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Author Topic: Why I love Chinese women...  (Read 9470 times)

Day Dreamer

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Re: Why I love Chinese women...
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2013, 02:05:53 AM »
I've seen them spitting everywhere, but haven't yet seen the women peeing everywhere. ahahahahah

You have not been to Henan.

Come to Henan.

I have too with pictures to prove it bibibibibi

As for what TLD said, since my Chinese sucks huge, I'm limited to the number of locals I deal with. But I've seen lots of behaviour that the OP talks about. If it doesn't directly effect me, I just shake my head and walk away (after I get a picture)

What used to shock me, now just amuses me
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The Local Dialect

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Re: Why I love Chinese women...
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2013, 02:08:38 AM »
I'm married to one of those disparaging remarks deleted As are a couple of members here.

Hmmmm....

Originally I repeated the remarks in my response. I changed my mind and edited my own post as well since those words did not need to be quoted all over the place. In any case, it is dealt with, so carry on the discussion of the topic and try to drop the rest. :)

Calach Pfeffer

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Re: Why I love Chinese women...
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2013, 02:18:55 AM »
It's okay. I just thought it was big o' me afafafafaf... to point out the... ambiguity...

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kitano

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Re: Why I love Chinese women...
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2013, 02:48:50 AM »
It's very easy to end up hating stuff in China which isn't even specific to China, like people being petty

The first story in GZwriters post was about a teenager being a petty little prat, teenagers never cease to amaze with just how far they will go to get revenge or whatever with things like that

When I went to live with my wife in Holland after my first 18 months in China it was quite an eye opener because I saw a lot of the Dutch 20 year olds being loud and arrogant in pretty much exactly the same way that had had me going 'God I hate these young Chinese men' they even used to 'Ni Hao' the Chinese students (admittedly they only did it to good looking girls so not as pathetic as the Chinese 'Hello'ing everyone)

I think for most of us we will be dealing with well off and spoiled young people a lot of the time and it's not really a surprise that a large proportion of them turn out to be selfish and arrogant etc

Guangzhou Writer

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Re: Why I love Chinese women...
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2013, 02:59:31 AM »
On its face, generalizations are limited in their value and meaning. Of course I didn't say all and didn't mean all. In fact, I specifically mentioned exceptions, albeit rare ones, IME.

The reason I used these two examples is the pettiness involved in trying to sabotage someone else's good time just to save face. It is unbelievably small. The suggestions given on how to specifically handle those situations are exactly what I described, or I wrote it poorly and what you said is what I meant.

Yes, I could be wrong about the second guy's motives. Why did he wait four days to text me? Could be flaky, could be trying to interfere and get plans changed he had no intention of going along with. Based on one pattern described with KTV and many other data points over the years, I think it was the second motive.

My lack of Chinese is a massive limiting factor in both those I can meet and the interactions I have with English speaking Chinese, and that's completely on me, not them. However, it doesn't change my past subjective experiences, although re-interpretation of past events is possible and useful, which is why I started this thread.

Just read Kitano's comment and that's very relevant. I had almost no interaction with teenagers for years before coming to China.

I appreciate everyone's comments. It puts things in perspective.

opiate

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Re: Why I love Chinese women...
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2013, 03:02:09 AM »
The flakiness of many folks here does grate on my nerves sometimes. I think much of it is tied into that horseshit idea of 'face'. Many folks make or express desire to make plans but it often has zero meaning. Of course it happens in our home countries too but perhaps we are better at recognizing it when it happens there. It's easier for us to pick up on body language and tone of voice and other cues back home, here...not so much. When a girl or guy here tells me I am handsome....it does not have the same meaning as when a westerner does. It apparently is not an invitation for sex or a gay dude flirting.   bibibibibi When invited to dinner or anything else...it's best to assume there is no actual plan unless they contact you again about it. If you call them and ask...it's bad form. Guys and girls alike do this. Yes, it's sometimes frustrating but expectations must be adjusted.

People make empty invitations and empty compliments all the time. I can't tell you how many times I've thought I had dinner plans only to find out later that the person is out of town/visiting family/working/out with colleagues/not feeling well/blahblahblah. Maybe it's me though.

The more I think about the first story, the more I feel your anger with Jerry was somewhat misplaced. The girls were wrong and so were you. Sure, Jerry was being a prick, but if the girls truly wanted to go to your party they would have. Also, because you said you would attend his party if you had time it gave Jerry more leverage in pressuring the girls not to attend the original party. You made it easy for him and gave him reasons to act like a prick. It all goes back to face. You made Jerry feel like he lost face by not inviting him when you originally invited the girls and he tried to get it back by getting you to attend his party hoping your interest in the girls would do the trick.

Was the whole thing petty? To us yes. Most of us do not give much of a shit about 'face' and/or do not even understand it. The whole concept makes me want to punch a kitten right in the face. I firmly believe it's one of the things that holds the Chinese people back.

Guangzhou Writer

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Re: Why I love Chinese women...
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2013, 03:10:21 AM »
When a girl or guy here tells me I am handsome....it does not have the same meaning as when a westerner does. It apparently is not an invitation for sex or a gay dude flirting.
It took me years to recalibrate my reaction to hearing that stuff. I don't think anyone had said that to me since I was a teenager and my grandma had said it. Now I think it's innocent and charming and not some kind of invitation. I like how they are less sexualized here. 

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Was the whole thing petty? To us yes. Most of us do not give much of a shit about 'face' and/or do not even understand it. The whole concept makes me want to punch a kitten right in the face. I firmly believe it's one of the things that holds the Chinese people back.
Someone once said, "You can have face, or you can be happy. You can't have both."

English Gent

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Re: Why I love Chinese women...
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2013, 03:18:02 AM »
some of my extended chinese family seem nice, but my wife says they have ulterior motives, and knowing this, im better able to defend against it. if anyone, male or female, schedules something deliberately to derail your planned event, im glad this thread had made me wiser, as if it happened to me, my naivety may of otherwise caused me to 'fall for it'. as for racial stereotyping, thicker skin people!

Prionailurus Bengalensis

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Re: Why I love Chinese women...
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2013, 04:38:22 AM »
I know plenty of Chinese men who are kind, generous, funny, and creative -- and many of them are in that age range.

Perhaps part of the problem is your preconceived notions about, & hostility towards, this group of people?

The Local Dialect

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Re: Why I love Chinese women...
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2013, 04:40:31 AM »
The flakiness of many folks here does grate on my nerves sometimes. I think much of it is tied into that horseshit idea of 'face'. Many folks make or express desire to make plans but it often has zero meaning. Of course it happens in our home countries too but perhaps we are better at recognizing it when it happens there. It's easier for us to pick up on body language and tone of voice and other cues back home, here...not so much. When a girl or guy here tells me I am handsome....it does not have the same meaning as when a westerner does. It apparently is not an invitation for sex or a gay dude flirting.   bibibibibi When invited to dinner or anything else...it's best to assume there is no actual plan unless they contact you again about it. If you call them and ask...it's bad form. Guys and girls alike do this. Yes, it's sometimes frustrating but expectations must be adjusted.

People make empty invitations and empty compliments all the time. I can't tell you how many times I've thought I had dinner plans only to find out later that the person is out of town/visiting family/working/out with colleagues/not feeling well/blahblahblah. Maybe it's me though.


Absolutely isn't just you. This is a cultural thing and it has nothing to do with being male or female, the women do it as well. My (again, Chinese) husband bitches about this all the time. I don't know how many times he's re-told this story to illustrate a point he is making about Chinese society, but I'll re-tell it here again because it is an excellent example of the above.

My husband comes from a town (used to be a village, they got upgraded, woot) outside of Kunming. When we go down to visit his family we have to take a bus to the county seat and then another bus to the village. A couple of years ago we were on our way back to Kunming from the village and were on a small bus just arriving in the county seat when my husband discovers that his high school math teacher was on the same bus! Imagine the coincidence! So they do the Chinese thing and shoot the shit for a bit, and the math teacher tries to convince us to get off the bus, right then and there, and go to his house.

Now this is where you have to understand the culture because a foreigner might have gone along with it that but in reality, this guy had no intention of actually having us get off the bus in this county town on our way back to Kunming, with all of our stuff, 2 kids, etc. and go to his house for dinner. And my husband knew that. So he did the polite refusal thing. "Oh no no no, we're busy." And the guy insisted "oh come on, come have dinner." Back and forth until he finally gave up.

If you didn't understand Chinese culture and the fact that this whole interaction was basically scripted, you might be thinking, gosh the guy really wants us to have dinner with him, maybe we better go. But the truth of the matter is, if we had gotten off the bus and gone to his house, guy would have had no idea what to do. We would have broken the script entirely.

So when we finally did get off the bus (to get on our next bus, back to Kunming) my husband was visibly irritated. I asked him what was wrong. He said, "I hate how fake people are here. Teacher knew we wouldn't come to dinner, so why did he even have to put on the pretense of inviting us?" And to this day, if you want to get him, my husband, on a rant about Chinese society, just bring up this topic and he'll go off.

But these are very very well ingrained cultural norms. It isn't that Chinese men are lying assholes, it is that the culture allows for a certain degree of mutually agreed upon pretense, and that can make it hard for outsiders, particularly outsiders from a country like the USA, where people tend to be straight shooters (about certain things), to navigate.

GZ your original mistake with Jerry, and I agree Jerry was being petty (but again, teenager), was somehow giving the impression to the rest of the class that you were playing favorities. The fact that the chosen kids were female students probably pushed some buttons (and that's not your fault, but this culture is touchy about foreign man/Chinese female interactions, particularly when the women in question are young students). It sounds like there was, again, a load of miscommunication all around. I don't socialize with my students precisely because I want to avoid situations like that but I understand this was a school sanctioned party and it's not like you were having them over to your house.

I think the second guy was following the script. You were supposed to say "sorry, no I can't change it to Sunday, there's no way." The guy was then supposed to make some sort of suggestion about possibly doing something else, you were supposed to refuse, end result is eventually that nothing changes. No where along the line were you actually supposed to change your plans, but the guy had to look like he was making an effort. I honestly cannot see what he would stand to gain from sabotaging your hiking trip and I think you took the whole thing a bit too personally. He was trying to blow you off, the Chinese way.  

Day Dreamer

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Re: Why I love Chinese women...
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2013, 04:53:53 AM »
Nice story TLD, can't wait to meet your husband.   uuuuuuuuuu

Reminds me of Homer Simpson when he askes, "How are you?"

When the recipient responds with, "I'm ..."

He retorts, "I didn't want your life story!" and then some comment on how flaky or phony people are
For you to insult me, first I must value your opinion

Just Like Mr Benn

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Re: Why I love Chinese women...
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2013, 05:26:28 AM »
I know plenty of Chinese men who are kind, generous, funny, and creative -- and many of them are in that age range.

Perhaps part of the problem is your preconceived notions about, & hostility towards, this group of people?

I don't doubt that there are Chinese males like that, but I never meet them. The males that I have any level of contact with are some or all of the following

a) young. I'm not sure I like under-30 males of any nationality that aren't European, or perhaps Canadian.

b) want something from me. Not that I object to this necessarily. It would just be nice if they had something / anything I wanted from them

c) obsessed by basketball. I like sports. There aren't many sports that I'm not interested in, but basketball is one of them. In fact liking basketball just highlights their lack of interest in the really important things in life, like Football (both kinds).

d) Politically ignorant. It really doesn't matter whether they're uber-nationalists or pro-reformers. The one thing that they all have in common is that they've copied their opinions, usually poorly from somewhere or someone else.

e) Have a lousy attitude towards women.


Chinese men I don't meet

a) men my age, because they're busy with careers and family. Fair enough. I bet I'd like lots of Chinese men my age. Probably not most, but some.

b) Intelligent. I work at a bottom level Uni. I'd dare to say that most of the male students at my Uni are not the cream of the crop intellectually.

c) ones that could be useful to me. If I had the chance to be friends with high ranking party officials, Police, men who work in publishing or senior managers in universities, I would jump at the chance. I would gladly help them out, provide English classes for their kids, give them face and learn the intricacies of Chinese social behaviour. Import / export clerks; not so much.

d) Chinese men with the same interests as me. Where I live, I can't do many of the things I'd like to do socially and culturally, so I stand no chance of meeting anyone that I have these things in common with.

So, of course I appreciate that there are many Chinese men whose company I would enjoy, but in my first 4 years in the country, the first few hundred or thousand Chinese men I've had a conversation with, there's not one I'd have even the slightest interest in being friends with. (Maybe one. I talked to a Chinese student on a bus once for five minutes, and he seemed quite cool. far too cool to be interested in befriending a laowai anyway). To an extent that may be bad luck.

I wouldn't say I've absolutely given up, but taking an interest in Chinese males is kind of like scratching off the things on fapiaos. One day you may get a pleasant surprise, but it would be foolish to have any expectations.

Guangzhou Writer

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Re: Why I love Chinese women...
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2013, 05:35:58 AM »
I know plenty of Chinese men who are kind, generous, funny, and creative -- and many of them are in that age range.
Chinese males who grew up in the mainland PRC? Generous, funny, and creative? Sounds like the perfect man :)

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Perhaps part of the problem is your preconceived notions about, & hostility towards, this group of people?

One of the foundational reasons why I came to China was that I know a PRC mainland man living in the USA whom I respect deeply. I spent some time around him and his circle before coming here, and although I didn't have much of any expectation about what I would find, I was definitely prejudiced in a positive way.

For the first two years I was here, I tried very hard to make friends with Chinese males around my age, and 98.6% of the time they were also trying, but it seemed to always devolve into a scenario where either I don't know the script or I can't follow the script, sort of like TLD was describing.

Other times, it was just very obvious abuse toward me from the word go, although it's usually happening in some cultural context, like the abusive gan-bei nonsense. "I'm your friend, now consume this toxic substance. And more! I don't care if it makes you sick. We're friends. See?"

Sometimes the abuse is a bit tweaked 'cause I'm laowai, but usually it's just my perception that they are extremely abusive to each other by default, so why shouldn't they be to me? On the other side of the coin, sincere and practically heroic efforts by locals at hospitality are also quite obvious and numerous.

Calach Pfeffer

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Re: Why I love Chinese women...
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2013, 05:44:57 AM »
The other thing, the effect of which I can't detect because I never knew China before, is war, revolution, and cultural revolution. I have wondered sometimes if what we see of Chinese "culture" these days isn't at best some bitter remnant. At worst it's a heavily coopted scene set by fearful and rootless people.

 ababababab


And I personally don't particularly like any of the people I meet.

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Prionailurus Bengalensis

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Re: Why I love Chinese women...
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2013, 05:48:39 AM »
Mr. Benn:

I think many men of a certain age (& many younger!) have a lousy attitude towards women. Including Brits. Like these ones here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/mortarboard/2013/jun/20/why-i-started-a-feminist-society

I am moderately surprised you haven't met football-obsessed fans in China, though. Many of my relatives, at the very least, seem to have English or Spanish & national club allegiances.

It does seem like part of the problem is your environment. & I'm clearly not saying that you should go out of your way to meet Chinese men. Just that there are plenty of awesome ones out there, & the problem might not be one-sided.

gzwriter:

Many of them are good cooks too! :D

Sorry to hear alcohol makes you sick. Pressure to drink is a really unfortunate part of many different cultures, of which Chinese is one of them. Viewing it as a form of abuse doesn't seem particularly useful, though.

As I said above, I don't think the entire problem is on their side.