Making big bucks

I don't quite know how to phrase this question. I sometimes look at ShanghaiExpat.com's forums. They have a wide mix of people, including a high proportion of people in non-teaching fields, some of them on expat packages.

I was looking at this thread:

http://www.shanghaiexpat.com/phpbbforum/whats-the-salary-you-are-getting-to-work-here-t115050.html

People on there seem to make so much money. Some scoffed at those who make less than 30k/month and wonder how they live in Shanghai. And they really scoffed at anyone who would deign to teach English. The suggestion was that even 50k is not high if you're going to move yourself all the way to Shanghai.

To me, making 30k/month would be excellent money. And 50k would be, um, wow. I've never made that much in the U.S. If I made that much in China, I'd be saving a lot of money.

What do you guys think? I am not surprised that Shanghai has lots of high-earners on expat packages. But some are not in that category.

What do you think? Are the English teachers in China utter fools for -- gasp -- working in the sub-20k/month range? Are the people posting high numbers just a bunch of rich-asses looking down on others? How much do you need to make in China in order not to be impoverished? How about in Shanghai?

And finally, where do you find one of those high-paying jobs?

I think most of the people working for those sorts of salaries on the expat packages are working for foreign companies and have been sent to China not necessarily by choice. There's a category of people who basically move from country to country whereever their company sends them. They get high salaries because living in another country is considered a "hardship." They also get perks like paid tuition at international schools for their kids, housing allowances which allow them to live in ritzy compounds, insurance for Western standard hospitals, paid drivers and ayis, relocation allowances, all sorts of stuff.

Eventhe folks not technically on expat packages have jobs that are not really for your average foreigner in China. If you have really nice (corporate) qualifications you should be able to land a good "local hire" job at a foreign company and maybe make somewhere around 20-30k-ish. I had a friend working for Siemens in Shanghai and she was making about 20k, and if she had stuck with it for a few years she probably could have worked her way up to a bit higher salary. She went back to the States and then was hired from the States for a job in Guangzhou and is making more than she was at Siemens because she is now a "foreign hire." A big part of how much you make is based on whether or not you were in China to begin with when you were hired, which is kind of unfair I think, but that's how it goes.

To be honest I don't think most people teaching English in China are capable of making 30k a month, so foolish or not, there's not much that can be done about it. The only way you can make that teaching is if you're certified to teach international school, and if we were all certified to teach international school I'm sure most of us would be doing that. Not everyone can get a corporate job either, most people don't have the background to even get an interview, much less a job ... not to mention the desire to work in the corporate world in the first place! However, the idea that you can't live on less than that in Shanghai is ridiculous. I live just fine in Beijing on half of that, and that's with 2 kids to support. I suppose if I was hitting fancy clubs every night or visiting a lot of massage parlours (or their equivalent for us ladies, hehe) then maybe my salary wouldn't be enough? But my family is hardly roughing it so I think those people are just full of it.

most people in the rich countries live on less than that

meh

if they scoff at my lifestyle in china on 10krmb a month they would probably be appalled at my lifestyle in england on 8krmb a month and they would have been amazed at my life in my early 20s on about 3000rmb a month in england

i still enjoyed most of it...

btw i still manage to save between 3 and 5k a month, and that is not even thinking about money. what the hell do people spend all this money on? i have a nice phone and nice bike and go to bars and restaraunts and have a full fridge most of the time....

At the above-referenced thread, one poster in particular seems to be amazed at how lowly people's salaries are. Talking about a poll of salaries on the thread, he/she says:

based on the above poll count of 36 - over half said under 30k/month!!
that doesn't even cover my rent.
As expat, i'd be truly interested to see how they live.

And also later:

so; what i consider "norm" or "average" quality, is the life i would ideally live in the USA - the ease of language, comradery and all that it has to offer.
to get close - i'd have to live in a compound that the staff are all english speakers... my neighbors would all be American. i'm not going to find that here, but i can get close... and the closer i want to get, unfortunately, the most expensive it gets.

so for all the "teachers," while they might like the thrill of shanghai or living abroad at the same pay grade (or less) then they made in the USA - I truly wonder if there are many benefits of living in shanghai that outweigh the difficulties?

If i had an option to choose to live in any city in the world making the exact same wage(with cost of living adjusted) - shanghai would likely be towards the very bottom of the list while places like new york, London, Paris would be at the top.

So maybe that pretty much sums up the attitude. How someone with that kind of spelling and grammar lands a job that makes a 30k+/month apartment possible is a mystery to me, but whatever works, I guess.

I'd take it all with a grain of salt. It could be some crank trying to stir the pot.

The good bit is the cost of living difference. Most of us know this stuff already, and all numbers involved are guesses, but ...

Take a fairly good job in the West -- say 72K a year or $6000 a month -- versus a mid-range university job here at 6000 rmb a month. Roughly seven times the base pay in the West. But then, being paid $6000/month in the West means about 4000 in take-home pay after deductions. A decent apartment might be a thousand, so you've got 3000 left. Here, there's about 5800 in take-home pay and the employer typically pays for the apartment. Prices on almost everything are lower too.

Net result: in terms of spending power, I am significantly better off at 6000 rmb/month here than I would be in Canada at $6000.

At the risk of being overly blunt, Shanghai is full of rich ex-pat douchebags working for foreign companies who pay them in British pounds. They live totally insulated lives and have no contact with Chinese society whatsoever. They have Western apartments (which they Western prices for) with ovens, bathtubs and satellite TV and they spend most of their time hanging with other ex-pats on a the same "harship post" at the local British pub.

 People like this are not in China because they like it. They are there because they have to be. They will never the joy of 5 mao yangrouchuan. Too bad for them.

Net result: in terms of spending power, I am significantly better off at 6000 rmb/month here than I would be in Canada at $6000.

This is exactly true. To be honest, I don't spend a penny of my salary. We live on the airfare reimbursement and tutoring money so I save every penny and spend it on the holidays traveling about.

In the year before we came to China I worked 2 full time jobs (80 hours a week) and my husband worked about 30. We scrimped and saved and managed to save about $8000.

This past year in China we ate out every meal, traveled for months, bought fun things, and STILL managed to save $10,000 without even trying.

So yeah, I'm quite happy on my "meager" teaching salary of 5000 yuan. See why going home will be so difficult?!

What good is making 35k per month if your apartment costs over 30k per month?

What good is living in China if you wall yourself off from all the local culture?

These people might as well live in New York or London and telecommute to Shanghai.


Trust me, it's FAR better to live in a nice little Chinese village and telecommute to the USA.

I'm in Shanghai. TLD & Decurso pretty much sum it up. E.g. A friends GF works in real estate, specialising in renting to ex-pats.  One of their clients housing allowance alone is 60,000 RMB per month!

Yeah yeah - we are bound to debunk the notion of earning such high salaries - and such expats have to then fork out far more in overheads and expenditure (accommodation, ect). But the truth is, they don't have to. They could easily live in a small, grotty flat and make massive savings. Now I know for me, that is a tempting thing.

Imagine, you can live in Asia, work for a relatively secure/foreign organisation and in some cases earn Pounds/Dollars (not RMB) which is far higher than the average cost of a beer. That is a good deal. Yes, we may be noble and may nuture students into betterment. But, as zero has pointed out, they can lead a pretty good life if they make the right savings!

I have thought about moving into this line of work but the big difference I find between these high powered jobs and our teaching positions, is that they require almost perfect written and oral Mandarin. Naturally, that torpedoes my chances in an instant!

Besides, as lucrative and tempting as that kind of work is, there is still something very attractive in mucking around with students, various student ceremonies, judging contests, watching the flag raising tasks and those other closer-to-China kind of activities!

Hail the Teacher!

I have thought about moving into this line of work but the big difference I find between these high powered jobs and our teaching positions, is that they require almost perfect written and oral Mandarin. Naturally, that torpedoes my chances in an instant!

Not necessarily Dex. A lot of these career expats don't really speak the local language of the place where they're posted at all. Since they go from posting to posting it would be impossible for them to rely on language skills. I know someone here in Beijing (a trailing spouse, that is, a wife of a dude who is a career expat) who is headed to Dubai for the next posting. Another trailing spouse aquiantance lived in Vietnam, Qatar, Japan, and now is in France due to her husband's work. They usually stay in one place for about 2-3 years and then move on, so there's some justification for the high salaries, since moving around so much is not easy, especially for people with families. Definitely there are some jobs that require a high level of Chinese (usually "local hire" type jobs like I mentioned my friend at Siemens had, or the old job I had at a dotcom startup in Beijing), but many of the really well paid jobs don't.

They also don't usually pay for their housing out of their salary, they're given an allowance by their company. Like MK mentioned a friend of a friend getting a 60K a month housing allowance -- they aren't just going to give you that money in cash if you choose to rent a 600RMB a month apartment instead. I mean, living like a local is fine and all but if some company was going to give me 60K a month to live in a palace I'd take the palace personally and get my Chinese culture fix elsewhere.

What do you think? Are the English teachers in China utter fools for -- gasp -- working in the sub-20k/month range? Are the people posting high numbers just a bunch of rich-asses looking down on others? How much do you need to make in China in order not to be impoverished? How about in Shanghai?

And finally, where do you find one of those high-paying jobs?

Well, that depends.  Are we fools only because of our salaries?  In that case, teachers everywhere are fools.  So are most journalists, paramedics, designers, or anyone else who would never be able to afford to live in a palatial penthouse in one of the world's most expensive cities. 

But, I imagine that isn't what they mean.  I imagine they mean that anyone would be crazy to come to CHINA, specifically, making such a low salary - which implies that China is not a desirable place to live.  I don't get that attitude at all.

How do you get one of those jobs in a western company where you HAVE TO LIVE in China?

Friend of mine, Chinese, works as a regional manager for a foreign company, "draws" a total of about 40k a month.  So there you go, all those high flying expats on the packages and with the status, they're as rich as a 30-year-old girl.

Think of it this way, the typical expat manager is not only training his replacement, but he's spending time away from where his real game is played, and when he finally does get back to the home country, all that bullshit about foreign experience looking good on the CV is going to add up to a bunch of job interviews with employers who want to know why you really left the country and did you keep up with all the real development, you know, the developments that happened here in a real country?

The China experience isn't special on a CV.  You went to a backwards country that everyone wants to screw, so what?  And you pocketed lots of cash while you were there--great, good luck to you.  But what transferable management skill comes out of the country with you?  How to wrangle buttheads and sip baijiu without wincing?  How to make accommodations and be confounded by ignorance?  This isn't the playground of excellence and innovation that was described on the tourist brochure.

So all these expat poseurs, they don't even live their own jargon well: "value-added"?  What was the value added of coming here?  You have to be smarter than the money you're paid and get something better out of your time here.