Criminal Checks and Potential Illegal Foreigner Crackdown

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Criminal Checks and Potential Illegal Foreigner Crackdown
« on: April 30, 2013, 04:11:39 PM »
China daily today; http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2013-04/30/content_16462794.htm

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More efficient measures should be taken to ensure that foreigners with criminal records are banned from working in China, senior officials with the department that oversees attracting and managing international professionals said on Monday.

The officials' remarks came after a British man who is wanted for allegedly raping a child in the United Kingdom and had been a teacher at an international school in Beijing was detained in the Chinese capital on Friday.

Neil Robinson, 46, who is in police custody and being investigated for illegally staying in China, is wanted in connection with the distribution of indecent images of children and the rape of a child, reported Xinhua News Agency.

"Such cases are not common. The overwhelming majority of foreign teachers in China are outstanding," Xia Bing, director of the Department of Cultural and Educational Experts under the State Administration of Foreign Experts Affairs, said at a forum.

Xia said the number of foreign teachers in China has kept growing over the past three decades. Those teachers work in many universities, primary, middle and high schools and training institutions, and they have contributed greatly to the country's fostering of international talent and social development.

More than 180,000 cultural and educational foreign professionals worked in China in 2011, according to Xia.

"But at the same time we should be on guard and use the recent negative case to scare off those who want to come to our country with bad motives," he said.

Foreigners who want to work in China should know that they ought to provide proof that they have no criminal record, he said.

"Police departments in their home countries should offer such proof but we cannot make their governments provide it. We can only see to it that foreigners fill in a form stating their criminal history before they enter China," he said.

To prevent the reoccurrence of such a case, Xia urged schools that employ foreign teachers to remain vigilant.

Even though the authorities take all possible steps, unfortunately cases can occur, Chen Huabei, director of the Information Research Center of International Talent under the administration, said at the same forum.

Chen urged bureaus of foreign experts affairs to strengthen management of foreigners as well as to provide more care and better services for them.

I think there's a good chance that some police with time on their hands may start checking that foreigners have valid permits for being in China. People often say on the forum, be legal or be gone. if anybody is thinking of coming to China and working on a tourist visa, now might be an especially bad time.

I think that if you're going out with students from your Uni or young students from your school, you're going to get caught in the blast from all this as well.

It is disturbing that foreigners can come to China and work with children with no criminal check. My understanding is that Disney do checks, but the other big mills don't.

Despite what Xia Bing says, most (if not all) foreign governments will provide criminal checks. They just won't do it for free. It would be a big hassle for schools to have to pay for this; especially given the risk of teachers going elsewhere instead. I'm not sure teachers saying that they don't have a criminal record is an effective safeguard.

Is this a big problem? Of course the number of sex offenders is very low, and I think these 2 cases (someone elsewhere on the forum has highlighted a second one) are the first I've heard of since being in China. However, were schools or police to discover abuse by foreigners, they'd probably hush it up anyway. There's no advantage to the Police or government highlighting that you can drive a coach and horses through their 'checks' which are mostly just self-declarations. This issue has only come to light because Neil Robinson was outed on reddit.


Re: Criminal Checks and Potential Illegal Foreigner Crackdown
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2013, 04:54:22 PM »
I find this very odd. When I was hired by my old university and my recent ones, I showed my pure-as-the-driven stuff record. Before I could even get a Z visa to come to China, the Chinese Embassy demanded I went to the police and got a copy of it.

However, there will be the usual rumbling and speeches and Yang Rui of CCTV9 will have a uber-patriotic husband's bulge reporting on how foreigners are bad. According to the news, the English language trade in China is wortn an annual 15 bn, money that undoubtedly finds its way to line the swollen pockets of bureaucrats. There will be no immensely wide-spread crackdown on anything, private language mills will hire people on tourist visas, and the entire thing will be forgotten when the next scandal hits, which will probably be soon. There is one almost every week.

I am, if anyone should think otherwise, firmly in support of people presenting their criminal record to their employer. It is a good way to avoid small children being in a room with perverted creeps.

"Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination." Oscar Wilde.

"It's all oojah cum spiffy". Bertie Wooster.
"The stars are God's daisy chain" Madeleine Bassett.

Re: Criminal Checks and Potential Illegal Foreigner Crackdown
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2013, 05:06:23 PM »
This can also go too far. A convicted traffic violation? A charge of something violent with charges dropped? Embezzlement? Who decides and what would the proper criterea be? Some are obvious of course. I mean the ones that may be decades old or low ranking.

The added problem is that some guys have yet to be cought so no background check will root out these guys
For you to insult me, first I must value your opinion

Re: Criminal Checks and Potential Illegal Foreigner Crackdown
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2013, 05:50:26 PM »
People working with small children should have background checks done. Sex offenders should not be allowed to work with children, period.

This goes to what I said in the other thread though. Chinese schools do not actually care enough to go to the expense required in order to make this happen. There will be, as etr said, the requisite outrage over foreign scum and the accompanying chest thumping and finger pointing, the "get out of our China foreign scum" Weibo posts, but  schools will not pony up the cost of background checks unless they're actually required by law.

And if this becomes a big thing, what do you think the chances are that Yang Rui and his ilk will take this as an opportunity to whine about big bad foreign governments picking on China by not providing background checks for free?


Re: Criminal Checks and Potential Illegal Foreigner Crackdown
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2013, 06:25:56 PM »
i wonder sometimes if schools even bother to google the names of prospective teachers.

A few years ago the quango I was working for hired a new senior executive. I googled his name and told a couple of people what i'd found. The result was that his employment offer was withdrawn.

This was a huge organisation, paying a serious high 6 figure salary, and they hadn't even done an internet search.

I felt a bit guilty for ruining the guy's life. The things I found were more in the line of gossip than verified misdemeanours.







I should have blackmailed him instead. llllllllll

Again, the on-topic part of this is that even without the cost, schools can do at least an internet search.


« Last Edit: April 30, 2013, 06:41:48 PM by Just Like Mr Benn »

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Re: Criminal Checks and Potential Illegal Foreigner Crackdown
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2013, 06:38:28 PM »
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...even without the cost, schools can do at least an internet search.

To be effective, that would require dangerous outside the box thinking, like using Google instead of Baidu, not to mention advanced English language skills such as being able to tell the difference between a first and last name.

Re: Criminal Checks and Potential Illegal Foreigner Crackdown
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2013, 06:42:17 PM »
Don't understand why everyone seems to think the cost of providing the background check would rest on the the schools. Getting the checks is a normal part of going to work in South Korea and the cost of getting that rests very firmly on the applicant... not the school. At least it did for me. It is simply one of the things that you needed to supply.
Sometimes it seems things go by too quickly. We are so busy watching out for what's just ahead of us that we don't take the time to enjoy where we are. (Calvin and Hobbs)

Re: Criminal Checks and Potential Illegal Foreigner Crackdown
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2013, 06:49:11 PM »
Don't understand why everyone seems to think the cost of providing the background check would rest on the the schools. Getting the checks is a normal part of going to work in South Korea and the cost of getting that rests very firmly on the applicant... not the school. At least it did for me. It is simply one of the things that you needed to supply.

True enough. Back home I've never had to pay for my own background check but schools in China could go either way with this one, just like the medical exam.

Re: Criminal Checks and Potential Illegal Foreigner Crackdown
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2013, 06:57:50 PM »
Don't understand why everyone seems to think the cost of providing the background check would rest on the the schools. Getting the checks is a normal part of going to work in South Korea and the cost of getting that rests very firmly on the applicant... not the school. At least it did for me. It is simply one of the things that you needed to supply.

I did not know that.

if it were only to be applied to child protection, I'd be in favour of China copying that.

Unfortunately, as day dreamer pointed out, criminal checks could uncover less relevant or important things such as marijuana possession or being arrested for taking part in political demonstrations. There aresome misdemeanours for which a teacher stating that they will respect the laws and customs of china should be sufficient.

I don't have any kind of criminal record (also as Day Dreamer alluded to, because I didn't get caught. a) not kidding, b) nothing my school needs to worry about), but I'm all for employment of ex-offenders.

I'd be against my Uni hiring someone with a conviction for 'sexual' crimes, because the safety of the students should be safeguarded, but I don't think anyone, even Neil Robinson, should be demonised. In his case he was wanted by the Police for crimes, and I hope he'll be going back to the UK to stand trial.

Re: Criminal Checks and Potential Illegal Foreigner Crackdown
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2013, 09:07:06 PM »
Why should China be different than other places? In Denmark, an employer can demand a copy of a future employee's record. If criminal records were not needed, we would not have invented them. If you were arrested and charged with a crime, it will be on your record. Yes, there is the whole "paid your debt" argument, which I support, but the employer should be allowed to decide whether or not he/she wants to employ a criminal, whether it is car theft, dope dealing or rape the person in question committed.
I, as stated above, had to hand in my record before even being able to get the visa. It did not cost me anything. Go to police, get copy, hand in.
Who exactly decides which crimes are ignorable? Possession of drugs? That is an ignorable crime? If you were hired by a school in the US or the UK and you had to show your criminal record, would a drug charge, however slight, not make said institution raise some eyebrows? Political demonstrations? Which demonstrations? Is China not allowed to decide whether or not it wants FG-fans, free T*bet agitators, Anti-Chinese Govt dissidents in their country or their classrooms?
I am also all for the employment of ex-offenders, as far as I am concerned, if you committed a crime and was sentenced for it, jail or fine, you paid for it. Our criminal justice system is based on the idea of correction or rehabilitation, hence the term correctional facility. Unfortunately, a lot of people do not think so, which is sad. However, I am also in support of full disclosure of all facts on both sides, both the employer and employee, in all cases, if they ask.
I still don't understand how this paedophile could even get a visa to China. I could not get mine without a copy of a record. Oddness...
"Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination." Oscar Wilde.

"It's all oojah cum spiffy". Bertie Wooster.
"The stars are God's daisy chain" Madeleine Bassett.

Re: Criminal Checks and Potential Illegal Foreigner Crackdown
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2013, 09:21:44 PM »
Anecdata here, but in 10 years I've never once been asked for a background check for a visa. Neither have my parents and my mom specifically works with small children. I don't think background checks are the norm etr, most likely your employer was more vigilant than most.

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Guangzhou Writer

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Re: Criminal Checks and Potential Illegal Foreigner Crackdown
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2013, 11:16:35 PM »
There is really no concept of trust in China to begin with, so they don't understand checking people's papers because it can all be faked.

EDITED: got off topic and had a massive rant. Removed it to a better place.

http://raoulschinasaloon.com/index.php?topic=299.msg153592#msg153592

Re: Criminal Checks and Potential Illegal Foreigner Crackdown
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2013, 12:59:46 AM »
As I said, it was not my employer, it was the Visa guys, that is the Chinese embassy, who wanted a copy of the record or else no Z visa.
In Denmark, it is normal, especially in the child education sector, to present a criminal record. Different countries, different rules  agagagagag
"Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination." Oscar Wilde.

"It's all oojah cum spiffy". Bertie Wooster.
"The stars are God's daisy chain" Madeleine Bassett.

Re: Criminal Checks and Potential Illegal Foreigner Crackdown
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2013, 01:35:24 AM »
There is really no concept of trust in China to begin with...

Careful now.

I worked in education in the UK before coming here, so I am all checked and approved and so forth.  Never been asked for any of my paperwork in China though.

Being the uptight chap that I am, and knowing the CRB check rules in the UK quite well, I have even got a criminal record check from within China (as in, from the Chinese police!) How did I achieve this amazing feat you may ask?  Well now, I had the FAO write a letter which said I had not committed any form of crime or political misdeeds, had the local Chengguan office stamp it and then had it notarized by a public notary.  Not exactly watertight I know, but better than nothing and the CRB people in UK accept it as proof that I have been a good boy.

Should you ever want to work in education outside China, I would recommend doing this.


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Re: Criminal Checks and Potential Illegal Foreigner Crackdown
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2013, 02:06:02 AM »
Good suggestion, bobrage.