Got a Job!

but feel I must pass on an excerpt from a private communication I received about this school...

Probably as quickly as he could.

I agree - but whoever sent it has either been contacted by someone here or is someone who comes here to read/is a member.

The source needs to considered too. Is this someone you know and trust Raoul? Is it a PM from a regular here? Not asking who but ... WOW

This is seriously strong and would effectively keep anyone that visits this site from taking a job there.

Small apartments, pay issues and a crap FAO? That's most schools in China.

Good luck Montjoy. I suggest you try and find out more.

Also there is no mention of being an illegal employer in this diatribe. If you have a residence permit, that alone keeps it form being the worst place to work in Guangzhou for a newbie.

some of you have just echoed my own concerns.
RD, I trust your judgement in posting that; and taken in context, no doubt the person who sent you that message wanted to see it posted for all the world to see. However I still have qualms about this. Why hide behind a pm, why can't the poster put this up him/herself? Still at that school? Been threatened by heavies in GZ/GD? I can think of several reasons, but taking the pm route does beg the Q.
 
RD's worst experience 10x? <Sigh> I do dislike hyperbole. Let's just say it sounds bad enough to avoid.

There are myriad and myriad reports about this school from ex-victims all over the Internet.

Are there? I only looked for about 15 minutes, and I found a report from 2007, followed by a thread that lasted into the fall of 2008. Not a lot, but enough to make me cautious. RMJ, have you done your due diligence? what have former teachers had to say about Baiyun?

Sounds to me like an aggrieved former teacher, someone who was there some time ago, and just can't let it go. Fair enough, I have one of those bogeymen in my closet too. If anyone asked me today, I would shy them away as well. That was some time ago though; ownerships, FAOs and even department heads change over time. What was true 3 years ago might or not be true today.

If RMJ is going there, we should perhaps be focussing on damage control. Things to do (and avoid) when a semester/workplace is starting to go sour. Everything short of running. And, as George so wisely points out, establishing the safety net just in case he does need to bail.

@stil and latefordinner:

Here here! sounds like a hyperbolic rant to me. If you read between the lines it could well be any less-than-perfect uni job.

It probably isn't bad as a first gig. My first uni job could probably be described in such terms if I wanted to, but a lot of these gigs are what you make of them.

You've signed the contract, get on with it, make the most of it, it could be valuable experience (both in terms of teaching and living in China). If it sucks then start looking for other positions as soon as you land, maybe you can see out the first semester.

If it's really awful (eg: outright rip-off/unsafe etc...) then bail - hopefully we can establish a few contacts in GZ to help you out. Volunteers? PM the brotha.

And one last thing: take this kind of teacher reports with a LARGE ROCK OF SALT. Most uni jobs are less-than-ideal, but if the actual teaching goes well (funny how he didn't mention that side of things  ) then a stab can be made of it, while you're searching for that dream uni job.

Read here:

http://www.teachenglishinasia.net/runawaytrike/bai-yun-university-guangzhou-china-bai-yun-xue-yuan

Read here:

http://forums.eslcafe.com/teacher/viewtopic.php?t=8888

among others.

Some of the things complained about in those posts are the norm.  Many universities are outside the cities - especially those universities establishing new campuses to comply with the gov't law about x amount of space per student.  

Complaints about the FAO not taking people to the bank, post office or other places are strange.  Why would the writer expect officials to do that?  Yes, it is confusing being a stranger in a strange land with a strange language, but I can't see too many officials in other countries taking time from their workdays to run a new worker around the city.  I would see it fair to ask the FAO to show me on my map where these places are.  But generally most FTs gain their knowledge and get help from colleagues, other FTs or other teachers.

Pay problems definitely need to be sorted and FAST!  

Montjoy hasn't told us that he has been contacting "Nancy' - so in the 2-3 years since those posts were made, many things could have changed, including the make up of the FAO.  Fingers crossed that things have improved or that the writers were indulging in a bit of hyperbole...

Hmm... in light of the above links, perhaps if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

I suppose the best advice, short of walking away from the contract, would be to be extremely vigilant when you go in there, and perhaps a little "lihai" if they start to try to pull tricks. Keep looking around for other jobs too, and have an exit stragegy.

That said, the posts are old, you could have a ball out there, especially as one of the posters speaks highly of the campus and the students.

Who knows. All speculation.

Jeez!
Yes, I posted this shortly after I received it. If this isn't good enough for you, Lotus, go try the tolerance of the management over at Dave's ESL Cafe.

As for who it's from, not really relevant. A lot of people drift in and out of these pages, some members and some not. There's a lot of members I don't know well yet, and some non-members I know quite well. Having a network of friends and sources is something I actually consider to be a strength, and I don't feel strongly compelled to always have to explain.

However, it's very possible that someone simply didn't want to be the bearer of bad news. You simply have no idea how many hits like this I accept.

Of course, I have no control over the messages I receive, be it content or timing.
And, I clearly posted this as something to at least consider and explore further...NOT as Gospel.

Aaaand, the role of the FAO varies wildly from school to school. In some schools they do little more than recruit and handle visas and other major issues, but in many, many places they are charged- supposedly- with helping foreigners do complex (from a language standpoint) living functions such as banking, seeing a doctor, and other such support. I personally worked in a number of places where this was the case.
This may not happen where YOU work, but that doesn't mean it applies in all, or even most, employers...one of the many concepts I keep talking about but just don't seem to be sinking in.

To all the members of this Board:

I am not going to let Raoul take the hit for this.  Not at all.

I beg your collective forgiveness that as one poster wrote I did not post the information on December 28, 2009 or whatever date he used as I wish to apologize for being in an intensive care unit in a hospital seriously ill.  Please forgive me that I did not timely fly to this request and that I failed to meet Late for Dinner's and Lotus Eater's demand for immediate information.  I am the person that sent Raoul that private message, because as I wrote Raoul, I did not see this message before and I did not wish to rain on this poor soul's parade.

Second, the information is not second-hand at all.  It is not based on conjecture and it is not based on extremely dated information.  It is based on a relatively recent series of dealings with this university, and with Miss Nancy Kwang and others. It is an experience that I regretfully must say was repeated by several colleagues of mine whom I recommended, unknowingly, to this university.  It is an experience that has been repeated by others, totally unknown to me, who have shared their experiences on the Internet, and whose experiences have been so cowardly trashed by a certain number of posters on this thread.

I cannot state that my own experiences will be or have been repeated by others.  But I will state that after all of my years in China, and I dare say that I have probably been here far longer than most on this Board, this was one of two most singularly negative experiences.

I cannot promise you that the sun rises in the East and sets in the West except to say that it often appears to be the case.

I cannot promise you that if you are bitten by a cobra, you will become deadly afflicted, although it does seem to be the case.

I cannot promise you that what P.T. Barnum said about a sucker being born every minute is true but it may be the case.

It remains true that there has been not even one teacher in ten years that this Institute has been hiring foreign teachers that has even considered returning for a second year. It remains exceptionally true that if 20 teachers start the term, 10 will evaporate within a few months and many more will be gone by the end of the term.  It is true that this University, the campus of which is quite, quite beautiful, is at the end of a very obscure and remote bus line to Guangzhou which ceases to function after about 19h30 and the weekend hours of which are even more thinly spread.  It remains true that paycheck issues are exceptionally, exceptionally serious.  It remains true that one may arrive with a signed contract-in-hand to discover that there is no position, ad infinitum.
It remains equally true the living quarters for the foreign teachers are abysmal at best, horrific at worst and this is fact and easily demonstrated.

I have been deeply offended by the responses of some in this thread, deeply offended, who have sought to impugn, to denigrate and to belittle the messenger rather to seriously consider the message.

Raoul, my very, very, very real apologies to you. As for the others, well, caveat emptor.

Yes, I posted this shortly after I received it.

  RD - where in my post did I imply you didn't post it as soon as you got it??  I would in no way think that you would hold back such vital information for one second!! 

I agree - we all do the best we can with what we've got, and it was sad that circumstances prevented the information from being supplied earlier.  I'm also glad that you  друг всего мира were out of intensive care, feeling well enough to advise us about Horizon recruitment on the 6th January.    

I would still suggest that schools like this be written up in our school review section.


Do we know if Montjoy as seen the post in question?  Has he been able to make further inquiries?  Has he been able to confirm anything about some of the statements?  Is he looking again??

See? That's why the source is needed. The information is useless.

What the hell are you thinking Raoul? We are supposed to trust Cyrillic Foreign Guy? What for? He can't even promise that the sun will rise in the east.

Sorry for dumpling on you Cyrillic dude, hope you are feeling well after your intensive stay.

My friend, please take a deep breath. We're pretty much all on the same side here, and as you're just out of hospital you have better uses for your energy. I sincerely wish you well, and I offer my apologies for the perceived offense. None intended, but I can see how you might regard it as an attack upon your integrity. Again, not intended as an atack; neither on your person nor the message, but questioning the form of delivery. Can we let this go? Let's try to focus on the constructive, the common goal. As I said, I've got one o'them bogeys in my closet too, and if I ever hear of someone asking for info about that place, you can bet that I will rant too. Safer bet than that tricky sun up there.

However, it's very possible that someone simply didn't want to be the bearer of bad news. You simply have no idea how many hits like this I accept.

I wondered what it might be, and I recognise that at some point a mod has to use his discretion. RD, I said that I trusted your judgement and meant what I said.  If I wanted to kiss mod butt, I would still be at the greasy.
Come to think of it; if I ever develop a strong, really appetite for attacking the messanger, that's where I'll go.

 

Cyrillic Dude, I can understand how you could have interpreted comments here as a personal attack on your credibility.  Please understand that the Saloon enjoys a huge readership, and comments about a school, particularly negative ones, carry a lot of weight.  We've all worked with FTs who were utter malcontents, bringing misfortune onto themselves, then blaming everyone else; most of us have also met hooray-for-everything pollyannas who'd write rave reviews for federal prison (free room, board, library and weightroom, huzzah!).

To glean the truth as best we can, we question statements, try to find out more, and yes, even play devil's advocate.  It can't have been fun for you to read, but I hope you believe the only motive was due diligence.  We want to keep our members and readers out of trouble and danger, but we also want to avoid blacklisting a decent school.

Montjoy, I second George and Latefor.  You've got a contract and you're on your way, so go take a look.  At the same time, have a plan B.  That's a very densely populated part of China, awash in schools of all kinds, so so have your next move all mapped out before you arrive, should the place be even half as bad as Cyrillic says it is.

And have a plan in case it's actually alright.

And don't worry overmuch.  You have dozens of folks here to back you up.  English work grows on trees in China, no exaggeration.