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Author Topic: Business Visa  (Read 4103 times)

A-Train

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Business Visa
« on: July 06, 2012, 01:20:34 PM »
I've just taken a job with a reputable English university that has a presence in China.  To avoid a timeline crunch they are asking me to teach for one semester with a Business visa instead of the proper sort.  This has been done with success on other occasions and I'm certain this will be rectified in time for the Spring semester, but what sort of risk am I taking next Fall? They tell me I can get a 3-month visa with a 3-month extension subsequently.  I've taught here for over two years with a proper visa and this group has vast and knowledgable advisors on the subject, but I'm always a bit leery when "exceptions" are brought to the fore.

Any advice?
"The young do not know enough to be prudent, and therefore attempt the impossible and achieve it, generation after generation.

Pearl S. Buck

KeyserSoze

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Re: Business Visa
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2012, 01:29:57 PM »
That may give them an excuse to let you go at the end of the fall semester with little to no risk on their side.

old34

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Re: Business Visa
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2012, 01:30:09 PM »
I've just taken a job with a reputable English university that has a presence in China.  To avoid a timeline crunch they are asking me to teach for one semester with a Business visa instead of the proper sort.  This has been done with success on other occasions and I'm certain this will be rectified in time for the Spring semester, but what sort of risk am I taking next Fall? They tell me I can get a 3-month visa with a 3-month extension subsequently.  I've taught here for over two years with a proper visa and this group has vast and knowledgable advisors on the subject, but I'm always a bit leery when "exceptions" are brought to the fore.

Any advice?

First question: Where? (as in what province, which locality?)

F-visas can be used legitimately but only under limited circumstances and if done correctly. Most don't do it correctly. The key is a position limited to 6 months or less. Longer than that, and a Z-visa/RP is required.

I wouldn't work on an F, but if I had no other choice, I'd put in a provision (not necessarily in the contract, but in a side letter), that if they fail to provide a valid Z-visa/RP within 6 months, they have to pay, say, a penalty payment of 2 months pay. It may not be enforceable against them, but if they hesitate at agreeing to that, you can be pretty sure they can't/have no intention of switching you to legal on a Z/RP.

Alternatively, asking for that...they'll know you're up-to-date on Chinese visa rules and they may just decide that, Fuck it! they'll spend the few extra man-hours to process you legally. After all, it's only early July and, as you said it was a university, they have plenty of time before a September start.

The new rules passed last weekend would alter this advice as they significantly limit use of an F-visa, but my understanding from what I have read is that they don't go into effect until after the summer or maybe next year (depending on who you read).

« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 01:47:04 PM by old34 »
Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit; wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad. - B. O'Driscoll.
TIC is knowing that, in China, your fruit salad WILL come with cherry tomatoes AND all slathered in mayo. - old34.

Raoul F. Duke

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Re: Business Visa
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2012, 07:11:37 PM »
Your school's idea is bad, A-Train, and I strongly recommend you don't take it. kkkkkkkkkk

It puts you at risk just like any other situation that has you working without the permits.
It does indeed raise your exposure to getting cut for the Fall semester.
It sounds a lot like they plan to keep stringing you along on an illegal visa for as long as they can get away with it.
The "timeline crunch" thing doesn't seem to make much sense...all they have to do is get your application in process.

It sounds to me like they're just trying to suck you in for minimal risk and expense. My advice is to tell them it's "legal or nothing"... asasasasas
"Vicodin and dumplings...it's a great combination!" (Anthony Bourdain, in Harbin)

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we're building the corrupt, incompetent, baijiu-swilling buttheads of tomorrow!" (Raoul F. Duke)

Ruth

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Re: Business Visa
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2012, 04:07:57 AM »
The "timeline crunch" thing doesn't seem to make much sense...all they have to do is get your application in process.
Nothing to add to what the others have said, but the 'timeline crunch' makes perfect sense to me from my experience at the uni where I work. Tomorrow is the last official day of the semester at 'my' uni. Everyone is more than ready for holidays. Things shut down and the place becomes a ghost town. Nothing gets done because no one is in the office. Early July seems like enough time to us to get things processed, but take 5 or 6 weeks out of that for vacation and you are down to a few days. If they wait for the office to open a few days before the new semester, they are - indeed - in a timeline crunch.

Perhaps the uni you are corresponding with has the same situation. Even if the FAO wanted to work to process your application, Personnel and HR staff might not be around. Those folks are all part of the food chain when my stuff gets processed.
If you want to walk on water, you have to get out of the boat.

Raoul F. Duke

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Re: Business Visa
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2012, 05:10:50 AM »
Hmmm...yes, what you're saying does make sense...

But not sure it helps. If this is the case, they're offering a job they have no ability to support.

Also...could kinda see it if they were unable to process a visa until the Fall semester starts and everyone returns to the office, but there's no real justification for putting it off until the Spring. kkkkkkkkkk
"Vicodin and dumplings...it's a great combination!" (Anthony Bourdain, in Harbin)

"Here in China we aren't just teaching...
we're building the corrupt, incompetent, baijiu-swilling buttheads of tomorrow!" (Raoul F. Duke)

A-Train

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Re: Business Visa
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2012, 10:28:15 AM »
Thanks for the information.  I think the "time crunch" issue stems from the fact that I'll be working for a university in England and will have to go through the visa morass there as well as China's. All of this has put them in a tizzy because they started the hiring process way too late. 

I have no concerns about their integrity, I just was not sure if working here for an entire semester under a Business visa could possibly put me in the soup, legally.  It appears from the comments that that part is copacetic.

Thanks.
"The young do not know enough to be prudent, and therefore attempt the impossible and achieve it, generation after generation.

Pearl S. Buck

Stil

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Re: Business Visa
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2012, 12:34:25 PM »
I've got no advice A-Train other than to tell you that something feels off about it.

By the way, it's not late for the hiring process. It's earlier than a lot of places. Arrive at the beginning of September and have your papers processed then is the norm, not doing that before the the summer break. They have 1 month after you arrive to put the papers in, then however long it takes to process doesn't matter.

This sounds like a place that expects to have their ticket to hire foreigners granted next spring.

Have you talked to incumbent foreigners there?

Raoul F. Duke

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Re: Business Visa
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2012, 08:52:04 PM »
I just was not sure if working here for an entire semester under a Business visa could possibly put me in the soup, legally.  It appears from the comments that that part is copacetic.

Not sure how you're getting to that conclusion. Working a semester on a Business visa could most definitely be a legal problem for you...
"Vicodin and dumplings...it's a great combination!" (Anthony Bourdain, in Harbin)

"Here in China we aren't just teaching...
we're building the corrupt, incompetent, baijiu-swilling buttheads of tomorrow!" (Raoul F. Duke)

old34

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Re: Business Visa
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2012, 05:16:49 AM »
Here's what can happen if you work without a permit despite having a contract with a probationary period:

http://www.shanghaidaily.com/nsp/Metro/2012/07/06/Expat%2Bwithout%2Bwork%2Bpermit%2Bloses%2Blawsuit/
Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit; wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad. - B. O'Driscoll.
TIC is knowing that, in China, your fruit salad WILL come with cherry tomatoes AND all slathered in mayo. - old34.

Raoul F. Duke

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Re: Business Visa
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2012, 05:35:00 AM »
Good article...and not even representative of the very worst things that could happen to you.
Again...how anyone could come to the conclusion that working without the proper documents could ever  be "copacetic" is beyond my imagination.
"Vicodin and dumplings...it's a great combination!" (Anthony Bourdain, in Harbin)

"Here in China we aren't just teaching...
we're building the corrupt, incompetent, baijiu-swilling buttheads of tomorrow!" (Raoul F. Duke)

A-Train

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Re: Business Visa
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2012, 07:17:39 AM »
Good article...and not even representative of the very worst things that could happen to you.
Again...how anyone could come to the conclusion that working without the proper documents could ever  be "copacetic" is beyond my imagination.

Old34's comments were: "F-visas can be used legitimately but only under limited circumstances and if done correctly....The new rules passed last weekend would alter this advice as they significantly limit use of an F-visa, but my understanding from what I have read is that they don't go into effect until after the summer or maybe next year (depending on who you read)."

This seems to say that it's tricky, but legal.  The article he posted is, by and large, a civil matter with only a vague reference to legalities at the end.

You've made reference to "working with improper documents". From Old34's comments I drew the conclusion that teaching for less than six months was NOT working with improper documents.  Now I have a headache.  Is teaching with a Business visa for one semester legal or not?!?!

I have no concerns about being "strung along" by this university.  Their reputation, (despite being in England), is beyond reproach.  I only care about the legalities of teaching on aBusiness visa in China.


"The young do not know enough to be prudent, and therefore attempt the impossible and achieve it, generation after generation.

Pearl S. Buck

old34

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Re: Business Visa
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2012, 08:09:34 AM »
You left out the second part of the paragraph you quoted me on, so here it is again: "The key is a position limited to 6 months or less. Longer than that, and a Z-visa/RP is required."

You've said you are going there for a year and will work on an F visa for the first six months. Not legal.

That's why I said, "F-visas can be used legitimately but only under limited circumstances and if done correctly. Most don't do it correctly."

Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit; wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad. - B. O'Driscoll.
TIC is knowing that, in China, your fruit salad WILL come with cherry tomatoes AND all slathered in mayo. - old34.

old34

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Re: Business Visa
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2012, 08:16:06 AM »
Good article...and not even representative of the very worst things that could happen to you.
Again...how anyone could come to the conclusion that working without the proper documents could ever  be "copacetic" is beyond my imagination.

The article he posted is, by and large, a civil matter with only a vague reference to legalities at the end.


It turned into a civil matter, if you read the article carefully, because he first applied for arbitration under the terms of his contract and/or the Shanghai Labor Bureaus arbitration rules. His request for arbitration was denied because he didn't have a legit work permit.

This is different from a school where an FEC is required as opposed to an AEP but the FEC has similar arbitration "rights" attached to it.

Only then did he turn to the court making it a civil matter.
Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit; wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad. - B. O'Driscoll.
TIC is knowing that, in China, your fruit salad WILL come with cherry tomatoes AND all slathered in mayo. - old34.

A-Train

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Re: Business Visa
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2012, 08:39:05 AM »
You left out the second part of the paragraph you quoted me on, so here it is again: "The key is a position limited to 6 months or less. Longer than that, and a Z-visa/RP is required."

You've said you are going there for a year and will work on an F visa for the first six months. Not legal.

That's why I said, "F-visas can be used legitimately but only under limited circumstances and if done correctly. Most don't do it correctly."


I'd be a terrible lawyer, but I see the distinction.  So my contract would have to be for six months in order to work legally under a Business visa?  And then convert to the proper visa and a new, 18-month contract?  (Since the contract now is for two years). I had thought you meant that working for six months under a Business visa, even if the full contract was longer, would be legal.
Thanks a lot for the clarification.
"The young do not know enough to be prudent, and therefore attempt the impossible and achieve it, generation after generation.

Pearl S. Buck