Fiscal preparedness

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zero

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Fiscal preparedness
« on: September 14, 2010, 06:12:00 AM »
Since no one else started it, I guess I will give it a try.

Here are some potential issues. Maybe others can think of more.

-Retirement. Are you able to save up on your own? By being out of the country, are you potentially creating issues for the retirement plan offered by your government?* A lot of people dismiss U.S. Social Security, saying they don't expect to ever receive anything, but I don't think that's  accurate. The federal government would probably find somewhere else to shortchange its people, rather than denying a bunch of elderly voters their retirement checks. Social Security benefits may not be a huge amount, but they're important. All that said, you'll want to be saving up on your own, too.

-Health insurance. A lot of medical care can be had for you and your family at a low price in China. But if something truly serious comes up, like cancer, a heart attack or an accident, the costs could still exceed what you can pay. And the care you could afford may not be what you would want. In such a case, if you are American, heading back home may not help you much, since, presumably, you won't have insurance there, either. A scary situation. Even more so if you have children. Perhaps members could share what they have learned about the health insurance plans available to expats.

-School fees. On the whole, westerners seem averse to Chinese public schools. Some, however, have tried it, at least for the lower grades. I have not heard of any westerners letting their kids go all the way through high school in Chinese public schools, though perhaps some do. Some do homeschooling. ESL teachers generally cannot afford international schools. The school situation, in general, seems to be a common reason for westerners to eventually pack up and go home. Members with kids: What's your solution?

-Visa issues. People with mixed Chinese/western families always deal with visa issues because China does not recognize dual citizenship. For Americans, at least, ensuring that the entire family has freedom of movement between the countries is a balancing act indeed, with no really good solution.

-Returning home. If you're spending time in China, you'll want to have a plan for someday returning home, unless you truly plan to stay forever and retire and die in China, which would be a whole other thread or two. How will you transition back to your home country? Will you have career prospects? Will you have savings to cushion the move?

I don't think there are any perfects answers for these questions. It's more complicated if you have kids. Most of these issues are not China-specific, but apply to anyone living away from home base. The truth is, if stability and safety are essential to you, you're probably better off not living abroad. The other truth is, the next-best answer is to have lots of money to throw at these issues. For those of us who won't be getting a full expat posting any time soon, international-school teaching seems to be a pretty fair solution. It does have some of its own issues, which could be addressed in yet another thread.

*I don't know how it works in other countries, but in the U.S., you need to work 10 years in order to qualify for Social Security benefits at age 65 or 67 or 115 or whatever it is they have raised the age to nowadays. The amount is determined based on how much you earned over your 35 top-earning years, with "missing" years, such as those you spend overseas, averaging in as zeroes.

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Raoul F. Duke

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Re: Fiscal preparedness
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2010, 06:58:45 AM »
Oooch, these are indeed complex issues that rarely have good solutions... bibibibibi

Retirement is a strong argument, in my mind, to NOT stay in China forever. It's a big part of why I left.
For one thing, I certainly don't want to be old and sick there, having to rely on those hospitals...and I submit that you really don't, either. That means being able to retire, at least to some extent, back in Old Country.
Chinese employers are certainly not going to offer you any retirement benefits...the Chinese don't really want us retiring there anyway. This means you need to work back home long enough to have something like a 401K to supplement Social Security benefits. Anything you add to this from China will be from your own savings...and on a Chinese salary, your contributions here are not likely to be significantly large.

For health insurance, you might possibly get something from your employer, especially at a university...but it's not likely to be anything like what you're used to, and will still be based on those often-horrible Chinese hospitals. It's strongly recommended that expats in China buy Med-Evac insurance and, if you can afford it, expat medical insurance (generally good anywhere but the USA) that will get you to a real doctor and a decent hospital in Hong Kong, South Korea, Japan, Thailand, or many other places.

Schools...I'd be OK with a kid in Chinese schools up through about the 2nd grade. After that, the indoctrination becomes too intense and the shoddy education standards start to be a factor. It's also entirely in Chinese. Also, even the public schools won't be cheap, not for you. You'll have to fork out a lot to get your kid into school, especially the allegedly-better end of the Chinese public-school spectrum. Schools are indeed a major reason why families often leave China early.

Visas...as the spouse of a Chinese citizen, visas should be fairly easy for you. It's Work Permits that'll be harder to get. If your child is a citizen of your home country, travel and residence should also be easy for them. Keeping your Chinese spouse always able to travel will be very difficult, and for many people is not a realistic expectation. This is at least doubly true if you're American...bringing your spouse home to stay is doable, usually, but getting them in for a visit almost never happens.

Returning home...doing this while still pretty young will make things the easiest. Coming back in your 50s or older could be tough unless you have a good retirement income. Be aware that spending time in China as a teacher will mean precisely dick to hiring managers, and having such a thing on your history could even have a negative impact on any later career development...and the older you are, the more true this will be.

These are the hard realities as I came to see them. Wish I had better news. ananananan
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Re: Fiscal preparedness
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2010, 01:39:40 PM »
I agree with Raoul and zero pretty much. We're planning on a return to the States sometime within the next 2 years or so, while my husband and I are both young enough to still salvage our careers (for my husband that'll actually mean building one from scratch, since I doubt there's much market in the States for singers who can't really sing in English).

My husband is kind of down on China and the Chinese system these days and while America has its problems we're both keen on our children having a "Western" education and options outside of China that my husband didn't have at their age. I'd also be ok with Chinese schools until maybe second grade or so, but I think much longer than that and the transition between the school systems would be pretty tough, s they are so radically different. I'd be fine with international schools, but I can't afford even international kindergartens now, and in order to become qualified to teach at one it will still mean going back and getting public school certified. We won't rule out that option although my first choice is an academic career that allows me to come to China often but not necessarily live here permanently.

I think China is great and all but for a family, or even a single person who has to worry about retirement, I just don't think it is a realistic long term choice. I know there are others who are choosing to raise their families in China for good so I hope they'll chime in on this thread.


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Escaped Lunatic

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Re: Fiscal preparedness
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2010, 07:53:00 PM »
Egad.  We need a whole folder just for these questions.  ahahahahah

Pretty much, there are two groups of expats here.  Most plan to be in China for awhile, but eventually plan to go home.  A few of us (myself included) went off the deep end and decided that China is home.  I'm not sure what the exact split is, but I'd guess about 90/10 or even higher in favor of China being temporary instead of permanent.  As for short-term to long-term among the temporary camp, there's no telling.  I've seen people change their minds in both directions pretty often.

For those who are long-term to permanent and marry a local, the spouse visa is the simplest way to stay in the country.  The problem is that it's like a tourist visa in that it doesn't let you work legally.  Sure, you can pick up private one-on-one gigs, but for a stable income, you really need a proper residence permit that typically begins with a Z visa.

For those who plan very long-term to permanent, there is the very rare "Chinese Permanent Residence Permit".  There are about 4 or 5-ish ways to qualify for this (Chinese regs can be a little vague at times bjbjbjbjbj).  One is to invest a PILE of cash in the right region or industry or an even bigger pile of cash just about anywhere in China.  Another is to have lived here and been married for at least 5 years to a local.  What I haven't figured out yet is if there are sub-types of these permits. Would the Permanent Residence Permit for marriage be the equivalent of the "too bad you can't work in China" spouse visa?  Obviously, the Permanent Residence Permit for an investor or someone working in a "key position (another way to qualify) is allowed to work on their permit.


Soooo many other topics from Zero.  Guess I'll do a starter on savings for now.

Retirement, inside or outside of China:  Social Security (or the equivalent in most western countries) isn't exactly in the best of shape.  I'm not ready to throw in with the "it will 100% fail and pay nothing" doomsayers, but there's ZERO chance that it can continue as it is in the USA.  The money just isn't there.  Sure, the government can print more money, but that leads to inflation.  Social Security is automatically adjusted for inflation, so that means print more money to pay off the old people, have more inflation, owe the old people more money, print more money to pay off the old people, etc., etc.

Using my insanely provided foresight, I'll predict that there will have to be a very big, very painful adjustments over the next 10-20 years.  Benefits will be "income adjusted" and "asset adjusted".  That means that if you have another source of income, your social security will be slashed.  If you have assets, even things like land that are not exactly easy to spend, your payments will be adjusted (downwards, always downwards).  Even if you are destitute, you won't be getting as much buying power as you expect when you check that annual statement they usually send.  Those inflation adjustments will be cut or eliminated, either directly or through manipulation of the numbers.  The government (probably) won't let you starve, but there are stark fiscal issues standing between you and what you have been promised.

Thus, you need a plan to cover yourself.  If I'm wrong, this plan will make your retirement nicer and you can buy some luxuries with all that social security money you'll be getting.  If I'm right, a good plan makes the difference between a nice retirement and living in a cheap trailer park (or worse).

It doesn't matter how old you are or what your income level is.  Start a savings plan NOW if you don't have one (if you do, it's time for an upgrade).  You need to put away a healthy chunk of your income EACH AND EVERY month.  I'm not talking 4 or 5% of your income.  You need a lot more than that.  Find some fat in your budget and trim it.  Personally, I put well over 20% of my gross income into long-term savings and more than 10% into short-term savings.  I don't live like a monk, but I also don't throw money away (except on charitable donations, but that's another story).

One very important note - this is going to be a little bit like a diet.  If you decide to go on a diet and starve yourself, hunger will win and you'll be face down in a pile of snacks within 2 weeks (probably far less).  If you go on a "fiscal diet" to the point where you feel "fiscally starved", you'll probably fail.  Start small and work your way up steadily.

Here's the plan.  When your next pay arrives, move 10% to a SEPARATE location (bank account, safe deposit box, under your mattress) immediately.  Murphy is aware of your plan and he has many laws available to screw it up for you if you give him time.  Don't wait until later.  Do it the same day you get the money.  Don't pool it with your other money.  If your savings in in the same place as your spending money, it's too easy to spend or miscalculate how much is savings.  This is your long-term savings.  Unless you are about to starve, get foreclosed on, or need to pay for life saving medical care, DO NOT SPEND IT.

Try to live reasonably well on the other 90%, but look for things you really don't want/need that you waste money on (admit it, we ALL waste a lot of money on things that just aren't worth what we pay for them).  See how much cash you've got left at the end of the month (I'm going to mostly use month here since China tends to operate on monthly pay instead of every two weeks).  Take the remainder.  Set aside a reasonable amount to save up for annual expenses (back in the USA, property taxes, the satellite dish bills, etc. would qualify).  Put 1/3 of what's left into long-term savings, 1/3 into short term savings, and 1/3 to a "save or spend however you like to reward yourself for having anything left.

So, not you've got 4 piles of money.  Long-term savings, short-term savings, annual expenses, and reward yourself.  Good.  You're on the path to fiscal Lunacy. ahahahahah

If your needs are more complex, you can subdivide the piles or start up a "quarterly expenses" pile.  For example, if you want a car, that's either from short-term savings or else start a "car fund" pile of money.  As an extreme example, I know one guy who isn't any good with money management.  If it's all in one place, all he sees is that he's got plenty of money now to buy things that he wants.  To solve this, his GF grabs all of his money each time he gets paid and divides it up into 12 or more envelopes to make sure that he always has enough for various expenses.

Let's say that that final amount you added into long-term savings at the end of the month was 4% of your monthly income.  In theory, you should go to 14% when you get paid for the next month.  If you feel brave, you can go for it.  The drawback is that months can vary.  It's probably better to stick to adding 2% to your original 10% for 12% to be taken out when the next month's pay arrives. This gives you some buffer and let's your budget adjust more gradually to the changes.

What should your final % for long-term savings be?  It's hard to say, but work to increase it slowly and steadily.  You need to balance your present and your potential future.

A couple of tricks to help increase your savings without feeling the pain.

1.  If you are paid every 2 weeks, that means you get 26 paychecks per year, but have 12 months.  Two months per year, you get 3 checks.  Some expenses happen every day, so won't be affected by this.  A lot of expenses (rent, mortgage, utilities) are monthly.  For those two checks, take out what you normally would for long term savings.  Then take out what you normally would need for monthly expenses - this is your "extra money" from those two checks.  Divide that up between your long-term savings, your short-term savings, and make certain to put some in the reward yourself pile - after all, you did show up to work to earn it.

2.  If you get a raise (or a new job with more income), make VERY shore to reward yourself, but don't go overboard.  So very many people gain 20% in their income, but then add 20% (or more) to their expenses.  If your income rises 20%, grab half of that for savings and enjoy the other half however you see fit.  Your lifestyle benefits immediately, but you are also are setting aside money you will need later.


That's probably enough torment for now.  If anyone likes this, let me know and I'll add more.
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Monkey King

Re: Fiscal preparedness
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2010, 10:13:42 PM »
This is great, thanks, more please!

I actually have a little saved, and one thing I find overwhelming is the how, where and when of getting started buying property.  E.g. is always a good idea to get on the property ladder? Is it better to have someplace back home (UK for me) or cast your net wider (S.E. Asia, cheaper parts of Europe...or China  aoaoaoaoao)?.  I have a (foreign) friend with a place in Chengdu and a place in Chongqing as he reckons they'll be China's next boomtowns...

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JShep

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Re: Fiscal preparedness
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2010, 05:16:23 AM »
That's probably enough torment for now.  If anyone likes this, let me know and I'll add more.


Brilliant. bfbfbfbfbf Let's have more.

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zero

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Re: Fiscal preparedness
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2010, 05:39:59 AM »
This is great, thanks, more please!

I actually have a little saved, and one thing I find overwhelming is the how, where and when of getting started buying property.  E.g. is always a good idea to get on the property ladder? Is it better to have someplace back home (UK for me) or cast your net wider (S.E. Asia, cheaper parts of Europe...or China  aoaoaoaoao)?.  I have a (foreign) friend with a place in Chengdu and a place in Chongqing as he reckons they'll be China's next boomtowns...

I'm against the type of property investment you mention. Probably better to start a new thread if anyone is interested in discussing property investment in China at length, though.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 02:34:54 PM by zero »

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zero

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Re: Fiscal preparedness
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2010, 02:28:22 PM »
Here are some ideas I have about how to live in China long-term, if that's what one really wants to do. My thinking is families-with-kids-centric. It is also U.S.-citizen-centric, since I am one.

-Expatriate job package. Solves most problems. Most of us aren't on track for these jobs. Also, they seem to be two- or three-year postings, not usually long-term China positions.

-International school jobs. Solves a lot of problems. Likely to provide health insurance and maybe retirement benefits. Salary is high enough for significant savings. You can enroll your kid(s) there. But you need two years of home-country experience to qualify, usually, and that is not easy to get in the U.S. right now because the job market for teachers is horrid. Also, international schools like to hire teaching couples. They like to take families where there ratio is one enrolled child or less per teacher. So if you are a one-teacher family and have two or three kids, could be tough to find a job. I learned this on internationalschoolsreview.com. Another caveat: Such jobs entail full-time hours and hard work. Yuck!

-Telecommuting job.* Could be full-time for a company, with benefits, or freelance work. Could involve running a small company (import/export?) of your own. Maybe you could spend part of your time in China and part in your home country. If you have school-age kids, maybe you could let them go to school in your motherland and the family could spend summers in China. Perhaps spend a full school year in China now and then -- long enough to expose them to Chinese language and culture, short enough that they will not get indoctrinated. Your work-at-home endeavors should ideally be turning pretty good coin in order to allow such travel and flexibility. There are some websites devoted to "location-independent" careers.

-ESL. If you are single, or married with no kids, this could be workable if you get to the high end of the field and work a lot. If you'll be in China long-term, you'll want to save for retirement and probably buy some health insurance. I’d shoot for earnings in the 20,000 to 30,000 range per month if living in a major city. If you have kids, you might want health insurance for them, too. Also school fees and college savings. You're looking at either local schools or home schooling -- two options neither of which I like. For international schools you'll need household income well above what an English teacher can make even in the best-case scenario.

-Later-career adventure. If your kids are done with high school and you have some savings, why not ditch the rat race and head for China? I'd still want to earn enough to contribute to retirement. The disadvantage: Buying your own health insurance gets more expensive as you age, just as your risk of health problems increases.

-Retiring to China. China's visa policies aren't set up for this. To do it you'll need a Chinese spouse. If the spouse should die before you do? Better get packing. Health care is also an issue. You'll get what you can afford, at hit-or-miss quality. Back in the U.S., Medicare would at least get you into quality hospitals for bypasses and cancer treatment and such. On the other hand, at current rates, your Social Security check will afford a pretty good quality of life in the Middle Kingdom.

-Hong Kong. If you like China, but are discouraged by your lack of long-term prospects there, maybe you can consider Hong Kong. It has much of what’s missing from the mainland. For one, it has a direct, viable route to permanent residency: seven years and you’re in! Health care is modern and accessible. As I understand, there is even universal care, overlaid by a private market. No wonder the city is full of foreigners. You could raise kids there, and they could actually stay and work in Hong Kong themselves someday. However, you’ll probably need serious qualifications, teaching or otherwise, to work there. The cost of living is high. It’s a fast-paced, high-stress place to be. And the vibe isn’t the same as on the mainland. Still, truly an east-meets-west kind of place.

Those are my ideas. Do with them what you will!

*I like the telecommuting option. Good work if you can get it.

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Escaped Lunatic

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Re: Fiscal preparedness
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2010, 02:42:49 PM »
Just a quick note on property investment to cover the questions without diverting the thread.

If you've got the money, it's worth considering.  "Evil landlord" is a pretty good job once you have enough rental units.

The main drawbacks are twofold.

1.  It's a lot more work than many people suspect.  If you can hire people to do all the maintenance, collect the rent in the face of terribly sad stories, etc., good, but those people can sometimes rip you off worse than bad tenants.

2.  If you own property in the US, you've seen what happened to the value in the last couple of years.  China's prices have escalated at a tremendous rate.  There's a good chance of some sort of bubble popping in the next year or so.  This could result in a small fall of prices, or a huge slump.  If you want to get in the game now, you could be buying just before a giant mortgage crisis.  If you wait, price increases may just slow down a little before taking off again at an even faster rate.

Personally, I am hoping to buy my own place here in a year or two.  I'll consider whether or not to become an evil landlord later on.
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ting

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Re: Fiscal preparedness
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2010, 03:29:42 PM »
Re; hong kong living.  not so, 'just stay 7 years and your'e in permanently'.  must have long term work permit for 7 years (maybe other conditions) so just hanging around , trotting over to macau every 87 days won't help at all for permanency. but i like hk despite some of the same governmental problems as on the mainland. food more expensive but hk much, much cleaner than mainland. hk folks certainly more civil; mainland folks, many, hardly above cow barn standards regarding public hygiene although they think a bath one a week keeps them forever sparkling. huge personal dependency problem in mainland, less in hk. the ccp govt tells the masses what to think and they follow, follow, follow. how can an individual, or nation of people, rise above the past if they only follow the leader and remain ignorant. buying property in hk transparent and stable, not like the mainland. hk law at least has 100 yrs of british influence. mainland has no law beyond the local and current government decision, and for sure, the individual is no more than 'dried dog sh*t on the street'. i found china  curious, cheap, momentarily (5 years) interesting, but for a good and healthy long term life, i'll send you a post card from elsewhere. raising kids here may be useful to them to learn the language and may offer a opening to a future job for child but regimentation and indoctrination, as previously mentioned, are not so pleasant, unless you favor, follow, follow, follow!

also, to mention health care in mainland, hahaha. unless  the situation in perfectly obvious, like a broken leg. then the docs can help you. but any internal problems leave them baffled and offering only their personal nostrums for relief as their income in near the bottom. so find health care in big cities, beijing, where you will pay western prices, or more. in hk, public health care very cheap, IF you are hk resident, which you and i will (probably) never be. pay western prices for care in hk.

nuff said. enjoy the day, smell the roses. wait for cooler weather.

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Pashley

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Re: Fiscal preparedness
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2010, 04:03:33 PM »
A few numbers to provoke thought.

If you can find something to export, given contacts here & there, you should be able to make decent money. A container of anything has to be worth at least $20,000 and you should get at least 5% even if you are only being a middle man, so $1000 a container. That's a minimum; find a good deal, handle expensive goods, or use your own money rather than just being in the middle and you might get significantly more.

So if you can find a few clients who each take several containers a year, you should be set. It does not look all that hard. I've been thinking about that for years now, though, and have never managed to put a deal together. It depends on (at least) contacts, luck & personality. It has not worked for me yet, but might for others.

If you can accumulate a few million RMB, you should be set for life in China. A million gets you a decent house in some places and is a good down payment almost anywhere. Invest another million. Even at 6% you get 60,000 a year or 5,000 a month, enough to live in fair comfort.

Two million RMB is under $300K US. Could you accumulate elsewhere & retire here?

You can have fun & learn things playing with investment formulae. One collection is here:
http://oakroadsystems.com/math/loan.htm#Formulas

Take their formula, N = log(1+iF/P) / log(1+i) where i is interest rate, P is the payment and F the Future value you need to accumulate.

Their example (http://oakroadsystems.com/math/loan.htm#Sample10) shows that investing 2000 a year at 8%, you accumulate 40,000 in 13 years. Much less than the 40,000/2,000 = 20 years one might naively expect. Even at 8%, compound interest is wonderful.

If you are young enough, try to find a way to get that compounding working in your favour. Take a job with a good pension plan. Put money aside, perhaps in a good mutual fund. Or buy a house to reduce your rent expense and hope the property appreciates. If you start at under 30 and have some discipline, accumulating a decent amount by retirement age should be reasonably straightforward.

This did not work for me. Teaching ESL abroad is not good for accumulating money. Kids are expensive. Divorces are even more expensive and much less interesting. However, it did work quite well for some of my friends & might for you.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 04:34:31 PM by Pashley »
Who put a stop payment on my reality check?

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Borkya

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Re: Fiscal preparedness
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2010, 08:33:51 PM »
Their example (http://oakroadsystems.com/math/loan.htm#Sample10) shows that investing 2000 a year at 8%, you accumulate 40,000 in 13 years. Much less than the 40,000/2,000 = 20 years one might naively expect. Even at 8%, compound interest is wonderful.

Well sure 8% would be grand, but where does one fine 8% interests these days?! even CD's, the usual work horse or reliable interest rates, are at a measly 1% right now. The only thing that can remotely offer that kind of return is high risk investments like stocks and we all know how that has worked out for people recently. (In fact the average return for the past decade based on the US stock market was NEGATIVE 1.4% according to Motley Fool the excellent financial website.)

I'm all for compound interest, and am a big fan of it personally, but you need to present realistic numbers to make your argument, and not crazy talk!

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Escaped Lunatic

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Re: Fiscal preparedness
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2010, 09:14:34 PM »
Related to return on investment is one type of life insurance.

If you are young, single, and your relatives back in the home country are self-supporting, you probably don't need life insurance.  If you are working your way up in the age department and have parasitic attachments dependents, then you need to seriously look into life insurance.

There are two primary types (and assorted mutant subtypes).  These are:

Term Life:  Pay a premium.  If you fail to die, you get nothing.  If you die, your corpse just won the lottery.

Whole Life:  Pay a MUCH bigger premium.  It develops a growing cash value over time.  Terms for exactly when you can cash it out and return vary.


I am currently being pursued by a couple of Chinese insurance agents.  Both of them want to sell me Whole Life policies.  I have two issues with this.  First, the return on whole life policies isn't very large.  They can be used as a savings plan, but it's usually on the order of a few percent per year.  This is better than nothing, but you may want to consider alternative investments.  Secondly, Chinese life insurance companies haven't exactly been around for decade after decade.  I don't have a clue about regulations, gov't guarantees, reinsurance, etc.  Established life insurance companies in the West have failed on rare occasion, and the ones in China don't seem to have really been tested over time.  I hope they do very well, but am not supremely confident.


If you are disciplined enough to save and are comfortable making investments, then going with term life and saving the rest of the money will probably work better for you.  If you aren't so good with money, whole life can be a good idea.  Or, split the difference.  Get a small whole life policy, add a term life on top of it, and invest some of the money yourself.
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zero

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Re: Fiscal preparedness
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2010, 08:03:22 AM »
A few numbers to provoke thought.

If you can find something to export, given contacts here & there, you should be able to make decent money. A container of anything has to be worth at least $20,000 and you should get at least 5% even if you are only being a middle man, so $1000 a container. That's a minimum; find a good deal, handle expensive goods, or use your own money rather than just being in the middle and you might get significantly more.

So if you can find a few clients who each take several containers a year, you should be set. It does not look all that hard. I've been thinking about that for years now, though, and have never managed to put a deal together. It depends on (at least) contacts, luck & personality. It has not worked for me yet, but might for others.

If you can accumulate a few million RMB, you should be set for life in China. A million gets you a decent house in some places and is a good down payment almost anywhere. Invest another million. Even at 6% you get 60,000 a year or 5,000 a month, enough to live in fair comfort.

Two million RMB is under $300K US. Could you accumulate elsewhere & retire here?

You can have fun & learn things playing with investment formulae. One collection is here:
http://oakroadsystems.com/math/loan.htm#Formulas

Take their formula, N = log(1+iF/P) / log(1+i) where i is interest rate, P is the payment and F the Future value you need to accumulate.

Their example (http://oakroadsystems.com/math/loan.htm#Sample10) shows that investing 2000 a year at 8%, you accumulate 40,000 in 13 years. Much less than the 40,000/2,000 = 20 years one might naively expect. Even at 8%, compound interest is wonderful.

If you are young enough, try to find a way to get that compounding working in your favour. Take a job with a good pension plan. Put money aside, perhaps in a good mutual fund. Or buy a house to reduce your rent expense and hope the property appreciates. If you start at under 30 and have some discipline, accumulating a decent amount by retirement age should be reasonably straightforward.

This did not work for me. Teaching ESL abroad is not good for accumulating money. Kids are expensive. Divorces are even more expensive and much less interesting. However, it did work quite well for some of my friends & might for you.

I like this post. I do agree that your investment-return estimates are too high. But your general idea is an option that perhaps belongs on my list of "how to stay in China long-term" options. Save up some money in a western country first. I like the figure of $300,000 that you mentioned. I personally would not buy a house in China. I would use the savings as a cushion (for medical expenses or whatever). And I would get the lowest-hours university teaching job I could find, and live in their housing. Not much different from a typical TEFLer, but I'd have a financial future. I would live mainly on the income from the job and watch my savings grow. I would probably wander around drunk much of the time.

Re: Fiscal preparedness
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2010, 08:06:08 PM »
quoth zero:
Quote
I personally would not buy a house in China. I would use the savings as a cushion (for medical expenses or whatever). And I would get the lowest-hours university teaching job I could find, and live in their housing. Not much different from a typical TEFLer, but I'd have a financial future. I would live mainly on the income from the job and watch my savings grow. I would probably wander around drunk much of the time.

That's pretty close to what I do, except:
1)  Being married, I have bought an apartment for my family. It's really too small for us, and it's pretty distant from where I work and I really don't like it, but it's ours, paid for, and we hope to make a little money selling it. Not a lot, but some.(If we sold it today we'd realise a profit of 3 or 4 wan)
2) I don't have that much money saved back in the world, but some. Enough that if/when we move to Canada, we won't be hurting. Not enough to retire on (yet). Enough that if/when we stay in China until i die, we won't be hurting.
3)  While I am working, my wife is saving a significant portion of my money. If we don't touch it until we go to Canada or I die, mission accomplished.
4)  But yeah, I try to work as little as I can and wander around pretty drunk most of the time. I don't wear my pyjamas on the street, but otherwise I've adapted to the local culture. I think you can call that a successful work-life balance.