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[MK]

Not Here Or There
The Chinese community in Athens is notoriously isolated from the rest of the student body due to cultural differences and language barriers...Chinese students...spend the majority of their time in their rooms....American university events are too centered around binge drinking and bars, which are frowned upon in China...

This lack of integration has been talked about at UK uni's for a while now - I guess US uni's are now also accepting larger numbers of Chinese students than before?

[Fozzwaldus]

interesting. I get the feeling that a LOT of Chinese students are disappointed when they go abroad to study...

sometimes with the quality of the education (especially if they've enrolled in a mickey-mouse 4 years of expensive babysitting sort of college), often with this lack of integration...

[kitano]

When I was at university the Chinese students didn't really mix with us even though we were in the same building as a lot of them, I think they all did International Trade or something

Last year in Holland on my girlfriends course everyone mixed although she didn't make any Dutch friends most of the international students lived in a halls of residence thing and the Chinese weren't isolated, we used to hang out with a couple of Indonesians and a Thai girl, my girlfriend was also friends with an Italian girl. That was a Masters not a degree though so everyone was a bit more mature.

Two more thoughts

Half of the students at my university (in China) also seem to spend most of their time in their rooms, universities do still have a lot of activities and societies and so on for students but should they make a timetable for students?

I think the real problem is that the universities and agents love taking their money and the parents and students love the idea of going abroad and getting a western education but they often don't think about the reality properly, students seem to think that university will be like the bits in films where everyone sits around with a really handsome professor and has interesting conversations all day etc

Oh and also, it's pretty easy to be isolated anywhere in the world, I felt pretty isolated at times when I was at uni in England...

[The Local Dialect]

Lots more students are choosing to go to American universities than in previous years. American universities are also actively recruiting Chinese students.

I work with kids who are going to go to America for school. Most of them are aiming for top tier schools. The isolation is a real concern for them. Most of my kids are actively avoiding schools with high Chinese populations because they really want an American college experience, to mingle with local students and be immersed in the environment. Most of my kids prefer the East Coast (of course the Ivies, if they can get in. A lot apply, a very very few make it) and lots of them choose small liberal arts colleges because they hope for a more intimate environment and not to be just another Chinese kid.

I am not really sure isolated is the right term, because it isn't like these kids are alone in their rooms all the time, they're hanging out with other Chinese students. And to be honest, that's partly their own fault. Sure they are in the international dorms, and if they're unfortunate enough to be stuck in language programs until they get the magic TOEFL score, most of their classmates are going to be other langauge students, mostly Chinese. That sucks for them, but they live in America, they have ample opportunity to practice their English and make American friends. The Chinese kids isolate themselves into Chinese communities because that's easy and comfortable, much like many expats come over here to China and never learn Chinese and hang out only with other foreigners.

I also think most of the kids who go to America aren't really prepared for just how challenging the coursework is. They get overwhelmed fairly easily and a lot of their energy is spent just trying to stay afloat -- especially at the middle tier colleges that accept kids who, to be honest, probably do not really have the ability to handle the classes. Scoring a 80 or so on your TOEFL does really not say much for your English ability when you'll be asked to do things in college like analyze literature and write research papers, properly cite your sources, etc. I used to teach kids like this and their first year was always very rough. Nowadays I teach really elite students and they're going to better colleges and are probably not going to struggle as much as others because they're pretty much geniuses anyhow. I think what Chinese people don't understand is that in America (and elsewhere in the West I assume, but my experience is with America), college is actually hard. Harvard is hard, but so is the University of Michigan or Oberlin. Even community colleges can have challenging coursework, especially for students whose academics or language skills are just not up to par. It isn't like China where you get in and as long as you can stick it out for 4 years and not die playing World of Warcraft for 24 hours straight, you'll make it out with a diploma.

That all said, I've had Chinese students who have gone to the States and who have absolutely and completely embraced college life, going to frat parties, having roomate dramas, drinking themselves stupid, pulling all nighters, the whole deal. They come out of it completely changed and seem to have no regrets. It is all in what they make of it.

[Calach Pfeffer]

Chinese, culturally, require a group in terms of which to orient themselves, and there's not a hope in hell that American university life will ever provide that? There's even actually a quote maybe to that effect:

“I want to study the real university classes more, to live a more formal American college life. I watch the American college students walking around, having meals, I can't feel that life now," says Clara Zhang, who is in her first quarter at OU.

And is this the moment to shrug because there *is* no hope of bridging that gap or just because western culture says it's up to the individual to bridge that gap and I wouldn't even begin to know how to, in effect, change someone's cultural orientation?


And Yvette Zhang in a Snow White costume is having trouble convincing residents to participate in a party? JUST HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE SCARED OF BOOBS?!

[NATO]

From what I can tell my girlfriend got pretty involved in college life in America. She made friends, went parties, hung out etc etc and she doesn't drink even a drop of alcohol. Then again she would just love to watch people when they're pissed up.

I think TLD is on the money, if you go to a foreign country and have no friends outside of your own nationality, then you've probably got to take a long hard look at what you've been doing the whole time. Which is not to discount cultural problems and other difficulties such as hostility from the local students, but really you've got to be the one to reach out sometimes and not just wait for it to come to you.

To an extent I think you just have to dive into the culture, otherwise you just end up letting worries from culture shock prevent you from connecting.

[NATO]

The problem is that it's all nice and easy to say that, but it's a little harder to actually put into practice...

[CaseyOrourke]

I have been reminding my kids that going to school in the US is going to be so different from anything they have experienced before.  I've told them that American professors aren't going to spoon feed them the test, but rather give them the highlights then expect them to dig for the details, form a thesis and then defend that thesis in a term paper using the research material they found.

I gave them a quote given to me by another teacher: "Chinese Universities, hard to enter, easy to finish. American Universities, easy to get into, hard to finish."

I finished my last class today (4-25) and wished them luck. 

My thought will be with Sarah, the class leader, who was accepted by Ohio State, Winnie, the shy quiet girl, who will go to Miami-Oxford (Ohio), Mammon, the devilish class clown, heading to University of Washington, Frank, the 'I don't know kid' going to Syracuse and Daniel, who specified to Boston University that he wanted an American roommate.

In a couple of weeks I expect to be starting a new class of kids who will have hopes and dreams of going to school in the US and I will work to ensure that are as prepared as much as I have tried to get these kids ready.

[dragonsaver]

@ CaseyOrourke

I have a former student and a friend at Miami-Oxford.  She is totally outgoing, into everything, has a part time job and I think on the Dean's list as far as marks go.

I could get her email address for you to give your student if you want.  PM me if you want the contact for your student, or give me her contact name. 

[china-matt]

I have a few Chinese students who often come for help at the writing center. I used to tell them that they needed to find other students to speak with so they could improve their spoken English. Their response was that most other students had no interest in talking with non-native English speakers. Granted this is an urban community college and I sometimes don't understand the American-born students.

Here it isn't just the Chinese students. Most ESL students have a difficult time making friends--the other students don't want to make the effort to understand them. Not sure how it is at major universities anymore (it's been a long time), but plenty of American students here are too impatient.

[CaseyOrourke]

@ CaseyOrourke

I have a former student and a friend at Miami-Oxford.  She is totally outgoing, into everything, has a part time job and I think on the Dean's list as far as marks go.

I could get her email address for you to give your student if you want.  PM me if you want the contact for your student, or give me her contact name. 

I pm'ed you....if you got multiples from me I apologize, my puter can be slow sometimes

[Calach Pfeffer]

*does not suggest a sister website relationship*

It's probably unfair to expect local students to give a damn about international students' concerns, and yet here *we* are...


/too much work

[rattie]

May I move this across The Pond?

I have a part time gig at a private college that sends their students to a 'relationship' uni in Aus. My little crew passed their IELTS exam, of course!

And now after 18 months of doing serious IELTS prep, shooting the shit, gossiping, debating issues in the news and basically communicating effectively for the past 18 months, they are terrified. 50 days until they are carted off to help the Australian economy. They're asking whether they will be able to understand a menu, get a haircut, go to the doctor, catch a bus...remember? All the things we were concerned about when we arrived here, well, I should speak for myself, apologies to those more confident and socially adept than I.

I'm not sure how to prepare these kids for the sometimes horrific experience that expat life can be. Do you recall the day you realised that even the birds sound different in the morning?

I understand 'love' may be a strong word, but I don't have kids of my own, so I will use it. I love these girls, they are confident, smart, tough and socially adept. Simply telling them to use the personal skills they used to make me and my gang friends of theirs isn't enough....I am trying to mentally prepare them for the 'culture shock' stuff.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that many Chinese students think that if their English is good enough they will be ok, they don't understand the emotional hardship of doing everything in an alien culture. Nor do many ESL teachers that go to work abroad.

I will apologise again, this is a bit of a stream of consciescnecse?? (geez that word I can't spell) But don't you think that if you are capable and confident in your own environment you can pull it off it another country? The kid that played WOW 18 hours a day because he couldn't even talk to his dorm mates will not suddenly become a key member of the darts team and social butterfly at the local pub in Wodonga will he?

I reckon a lot of these kids get sent overseas by their parents not because anybody belives the education system is better, I think their families are searching for a place their kid just may fit in?
Just my 2 bobs worth,
Rx

[NATO]

I'm thinking about teaching a lesson on this subject tomorrow and stumbled across these articles:

http://www.chinalawblog.com/2012/01/chinese_students_in_america_why_do_they_even_bother.html

This ine is a discussion focused mainly on the American students' complaints about Chinese students.

A different perspective from a Chinese girl now working in media:

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/12/clash-of-civilizations-the-confusion-of-being-a-chinese-student-in-america/249787/

[NATO]

I also think the idea that 'they' didn't mix with 'us' a double edged sword. It's as much about the foreign students unwillingness to engage with the Chinese as it is the other way around. I know from my uni experience that there were a bunch of Japanese who hung around together, I don't remember any students trying to engage them really.