foot screaming cliff dive into The Lagoon of Stupid Judgment. bibibibibi
To a large extent it's these poor bastards, who don't know any better, that keep the weasel schools afloat. llllllllll
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On the other side of the coin, in my first year here, I worked for what was deemed a terrible company on par with the one in question. Yet, I had always said I enjoyed my time, was paid all my money and received a release letter.
A) I enjoyed my time - but I had to endure some not so pleasent moments. Welcome to the real world
B) was paid all my money - but I had to check everything and fight for every quai. Once they realized I could add and subtract two numbers, they quickly stopped trying to skim
C) received a release letter - with the worst possible marks allowable. It said I was a bad teacher. They also asked me to stay
There was even a thread for where I'm employed now and it was disected, bi-spected and inspected with a fine tooth comb. I had to explain some of the script written. Like someone said earlier, its all on how you look at things. I
Montjoy, all I can say is be prepared and know when to fight and when to let things go. You don't sound like a raw rookie, so you'll be fine. There's a network of fine folks here who could give you a hand