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[mustachioed-ken]

I'm completely ignorant as to what it's actually like as a Laowai in China. This may or may not be a taboo topic among Laowai, but what I'd like to hear is your personal opinion as to the level of racism you feel on a daily, weekly or monthly basis. Now of course racism exists everywhere, and I'm not interested in pointing the finger at China, but since this forum exists for foreigners IN China, I think it's an important question to ask. Now sure, I've read a lot, and know of the history and current political differences the west and China face, but what's important to me is to hear the personal stories. Do you find your relationship with the Chinese impeded upon by political or social and economic factors? Is there resentment that an English teacher (or whatever your occupation may be) has the potential to earn such a drastically higher wage than the locals?

Obviously I'm not talking about the simple staring or "hallo" but attempting to take a stab at deep-rooted factors and how they shape your experiences in China. As a related point - I'd also like to ask, how often do you encounter street beggers? And what is your stance here?

Next, besides the economic factors to consider, are there other elements you find to drastically shape your relationship with people or experiences in the country? Is a Laowai obliged to 'kiss the ass of China'? (From what I've gathered the Chinese are quite proud of their culture.) Also do you ever find the feeling of being an 'oddity' in most circumstances unbearable? (Yes this is quite subjective, I'm just wondering your personal opinion.) I have experienced the constant feeling of being an oddity in Japan (don't know how it compares to China - maybe an old hand at both can fill me in) and I'd say after not too long, I became used to it.

Yeah, we'll, huge amount of complex questions here - feel free to answer some or none or all. Up to you. And sorry if this is a question don't like being asked or are sick of being asked. I couldn't find a topic on all the questions I wanted to ask (maybe it's not as big a deal as I'm trying to emotionally prepare myself for). Anyways, if you do not like the topic please don't reply. I am only asking to try and fill a hole in my ignorance. Thank you.

[Fozzwaldus]

huge topic, here's my less-than-huge answer.

racism is ever-present and tolerable, that is if you count stereotyping and over-charging and positive-discrimiation on the basis that you are white (can't speak for other colours) as racism, because it is, isn't it? I have never felt threatened because of racism, I have never felt hated on more than one or two occasions since 2003. It's generally low key, often well-intentioned, and, as I said, tolerable, if you are a patient person.

resentment? times have changed, and unless you're earning more than the average language-mill is willing to pay, then chances are that people in your city will now be earning a lot more than you. that said, the young admin staff in your school will be earning less and be required to do a lot more. also, migrant workers are a whole other story, but I don't think anybody blames laowai for the rural-urban divide in China.

kissing China's ass? just show respect like you would in any country. trying to learn the language goes a long way. not preaching on the basis of western superiority goes a long way. you can approach sensitive topics with friends, and sometimes even students, but it's better to ask questions and let them talk rather than tell them what the fact of the matter is. everybody likes to think foreigners in their country have a positive view of said country - I'm no exception with regards to Ireland. just be polite.

[The Local Dialect]

Pretty loaded question Ken. Right now my husband is making a huge racket on the djembe and I can't formulate a coherent thought but I'll be back to write more when it is quieter.

I will say that some of the attitudes towards outsiders are similar to what you're used to in Japan although the way those attitudes are expressed are not always the same.

[mustachioed-ken]

Yeah, you're right, it is a bit of a loaded question, I suppose I should have just asked whether serious racism exists rather than assuming it exists and then asking what ones experiences were. I'm kind of hoping for the best but expecting the worst, because I'm both ignorant and curious.

What I meant by kissing China's ass may have sounded extreme, which could be because in my preparation and research I've read some accounts which make the Chinese seem some what fanatical in how deeply they expect you to praise their country. I've also read that that isn't true, so maybe I should just go there and experience things without a biased perception of what I may encounter. Still, I wanted to hear what you all had to say.

It's good to know though that you don't feel resentment or hatred regularly, as ignorance and curiosity are one thing, but direct negativity (at least on a daily or weekly basis) does not sound fun. I suppose I'm used to the feeling of being different in a new culture and having the locals act curious towards me, but what I was wondering is whether China holds any further obstacles in the way for Laowai. And yes, I ask this because of historical and somewhat ongoing hiccups in our countries relationships, politically.

What I'm hoping to hear and what it sounds like is that your average Chinese person doesn't care. When I spent two days there I didn't experience any direct hostile racism... Besides the first taxi I tried to take from the airport to the hostel overpricing and then being angry with me when I wanted to get in the next cab. Other than that people seemed surprisingly open to talk to me.

It does sound some what similar to Japan, in fact. There is a lot of stereotyping and breaking what we have built up to be political correctness, but that never bothered me. Well, actually, that's not true. Occasionally it did, but what I found more frustrating was how I couldn't call it out when I saw it (Japaneae public-face etc) - sounds similar to China. It's not a huge deal though, just some what annoying. China does seem a little more open though. In Japan a lot of people see some what frightened of even standing near a white guy at the train station.

[old34]

kissing China's ass? just show respect like you would in any country. trying to learn the language goes a long way. not preaching on the basis of western superiority goes a long way. you can approach sensitive topics with friends, and sometimes even students, but it's better to ask questions and let them talk rather than tell them what the fact of the matter is. everybody likes to think foreigners in their country have a positive view of said country - I'm no exception with regards to Ireland. just be polite.

These words are worth their weight in gold for newbies and newsters.

[Foscolo]

It's a while since I was there, But I pretty much only felt conscious of the inverse racism. My socio-economic status seemed higher than back home, superficially at least.

Obviously, there's more to it than that and experiences vary, but given that 'racism' is also the word used to describe life-ruining discrimination, I'm not sure it's entirely appropriate here. Perhaps 'ignorant prejudice' would be better. But what do I know? It's a sensitive issue, and I certainly don't want start an argument.

[Arnold J. Rimmer]

You will find that the reactions to you are totally different to Japan. The Japanese are much more private and, well, just quieter than the Chinese. In China, privacy and personal space are almost non-existent so people will think nothing of shouting 'hello' in your face, joining you at your table while you are eating or watching the doctor poke at you in the hospital. This was hard for me to get used to, but get used to it I did.

The only country in which I experienced outright racism was Korea. I consider myself fairly well-travelled, and Korea is the only place in the world where I have been rejected from establishments simply because I am a foreigner. They will just tell you as you try to walk into, say, a club... "no foreigners". Also if you dare to walk around the streets holding hands with a Korean girl you get the most hostile, dirty looks from Korean men.

Fuck Korea.

Anyway, back on topic. I think the Chinese are immensely proud of their own ethnicity, culture and history but they don't necessarily look down on others (unless they are black or south east Asian).

[mustachioed-ken]

Thanks Arnold. I heard the same thing about Korea. So the Chinese don't care if you date a local? I heard occasionally you might get a comment, but I suppose at least it's direct. Nothing worse than a thousand dirty looks and then everyone saying they have no problem.

It sounds quite cool to have people so curious they want to come up and chat. Yeah, in Japan that almost never happens. Japan can be a lonely place when you first get there and don't know anyone. That's why I always recommend everyone to live at guest houses, although even then, I've heard stories of people staying at completely anti-social guesthouses where a hundred people live for a whole year without anyone becoming friends. Awkward.

I'm also quite polite and definitely not the type to like, force my stupid beliefs, etc on people who don't want to listen, so I don't think I'll have a problem there. And I never wanted to be the kind of guy who just speaks English abroad (shudder) so of course, trying to learn the local dialect will show you actually respect the culture and country. Learning it through pimsleur now. Tones.. Oh tones, why must you berate me so? Plus sichuanese accent? My God. At least I'll know the basics before arriving,

[The Local Dialect]

Anything negative you'll get in China will generally be subtle. I wouldn't really call it racism (when we took cultural theory classes in college we were taught that racism has a necessary component of power -- basically, only groups with the power to dominate other groups can be "racist." So any discussion of Chinese racism is going to be very complex).

If you're talking about negative reactions to your foreigness, then yes, there can be subtle negativities. Men will experience these more than women. I definitely would not go so far as to say that people don't care if you date a local. I had a friend who was attacked in a bar for nothing more than dancing with a Chinese girl. Lots of times normal confrontations will escalate if there is a foreigner involved. Many reasons for this. Normally though, you will not get a lot of overt hostility in your day to day life. Once you've been here awhile you will become more skilled on picking up the small micro-aggressions, as a friend of mine on another forum called them (actually, she took the term from this article about Japan, which has a lot of relevance to what we experience in China http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/fl20120501ad.html). 

It is also true that you will get positive reactions to your foreignness. It just depends. Some of the positive reactions are not necessarily all positive, but they come off that way. If you read the article about micro-aggressions, the stuff about "wow you can use chopsticks!" or "your Chinese is sooo good!" rings incredibly true. Those interactions are, on the surface, positive, but no one who has been here for more than about a year enjoys hearing these things, and not just because it gets tedious (although it does) but because those remarks send a message about our place in China.

Of course there is also the overcharging in the stores -- you know, the assumption that we're either rich or stupid or both, largely perpetuated by tourists who come in here and go nuts due to the exchange rate and act like RMB is play money. Taxi drivers refusing to pick you up because they're afraid of "mafan," or trouble. Shop clerks pretending they don't understand you when you speak Chinese when really they just don't want to deal with you.

I absolutely agree with AJR about the way people's attitudes will manifest themselves in Japan versus China. The Chinese are loud. They're often friendly. They'll invite you over for a beer and then proceed to give you the third degree about which country you like better, China or America. They'll give you shit about America's foreign policy (this is when it comes in handy to be from a small inoffensive country that most Chinese people couldn't even locate on a map) and make statements that start off with "your America" and "you Americans" and "our China," "we Chinese." Chinese people love to make generalizations based on race and ethnicity and if you disagree with them they still won't believe you. All in good fun.

There are a couple of threads here that talk about some of this. If you look at some of the recent threads about crackdowns on foreigners, and one about being noticed, they touch on some of these issues.

I will say though that if you are dark skinned -- African or South Asian or Middle Eastern -- you will probably encounter some appallingly racist attitudes at some point. Just last week I had a discussion with one of my co-workers, a highly educated woman who has traveled and studied abroad, who in all honesty really and truly believes that black people are intellectually inferior to other races. I watched her give a presentation to prospective students about studying in America and on her PPT there was a slide about the percentage of African American population in various American cities so they could avoid those places. You should have seen my face . . .

[mustachioed-ken]

Ah, yes. The ol 'you can use chopsticks' and 'you speak so well' treatment - sounds very familiar. It's kind of weird that both cultures would react the same way to foreigners, even down to small details like that. I mean, these are cultures which have evolved (at least in modern times) mostly independent of each other. But I guess it has more to do with the fact that we Laowai compromise what, 0.00001% of the Chinese population, if that.

One of the most exciting factors for me and I'm sure everyone is feeling like a pioneer (for me it was in Japan, for you China) - there's a rewarding feeling knowing you are 'one of the first'. Still, contrast that with the feeling that our native countries have been multi-culturalised for decades, and you have some confusion. There's a feeling of wanting to bring political correctness over, but of course, that's silly.

China sounds very similar to Japan in terms of 'dealing with outsiders' - probably because they are both groupcentric cultures. The fact that the Chinese are more open though, I think gives the laowai an advantage over the gaijin.

One time in Japan I found myself in a situation where I almost felt bullied into praising their country. Some nationalists quietly pushed me into praising Japan while subtly putting down my own country. I was quite new to JP at that time and felt like 'in Japan its rude to be overt' so I stupidly didn't stick up for myself. Also what was annoying was everyone just happily followed the nationalists like sheep. It was all so subtle and passive aggressive. Chinese seem more overt. But it is a form of the majority having power over the minority - yet what kind of power? An ego boost? Social politics? I don't know.

Regardless, I'm happy to hear this, I thought it might be a lot worse. Ya know, you hear some things, read a bit of history, do the math in terms of economic/political factors, and then start wondering...

I'm sure black people get a lot of overt/ignorant racism though too - just like in Japan. Having said that though I probably saw more black people (and more black people hanging with locals) during my two days in Beijing as to my 21 months in Tokyo. I only talked to two black guys in Japan: both married and deeply angry.

[George]

. But I guess it has more to do with the fact that we Laowai compromise what, 0.00001% of the Chinese population, if that.

I think Zero has compromised way more than that, all by hisself!

[Fozzwaldus]

TLD - good article that...

however, I've found that, in China at least - and perhaps this is a reflection of the rough-and-tumble nature of their society where everything is changing at hyper speed and everything is negotiable and up for grabs - that while you might initially get the 'your Chinese is so good' or 'chopsticks' etc, once you show yourself to be knowledgable in the language and culture it's not that hard to be taken seriously by the Chinese people around you.

there will always be people who cannot help but revert to type however, clinging to whatever preconceptions they have about you because the sight of a China-literate fluent-Chinese-speaking laowai in their midst is just too troublesome to slot into their world view.

an example of this is, my XJ 'uncles' (not my parents in law, I should add), that I drink baijiu with every year who after a few shots are all 'you are like this and we are like this' ... I just don't bother correcting anything too silly anymore, I just make a joke out of it where I can, and some people at the table are usually happy to take my side. I'm in their 'circle' through marriage and I've made a good stab at it, and they have been very welcoming, but the position still needs to be redefined every time we meet.

I think the point is that you need to have a proficient level of the  local language in order to expect to be taken seriously as a member of any society. Poor language skills immediately get you dumped into whatever role they have for illiterate immigrants (which is FAR less pleasant in the west than in China where we are allowed to live priviledged albeit stereotyped lifestyles!). Good language skills make an immediate impact, and I've seen this in Ireland, where, say, a Pole who speaks excellent English is treated in an entirely different way because of assumptions about his background and education etc.



...ramble... first thing in the morning... feel free to contradict...

[The Local Dialect]

I agree that speaking Chinese well helps a lot. Probably what helps more is people actually getting to know us. I feel like the snap judgements/microagressions are made regardless of Chinese fluency or not (we were in an antique store one day with my dad. I was speaking entirely in Chinese to these people and the point had already come up that we lived in Beijing and yet they kept on saying stuff like "you can pay in dollars if you don't have RMB" and "we can ship back to your home country") and people just don't let it go. Like your Xinjiang uncles. But your relationships with those people are mostly superficial.

Obviously Chinese skills make it easier to relate to Chinese people on any sort of real level. I think when Chinese people are forced to interact with us in English their automatic impulse is to slip into a sort of "guide" role to our "guest," where they need to help and protect the confused outsider. Obviously that has a marginalizing effect. Speaking Chinese helps a lot in breaking down those walls and I think it is much easier to form deeper relationships with Chinese friends using Chinese than it is using English. YMMV though.

[Fozzwaldus]

I think when Chinese people are forced to interact with us in English their automatic impulse is to slip into a sort of "guide" role to our "guest," where they need to help and protect the confused outsider. Obviously that has a marginalizing effect.

and to be honest, many laowai will reinforce those roles, if they're touring through China/only in China for a short time (1/2 years) and expect to have an FAO/student guide for everything (these people are legion!) and more annoyingly the people who are long-stays and still behave like that! these people, I imagine, are becoming less frequent in big cities, but they are the main cause of the 'laowais need special attention' thing, and also the 'laowais are troublesome' thing. both of which are not solely over-applied steroetypes (which they are), but also have a basis in reality.

there's no point railing against special treatment if you need it (and some people do). I can imagine the interaction with the antique dealer was annoying, but you can imagine that for 99% of her interactions with laowai, she was spot on. *we* (the old China hands who want to be accepted!) are the minority, still, I'd imagine. I might be wrong.

anyways, just devil's-advocating here instead writing an essay 

[mustachioed-ken]

I can definitely understand that. Learning Chinese is a huge hurdle which probably turns a lot of people off. For me, I hope to have an okay basis upon arrival to grow from. Obviously becoming fluent is a huge other beast in itself that requires years of dedication. I expect that past the basic Hanzi I won't be learning all 5000 or whatever characters needed to read a newspaper - but if I'm to ever reach fluency it will be speaking/listening only. It's a huge mountain to climb with vocab memorization/tonal registration as it is.

Another good thing about China VS Japan though seems to be that if one can speak any amount of Chinese people will speak back to you in Chinese (once again, based off a mere two day exp). In Japan this almost never happens, and even if your Japanese far outweighs their English you will play tug of war between the two languages until someone (me) just gives up.