What Do Non-Natives Do Now? Student Visa Or Work Visa?

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Ivyman

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What Do Non-Natives Do Now? Student Visa Or Work Visa?
« on: December 10, 2023, 12:50:43 AM »
Hello Everyone,

Some of my very capable friends have college degrees, and are good teachers.

But, because they have citizenship and passports from outside the 7 native countries, they cannot get jobs. This includes even native speakers like Pakistan, India, etc.

1. Traditionally, many of them just came on a tourist or student visa, and worked from there. We can see that is just not possible anymore.

2. What do you suggest?

a. Get a CELTA, and take any job that can arrange a work visa?
b. Come over on a student visa, then work on the side?
c. Come over on a student visa, say to Beijing Language and Culture University, and prove they can get degrees in Chinese or English studies, and translate that to a job?

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Escaped Lunatic

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Re: What Do Non-Natives Do Now? Student Visa Or Work Visa?
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2023, 06:14:47 PM »
China is relaxing visa requirements for tourism and business visas, but is getting MUCH more strict regarding illegal employment.

Working on the side as a student or tourist is a fast way to pay a big fine, spend some quality time learning about life inside of jail, and then get deported as banned from future entry (possibly permanently).

Work visas are tied to residence permits and employment contracts.  That same crackdown on illegal work on a student visa also applies to work outside the scope of the employment contract.  A person qualified to be an interpreter or translator with an employment contract to match, but caught teaching (or doing any other paid work not matching the employment contract) will be in deep legal trouble.  The employer may face fines and possibly jail, but the employee is the one who gets fined, jailed, deported, and banned from entering China.

Yes, some people are still breaking the law by teaching illegally.  Some companies are breaking the law by hiring teachers on contracts that say nothing about teaching.  Enforcement is weeding them out faster than ever before.  Tell your friends to cut off communication with anyone even suggesting that working illegally is an option.

Your friends need to QUALIFY AS FOREIGN ENGLISH TEACHERS PER CHINESE REGULATIONS in some other way.  Possibly having a CELTA and/or an English or education degree from an appropriate institution (possibly a Masters or PhD might be needed for those not from the 7 primary countries).  Before signing up for CELTA or a degree program, they need to check the current regulations and also chat with some potential employers so they don't end up spending a lot of money, time, and effort only to end up still not quite being qualified.

If they need a job to save up some money to get qualified, tell them to check the requirements to be English teachers in other countries.  Some are not as strict as China.
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Ivyman

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Re: What Do Non-Natives Do Now? Student Visa Or Work Visa?
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2023, 07:28:19 PM »
Escaped Lunatic,

Thank you very much for the answer.

1. No matter what, I think the CELTA is good for anyone.

Ten years ago, my best friend (a doctor) would think it would be a "wasted cost" to spend the $3000 USD. But, as it turns out, it has opened so many doors.

Even with an Ivy League degree, no job in Saudi Arabia wanted me until I had the CELTA. In China, it seems any native speaker can get a job with a bachelor's degree and CELTA.

So, my friend was very incorrect in her analysis.

The fact that the CELTA may never be phased out also shows it might have a lifetime of value. 30 years of eligibility to work = $100 USD a year cost, made up for in wage increases.

2. I will see what can be done. Maybe it will be impossible for someone who is not from a Native 7 country to get legitimate employment with a legitimate work visa.

How then, is China managing?

I mean, the demand is as high as ever. Several hundred million people still want English teachers than before.

If people cannot work on tourist visas, student visas, be from non-Native countries, and many legitimate teachers are leaving China for personal reasons, how can the English teaching industry go on?

3. At least in my experience, I just see that the core institutions (public schools, quasi-public Guojibus, real international schools) live on as they always have. Training centers rise and fall as quickly as we saw with those "no more New Oriental and Wall Street English" laws, and private tutoring continues as covertly as any country.

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Escaped Lunatic

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Re: What Do Non-Natives Do Now? Student Visa Or Work Visa?
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2023, 08:43:46 PM »
Training centers usually had children as their students.  Teaching core subjects (including English) outside of schools no longer being an option, you'll have to wait and see if one or more of the surviving companies manages to reorganize primarily around teaching adults.

This does mean fewer English teaching jobs, but the tighter enforcement of visa and work permit rules means that roving backpackers who work for super low rates are no longer a significant issue (and if you find a place that does illegally employ foreigners, there are whistleblower rewards).

So, fewer jobs - not so good.
A lot less competion - very good for those who do possess the correct qualifications.

Tell your friends that if a job involved off-site instruction (like classes for employees at a factory), they need to make certain that their work permit and labor countract clearly lay this out.  Similarly for a training company with classrooms in 2 locations - if your contract and work permit specify ONE location to work, going somewhere else can lead to serious issues.  Don't let an employer convince you that "it will all be ok."  It will be ok right up to the moment it's not ok, and that's when fines and worse start to happen to the happless employee.  It really comes down to making sure the company goes to the effort to clearly lay out exactly what the job is and how it is performed both in the labor contract and the work permit papers.  Don't let a lazy HR person get you deported.
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kitano

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Re: What Do Non-Natives Do Now? Student Visa Or Work Visa?
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2024, 01:59:57 AM »
Escaped Lunatic,
How then, is China managing?

I mean, the demand is as high as ever. Several hundred million people still want English teachers than before.

If people cannot work on tourist visas, student visas, be from non-Native countries, and many legitimate teachers are leaving China for personal reasons, how can the English teaching industry go on?


I get the impression that you are relatively new to teaching out in Asia, I know that you have been on here for quite a few years, but I first did ESL teaching back in 2005 and I believe some of the people on here were in China in the 90s when you could run a city on $500 lol
I hope I'm not being patronising, but the ESL industry in the 00s and early 10s was the most ridiculous thing, it was like this goldrush where all of the Chinese and Korean investment companies just saw a cash cow and ploughed money in, and the new middle class who were generally poorly educated but suddenly had money would just buy any product that said their kid could speak English.
There was a lot of coverage of the Chinese economic boom in the west and it really was a gold rush, being white you could be quids in and being a native speaker you didn't even need to interview you just needed to have a clean shirt.
Korea and China now are desirable destinations so thank god, I'm not 'that guy' but it does keep the riff raff out, Thailand is still like that, some really vile criminals. but they are used to it due to their history they know how to control the westerners who arrive, the Sino countries are not used to foreigners wanting to live here so they had a very steep learning curve. I'm happy to admit I was and maybe still am a bit of a bum and I take advantage of having a grasp of Chinese mentality and how they think about us. I love the Chinese but not everyone does
Sorry, I don't know if this is going anywhere

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Ivyman

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Re: What Do Non-Natives Do Now? Student Visa Or Work Visa?
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2024, 07:33:36 PM »
I have been here for about eight years.

1. While teaching in China certainly does not have the personnel protections and quality of schools as the West, I see some things to my advantage:

- A wife in Beijing, who knows the public healthcare and education system
- A wife who helps my paycheck go farther than I could by myself
- She, and others who can help translate Chinese
- A decent lawyer to advocate in a Chinese court.

2. As I have always posted, I feel two things about myself:

- I am only a mediocre English teacher, at most generous. Even with CELTA, teacher training, tips, etc. my skills are only mamahuhu. I will never stop trying to get better, but I must face reality.

- Honestly, I think the person who faces their flaws and limitations can grow stronger. That is a real difference between a "learner" and a "loser." They can be in the exact same situation, but the one who still tries to get better and make good is better than the one who gives up, gets cynical, or stays complacent.

- My real strengths are in things I can barely do in China: teach any type of history, social studies, etc. Counsel students into their choice universities or careers.

There are jobs, but there are few of them. I need more education, certification, etc. As said above, I am trying.

3. As far as China versus other countries, those are quite big topics:

- China is great because of its size. A legitimate visa allows someone to move around a country the size of the US, with 5x the people of the US, and at least 10x the number of ESL jobs. Vietnam, Thailand, Korea, Japan all have their selling points, but they are nothing compared to China.

- Yes, as China is still a work in progress, there are ways to simply take what we knew at our top schools. Even implementing 10-25% would be a night and day difference. In my network, I have people from top prep schools like Exeter, Andover, Eton, or fellow Ivy League blokes from Harvard, Oxford, Cambridge, etc. who gladly donate their time, if the Chinese schools would do what they are advised.

All the 100 students I have advised have gotten into their top choice schools. I am happy to help, even free of charge, because I want others to succeed and be happy.

4. As far as long term, I simply want to be successful.

I enjoy that even today, if you have a professional attitude, and work as hard as you would as an English teacher in the US or UK, you could make about the same spending power. Sometimes, it is more.

5. But, of course, I want to get more money, more opportunities, etc. That is why I brainstorm and talk about it.