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Author Topic: Obnoxious Laowai Attitudes (was "Teachers" you'd like to school!!)  (Read 20621 times)

decurso

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Re: Obnoxious Laowai Attitudes (was "Teachers" you'd like to school!!)
« Reply #60 on: September 16, 2007, 03:37:21 AM »
So the argument is that everyone should be paid the wages of the most expensive country in the world to live in?  That would make it fair then for a Japanese teacher who took a job in the US to be paid to fly home, plus the equivalent money they would have been paid in Japan while they were in the US, instead of local wages.  Ahh.....


No, no not at all. I don't really even have an argument I am just stating what I think is a pretty obvious fact. Higher wages would most likely attract more qualified teachers. With the current standard for salaries schools are forced to take what they can get. As BD put it it's the cheapest teacher who gets the job...not the best.

decurso

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Re: Obnoxious Laowai Attitudes (was "Teachers" you'd like to school!!)
« Reply #61 on: September 16, 2007, 04:20:20 AM »
Um..I should point out it would be hypocritical of me not mention that if this country had the highest of standards I might not be here. I had never taught before coming here and despite having been told by many colleagues I am a damn good teacher my TEFL certificate is not recognized in Canada.

 My point here is that I don't mean to complain about the wages ect. but I do want to point out the direct corelation between the wages and the lack of qualified teachers.

Con ate dog

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Re: Obnoxious Laowai Attitudes (was "Teachers" you'd like to school!!)
« Reply #62 on: September 18, 2007, 02:14:39 AM »
So the argument is that everyone should be paid the wages of the most expensive country in the world to live in?  That would make it fair then for a Japanese teacher who took a job in the US to be paid to fly home, plus the equivalent money they would have been paid in Japan while they were in the US, instead of local wages.  Ahh.....

It's not only fair, it's standard practice.

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I am sure the US teacher working alongside that Japanese teacher would be more than happy for them to work less, be paid more and be given all of the extras - merely because it will cost the Japanese teacher a trip home to find things that are suitable, and that they gave up a good wage (or being unemployed) to be in the US.

If the course is Conversational Japanese, then perhaps the native Japanese speaker is better qualified.  And do you really think the American teacher would resent his colleague's free ticket home for Xmas?

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My conditions and wages are better than my co-workers - I do get the return flights - either as cash or tickets every year, my housing is way better than other single teachers, I work fewer hours, pay no tax (which for foreigners begins at a higher scale anyway - 1500Y for locals, 4800Y for us), I don't pay gas or electricity, I'm given a good computer, laser printer, 24 hours internet connection etc. for preparation.  My apartment is furnished with microwave, rice cooker, TV, refrigerator, washing machine, desks bookshelves etc etc.  I have 24 hours hot water. Local teachers here get a bed, chair, desk - the rest - including cooking equipment, water heater etc is out of their pocket. Anything breaks, the waiban will fix it immediately at no cost to me.  I get free hospital/health stuff at the best hospital in the city.


You have a better deal than I have, and I have no doubt that you're worth every fen.  Do you feel guilty that you're making too much money?

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Naturally I'd love more money - who doesn't either here or at home? But I think we do need to be a bit realistic about we want and expect.

Precisely my point: to go home costs me nearly 12,000 kwai for the ticket and at least 400 kwai a day while I'm at home.  This is a cost that Chinese don't bear.  I must save it up myself.  If a school won't pay me enough for me to do so, I will not sign with them- no complaints, no hard feelings, but no deal.

The argument that Chinese teachers make less therefore I should too is BULLSHIT.  Fart, moo.





« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 02:18:11 AM by Con ate dog »
And there is no liar like the indignant man... -Nietszche

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Lotus Eater

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Re: Obnoxious Laowai Attitudes (was "Teachers" you'd like to school!!)
« Reply #63 on: September 18, 2007, 02:54:37 AM »

It's not only fair, it's standard practice.

It's not standard practice in Australia. If you are a QUALIFIED teacher (ie the only ones that can be employed) then you are paid local wages for your experience and qualifications.  The same with any other job.  Backpackers, the unskilled do NOT get paid more than locals for any position they take on.

And I doubt that every expat in the States gets paid the highest wages. Ask a few Mexicans, South Americans or Cubans - even the ones who are there legally. (Also see below for the reality)

 
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And do you really think the American teacher would resent his colleague's free ticket home for Xmas?
Yes - they would. Why should an expat be given extra advantages over locals?  That person CHOSE to relocate.  Should people who move from Texas to Montana be given airfares back home as well??

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Do you feel guilty that you're making too much money?
Sometimes.  But not enough to give it back!  ahahahahah ahahahahah

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Precisely my point: to go home costs me nearly 12,000 kwai for the ticket and at least 400 kwai a day while I'm at home.  This is a cost that Chinese don't bear.
And you get probably at least double the money they do - with the same cost of living here. The Chinese also have other costs that we don't bear - taxes, extended family commitments, paying for accommodation, health care, internet connection, electricity, gas etc.

And - the facts don't stand up to the claims. These companies are hiring people with specialised skills in industries of need.  Do they offer return airfare, accommodation etc????

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By Jon Dougherty
© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

A new report says foreigners granted temporary visas to work in the United States are paid far less than their American counterparts, despite a federal law requiring employers to provide them with fair compensation.

The Center for Immigration Studies said the visa program, known as H1-B, allows U.S. firms to hire professional-level workers from other countries for periods up to six years, provided they are paid the same as comparable American workers or the "prevailing wage" for that job, whichever is higher.

John Miano, author of the study, said the law was designed "to prevent the hiring of foreign workers from depressing U.S. wages and to protect foreign workers from exploitation."

But, he says, according to federal wage data provided by the U.S. Department of Labor, computer programming firms are instead, on average, paying foreign workers far less than American workers.

Among Miano's findings:

    * On average, H1-B applications for foreign computer workers were for wages $13,000 less than for American employees in the same occupation and state.

    * Wages for H1-B workers are "overwhelmingly concentrated at the bottom of the U.S. pay scale."

    * Nearly half of applications for H1-B computer programming workers (47 percent) "were for wages below even the prevailing wage claimed by their employers," while just 4 percent were among the top 25 percent of wages for equivalent U.S. workers.

    * Employers hiring more H1-B workers tend to pay them less than comparable U.S. workers; employers making application for more than 100 H1-B workers pay them $9,000 less per year on average than U.S. workers doing the same job.

The U.S. Chamber of Commerce also supports the program.

"In addition to essential workers, the U.S. economy continues to need access to skilled workers in many sectors. Access to technology, scientific, education, health, and engineering workers, which the United States is not producing in adequate numbers, continues to be a Chamber priority," it says.





« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 02:58:40 AM by Lotus Eater »

Mr Nobody

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Re: Obnoxious Laowai Attitudes (was "Teachers" you'd like to school!!)
« Reply #64 on: September 18, 2007, 04:06:12 AM »
I think many Laowai should be thanking their lucky stars to get paid at all, and if they don't like it, maybe they should go back to where they were happy about the pay.

Or were they? Why are they here? If it is for adventure, then adventure includes some sacrifice. If it was for money, then go home. I am sure that people can work out their own priorities adequately without guidance from me.
Just another roadkill on the information superhighway.

decurso

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Re: Obnoxious Laowai Attitudes (was "Teachers" you'd like to school!!)
« Reply #65 on: September 18, 2007, 05:50:45 AM »
I think many Laowai should be thanking their lucky stars to get paid at all, and if they don't like it, maybe they should go back to where they were happy about the pay.

 I agree and I certainly am not complaining. By current standards in this country I have it pretty good. LOTS of time off and the school can actually arrange well paying extra work for me if want it...which I don't.

 However I have many friends in Canada and the US who are very qualified career teachers. Many hold Masters degrees, some are published authors and most have more than 10 years experience teaching both in North America and Asia. Not one of them would ever consider coming to teach in China. The money simply is shit here.That's not a complaint...it's just a fact. Forget about the ridiculous "cost of living" argument or the equally ridiculous  "we make more them" argument. These people have families to support, debts to pay and have invested a substantial ammount of money in their education. 10 k simply doesn't cut it when they can go to Japan or Korea and make 2000-3000 USD a month and still live well enough to bank half their pay.

 The thing is...most of them WANT to come China and would if the money was better. I suspect they represent a fairly large group of people. As a result China is forced to simply take what it can get which often is the kind of teachers who just come here for a lark and could give two shits about their professional responsibilities.

Mr Nobody

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Re: Obnoxious Laowai Attitudes (was "Teachers" you'd like to school!!)
« Reply #66 on: September 18, 2007, 05:55:40 AM »
That's partly my point.

On the reverse side - If China enforced good qualifications, then they would have to pay more, and many so called FTs wouldn't get paid at all. If schools pay less, they can't get the people with qualifications, so gotta get the people who don't have them. People who are here must be here for other reasons, or aren't qualified to get the big educational bucks in their own countries. So either way, can't really complain.

Can't have it every way.
Just another roadkill on the information superhighway.

Con ate dog

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Re: Obnoxious Laowai Attitudes (was "Teachers" you'd like to school!!)
« Reply #67 on: September 18, 2007, 09:57:44 AM »
There's the rub: none of us would be here if we didn't like the place.  Apart from the insane.  Those ducking indictment back home.  Those unqualified to teach in most countries, and too broke to move to Vietnam.  Those with children here. 
And there is no liar like the indignant man... -Nietszche

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Eagle

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Re: Obnoxious Laowai Attitudes (was "Teachers" you'd like to school!!)
« Reply #68 on: September 18, 2007, 11:12:33 AM »
Or those who are indeed very qualified but retired thus not needing much money.  Truth is, it becomes a paid vacation of sorts.  I work at spending all that I make (not too successfully) by travelling as often as possible, eating well and ...  I don't touch the pension which just keeps gathering dust back home (won't talk about interest as it is almost non-existent).  There aren't many of us doing this as most retired teachers seem to by a bit conservative and stay-at-home types.
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Lotus Eater

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Re: Obnoxious Laowai Attitudes (was "Teachers" you'd like to school!!)
« Reply #69 on: September 18, 2007, 11:30:14 AM »
It basically comes back to what China wants - not what we want.  The schools want foreign faces and accents - they don't really want highly qualified and experienced teachers.  They figure they pretty much have them - the Chinese teachers/professors etc - no matter what we think of them. So why pay for something you don't necessarily want? If you want a throw-away point and shoot camera you sure as hell don't go out and buy the most expensive SLR.

When China wants highly qualified foreign teachers, then there will be movement in the wages. But even so - other countries during teacher shortages have recruited overseas - but only paid airfares and settlement allowances - not higher wages than the locals are receiving.

People looking for career paths and high wages are going to build those things at home - very few achieve them overseas as teachers.

The cost of living argument is not 'dubious' - it is what wages are based on in almost every country in the world.  The argument run by unions for wage rises every few years always cites the rise in the cost of living one reason for the rise in wages. Social Security systems usually have automatic cost-of-living adjustments in them for pensions etc.  It is an IMPORTANT part of salary levels. 

George

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Re: Obnoxious Laowai Attitudes (was "Teachers" you'd like to school!!)
« Reply #70 on: September 18, 2007, 11:54:39 AM »
I am here because I want to be here. I originally came as a sort of experiment...suck-it-and-see, sort of thing. I'm still here after 5 1/2 years, but now I have different reasons for staying. I get enough money here to live very comfortably, but I don't expect to take great wads of it home. Exchange rates see to that! If you go to live in a country with a low currency value, what do you expect? My sister gets paid in UD$. She has lost a small fortune since the USD has lost value against the AUD. I live here just as well as she does in Australia, but basic necessities cost me less. Cigs, wine, beer, etc, the essentials of life!! afafafafaf I spend around 100RMB each week on Taxi fares. She spent over $250 on taxis last weekend ferrying my mother home from hospital, including visits etc....a distance of 30 miles!
A top-of-the-ladder teacher in Victoria can expect around 65,000 pa. Yer not gunna get many Chinese Schools paying their foreign teachers RMB408,000 pa.
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cheekygal

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Re: Obnoxious Laowai Attitudes (was "Teachers" you'd like to school!!)
« Reply #71 on: September 18, 2007, 03:35:53 PM »
Well, foreign teachers in BKC where I worked before coming China, were paid less than I was in my first gig in China and the hours load was twice for them. Only International schools pay high salaries in Russia. The training centers and schools don't.

birddog

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Re: Obnoxious Laowai Attitudes (was "Teachers" you'd like to school!!)
« Reply #72 on: September 18, 2007, 08:03:56 PM »
I have honestly tried to refrain from perpetuating this futile discussion regarding salary. It seems to come down to people's own individual financial situation (i.e. some who have pensions piling up back home, some who love a chellenge and will wait for the money to come later, etc.) that informs their theories and attitudes regarding FT wages in China. I could go on and on, but we're clearly in gridlock at this point. Let me leave it by saying I agree with decurso's postings on this issue completely!

« Last Edit: September 19, 2007, 12:34:24 AM by birddog »
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