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May 26, 2013, 02:47:22 AM
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Author Topic: Foreigner doing market research in China for companies (fast food)  (Read 387 times)
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Senor Boogie Woogie
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« on: April 15, 2012, 04:07:02 PM »



Near where I live in Hangzhou, a pretty decent little shopping mall opened with a huge and pretty decent Lianhua supermarket. I have lived in that area for three years, and there aren't really any good markets within walking distance, so I was happy for them to come.

It is a basic Chinese mall with cheapish jewelry, watches, and clothes. I walked towards the back and saw that..... th_ao th_ag th_af a Burger King was coming in. "KICK ASS!" I even did a happy endzone dance to the amusement of the workers building the place.

Hangzhou currently had two other locations, one in the main train station, which is a sort of a pain in the ass for a local to go to and get food and go home, and another in the tourist area of West Lake. There was a third location nearby the West Lake branch, bu it died and turned into Dicos Chicken. I like Dicos. I did not like that a BK branch died suddenly after coming to HZ, but I sort of chalked it up to having an unfamilar franchise in too close of an area. I was happy about my BK because the other two were across town.

I am happy about the BK near me, but I question why they built a BK there. If I was a consultant to whomever wanted to but a branch there, I would strongly not advise it. Why? Because almost no foreigners live in that area and know the brand. The train station gets their business from foreigners and the huge volume of hungry traffic. The West Lake branch is surviving because it is in a tourist zone, with a lot of foreigners nearby plus more sophisticated Chinese passing by. (The West Lake branch is near some very expensive shopping areas).

My BK? In a crappy Chinese shopping mall. Chinese are not familar with the brand and they know what they know, which is McDonalds and KFC. For pizza, it is Pizza Hut. Papa Johns tried Hangzhou and lasted a few years. Basically a Pizza Hut ripoff, although a thin Chicken garlic Papa's was good once a month. I think it came down to what the locals know, and that is Pizza Hut? Why get a crappy gut bomb at Papa's when Pizza hut will do?

The BK is also in the back of the first story of the mall/supermarket, with Lianhua inhabiting the second and third floor. Mostly, for people who go to that BK will be the ones that will make the journey to go there, instead of people going to shop and say "Hey, let's go here." In the Lainhua, one must go to the third floor to get to the second (hate it, but besides) and upon leaving the store pass by a Paris Baugette bread store (which is a good franchise in my opinion) and a sheet meat pork place called Bee Ching. Bee Ching meat is expensive but it is sooooooo damn good. But people have to pass by there on the way out of the supermarket. No one has to pass the BK unless they want to.

It also seems to me that BK has not tweeked their menu to suit the "Chinese tastes". Ironically, there is too much beef on the menu. Chinese are fairly fickle about beef. At McDonalds, only a minority of their food offerings is beef. It is mainly chicken and pork. McDonalds is good at changing their menus for the tastes of the locals Worldwide (in India, they have Lamb instead of beef, in Guam, SPAM is on the menu.)

I admit it. I love KFC, even in China. But what made KFC in China a success story was that KFC really retooled the menu to reflect the tastes of the Chinese, which unfortunatly means that all the good stuff from KFC America is not sold here (cole slaw and buttermilk biscuits is a real head scratcher. Cole Slaw is cabbage. How in the hell can one not like a hot, fluffy buttermilk biscuit?)

Remember Taco Bell's feable attempt in China? I could have told them that it wont work, because the Chinese do not like Tex-Mex Mexican food. I ate at a taco bell in Shanghai. It was a sit down restaurant with a waitress. Ordered the food from a menu. A lot of the American menu was absent.

Subway is doing gangbusters in Hangzhou. The first store opened around (and I am guessing) 2006 or so, and now about 5 years later there are about 10 outlets, owned by different franchise people. As far as I know, only one Subway died, ironically again, in my 'hood. This was a dumbass location. It was in a smallish neighborhood Lianhua store. It was a counter but with no seats or tables. Basically get the sandwich and go home. I knew that location was going to die because shoppers in Lianhua are not going to pay money for that. They are in there to pick up items for home. I once walked to the lonely counter and told the girl that I wanted a six inch sandwich (forgot what, not important) when I was finished with my shopping. 15 minutes later, there is my sandwich, wrapped and everything. Didn't have the heart to tell her that her work was in vain and bought it as the first customer in the history of Subway to have a sandwich made by someone without their knowledge and paying for it. Wasn't bad. Black olives are still too salty.


Subway works because it allows people to sit down and relax (although some locations lack bathrooms, which is a main reason I don't eat there, plus it is expensive, and if I could buy good bread here, I could make what they make at 10% of their cost, which is why Subway is so profitable.) Subway also does well because of their "freshness". I think the Chinese have also bought int the idea that it is healthy, unlike KFC or McDonalds.

There was a Hooters restaurant that lasted about a year here in Hangzhou. This is the first foreign business (and only admittedly)that I announced would die there and it did. The food was expensive, and I do hate to say this, awful. I ate there twice, the first was a burger that was tasteless with greasy curly fries, the second time a few months later, in the neighborhood (the visa office is in that area)and got a cheese steak wit tasteless meat and gloopy ass cheese stuff. With 35 RMB draft Budweisers.

I did not have their famous wings, but chicken is hard to muck up even for a novice cook. Cook til the meat is white, dont burn it, season to taste. The girls were cute and all, and they did make a strong go of it, but this is Hangzhou, not Shanghai. Most of the limited amount of foreigners here will eat there once and not come back, and the place is far to alien for a Chinese person to get. Jeesh, in the summer in Hangzhou, if you want to be served beer in a girl in shorts, there are about a thousand different places to go. Yup, it died. Actually some security guard actually died on their property after hours. Opened up the joint in the morning and there is a dead guy. Sort of cursed the place. They said that they would return four years ago, nevr returned.

Not a fast food place, but I would think that China would have a chain auto parts company, much like Auto Zone back home. I think Auto Zone would do great in China. How many new cars are rolling out in China every month? What about oil change places like Jiffy Lube? Jiffy Lube would do fantastic here. In Hangzhou, I have little idea where to buy parts for my car besides the dealership, which is going to gouge the customers testicles out. A 1000 RMB gas cap at Mercedes could cost him 10 in my shop and cost 2 to make.

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/

I think I could be of some value to a company who wants to start up something in China and myself understanding the eating and shopping patterns of the local people. My only experience is the experience of living here.

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"Shanghai, it smells like fried food and dirty money!"
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KeyserSoze
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« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2012, 07:41:35 PM »

Get in the Zone! Autozone!  th_ah

I have site selection and merchandising experience but finding non-teaching work in China has proved fruitless or the pay is worse than teaching.  th_ah

I imagine you can contact various fast food companies in the U.S.A. directly? Monster.com?

For what it's worth, a Subway costs about 25 RMB here and I don't think I can duplicate it for 3-5 RMB, but that's just me. Then again I'm strongly biased. I love Subway and I won't eat McD's or KFC. Maybe KFC but never McD's. Subway is usually the only other western alternative and it's heaven to me.
 th_ab
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Raoul F. Duke
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« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2012, 08:42:10 PM »

If you have experience as a fast-food or at least retail consultant, you might make it work. Companies with enough clout to take on a China expansion tend to have their own people in the field long before an outlet opens, and tend to work with marketing agencies based in China. The best way to get one of these jobs is to either promote into it from within the foreign franchiser, or to be a Chinese with a marketing degree.

Remember, the key market in China is the Chinese, not us. th_k  Companies want the opinions of the homeys; we're too small a fraction to even show up on the radar.

I'm also pretty dubious about a franchise like Jiffy Lube. The Chinese don't seem to possess the concept of preventive maintenance, and don't tend to "fix" things that are still working. Also, most cities don't yet have the "critical mass" of cars required to support such a business...
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« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2012, 12:23:29 AM »

BK making some inroads. Good to know. I can't stand McD's and we don't have any BKs in my area.

I have seen signs indicating the possibility of a Dairy Queen in the near future.

My BK? In a crappy Chinese shopping mall. Chinese are not familar with the brand and they know what they know, which is McDonalds and KFC. For pizza, it is Pizza Hut. Papa Johns tried Hangzhou and lasted a few years. Basically a Pizza Hut ripoff, although a thin Chicken garlic Papa's was good once a month. I think it came down to what the locals know, and that is Pizza Hut? Why get a crappy gut bomb at Papa's when Pizza hut will do?

Because Papa John's Pizza is manna from heaven compared to what passes for for food at Pizza Scum.  The one in DG is still going after more that 5 years.

I think Papa John's only mistake is not expanding the non-pizza portion of the menu to the level that Pizza Scum has.

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« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2012, 06:20:03 AM »

EL, don't get too excited about the DQ just yet. They are all over the place in Beijing but they really only have ice cream (of course blizzards too) and then some of them have hot dogs. I haven't seen a single one with a full DQ menu.

There are a couple of Burger Kings here and they do quite well, but they are placed in huge malls that have stores like the Gap and H&M, so they attract the "everything foreign is cool and better" types. I love that BQ hasn't changed a whole lot from the menu -- the Whoppers are still Whoppers.

In Hong Kong I noticed there's Wendy's. I wish that franchise would come to the Mainland. I think Taco Bell would do well here too if it was marketed correctly -- it couldn't be some sit down fancy affair, it would have to be real fast food, and they'd probably have to incorporate fried chicken, but KFC sells those wraps and people buy them so I don't think it is impossible. I think the days of fast food restaurants coming to China and masquerading as fine dining are drawing to an end, at least in the Big Cities.

Which reminds me, I saw an actual, honest to goodness, drive-through McDonald's the other day, it was on the way out to Xiang Shan in Beijing. I am pretty sure that's the firstdrive through I've seen, but with all the driving people are doing now I bet it won't be the last.
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« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2012, 07:12:04 AM »

Dongguan is the proud (Huh?) home of what I'm told is the first McD's drive through in the mainland.  It's been here over 5 yeas (I'll have to ask the guy at the local English magazine if anyone wants a more exact date).  I've been spotting DQ mentions on construction fences in the vicinity of that McD's - there's an upscale shopping area that's been slowly opening up next to it.

We definitely need BK and Wendy's just so I can show people that McD's isn't as good as the advertising has brainwashed them into believing.  Too bad Wendy's in the USA has suffered such a drop in quality of food and service since Dave Thomas died.  I used to use it as an example of efficiency with visiting Soviet scientists.  At least it's still got better burgers than McD's.
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« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2012, 12:45:55 PM »

You do sometimes get the impression that these companies don't even have a strategy when they open up shops, some of them seem quite smart but sometimes they just don't seem to put any thought into it

Papa Johns seem to have quite a presence in China now but for some reason they are always really hard to find for me

I haven't been to any of them for ages, the chips (fries) are really horrible in China at all of them I've been in, I wish that you could get proper chips in China....
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Isidnar
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« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2012, 12:56:12 PM »

Thread Bummer Alert!

I didn't eat in these places back home. I'm sure as hell not going to eat in them here.

May they all rot in hell.
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old34
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« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2012, 02:04:23 PM »

Fair dinkum
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latefordinner
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« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2012, 04:10:33 PM »

To be honest, I think I ate at McD's maybe once in the 10 years before I came to China. In the 10 years since, about 200 times. Not exactly every day, but frequently enough. Not because I like it, but because they are ubiquitous and I know that in a pinch I can get something filling with coffee. KFC, Pizza hut? maybe 2 dozen times between them. Subway? That I like! Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of them in DL, and they tend to be a bit expensive. Really only one is convenient for me, and because its downtown (Youhao Lu), its also close to cheap streetfood. I would love to see papa john's or BK in DL.

When I see shops that are badly located, I have to conclude that having the money to open a business isn't the same as having the smarts to run one. AFAIK, the foreign chain places are franchises, and I get the impression that a lot of these franchise chains don't interfere or offer guidance because they are afraid of offending local sensibilities, of stepping on people's toes.
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« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2012, 02:03:02 AM »

Thread Bummer Alert!
I didn't eat in these places back home. I'm sure as hell not going to eat in them here.

May they all rot in hell.

Since the summer of 2004, I've eaten a McD's burger exactly two times.  However, sometimes a good slice of pizza is something that I need no matter what country I'm in.
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Senor Boogie Woogie
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« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2012, 06:39:37 AM »

Thread Bummer Alert!
I didn't eat in these places back home. I'm sure as hell not going to eat in them here.

May they all rot in hell.

Since the summer of 2004, I've eaten a McD's burger exactly two times.  However, sometimes a good slice of pizza is something that I need no matter what country I'm in.


Pizza Hut in China is a mystery to me. The food is just not good and is expensive for what it is. The last time I ate a Pizza Hut pizza, a friend bought some one night while we were drinking and watching the first season of NFL on computer (his roommate bought the NFL package online)

The last time I paid money for Pizza lut, I mean Hut was in 2009 because it was Chinese New Years, I was in a hotel, and there were very limited places to get food. So in the past three years I have eaten Pizza Hut twice, and once I did not pay for it.

Funny thing, I am convinced that for Chinese to like "western food" it has to be expensive and mediocre. This pretty much goes for all western restaurants, either local or international. 95% of the time, it tastes like ass.

I always have thought that Subway was a joke, and to me is too expensive for what it is. If there was any such thing as good bread in China, I could make the sandwich myself, and it would be much better. I also rarely frequent Subway because several of the locations lack bathrooms which I think is a disgrace. I went to one in Hangzhou, ordered a sandwich and then wandered towards the back to find what should be the bathroom, to be told by the Canadian/Chinese owner that there was none (I think this is a routine she has to go through a lot). I had to urinate badly and grilled her on why in the hell is she too cheap to have a proper bathroom for the customers and where do the workers go? I ate my sandwich and then had to go outside and pee on the side of the building like some hobo.

People have asked in the past, "Do you like Chinese food?" Basically I say that for the most part I do not (I do like/love some things, but not much). Mostly the food is greasy and frankly weird. The problem with Chinese culture as someone noted is so collectivist that everyone likes the same garbage and are apprehensive to try anything else. Chinese are also such finicky childish bastards about food for the most part "I's too sweet" "It's too salty." "Chinese people, all trillion of us, don't like this." I brought up KFC in my original post. Most all the good food that KFC does make in the USA, they do not make here.

I also agree that McDonalds is crap here, more crappy than even back home. Alluding to weird is that their fried pies are these nasty flavors like mango and green pea. Apple? "it's too sweet."

Lastly, I think someone mentioned Dairy Queen. There is a Dairy Queen in Hangzhou, and I dont think I have ever bought anything there. For one thing, it is basically an ice cream shop. Ice cream shops are a major ripoff. There really isn't any food there. But since the place is a mediocre ripoff, the Chinese love it.

This is why I think I would be good at a marketing position in China. I know Chinese like expensive garbage. Good and inexpensive will fail here. People dont like beef, cheese, or sweet things. They also hate cold drinks, even in the hotass summer months.
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« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2012, 06:58:08 AM »

I'll agree with about 95% of what S. B. Woogie says.  I think Pizza Slug's success isn't the pizza.  Get a look at the menu.  Pizza almost seems like an afterthought.  They've got plenty of very Chinese-looking rice dishes and a lot of other things that would seem very strange for any Pizza place in the west to offer.

There's a Hagen Daz shop in the same complex where I've been seeing Dairy Queen signs.  That's going to make DQ the cheap ice cream shop.
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« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2012, 08:29:21 AM »

S.B.Woogie, you speak the truth.
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« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2012, 09:54:29 AM »

Don't get me started on the Hagen Daz shops here. The prices are insane, and yet the place is always packed. It seems sort of like a "date" place. They have one in the big movie theater here and the thing to do seems to be to treat your sweetheart to some ice cream before the movie starts. Their ice cream cakes are very nice, but again, so ridiculously expensive.

Speaking of ice cream shops, there's at least one Cold Stone Creamery here in Beijing (in fact, same place where one of the Burger Kings is located). It is also extremely expensive, but the ice cream is good. It does not seem to do as good business as Hagen Daaz, but it also isn't in a prime location either, it is sort of hidden away in the big expensive shopping mall. We had Cold Stone back home, in fact my high school boyfriend used to work at one.

I feel like Beijing has a lot of Western food that is above mediocre, but Beijing also has a large enough foreign (and overseas returnee Chinese) population that these places do not necessarily have to cater to Chinese tastes. There are a couple of place that I go to where the vast majority of the patrons are foreigners, without fail. I also never went to McD's or ordered Pizza Hut that much ... until I had kids. My kids, as with kids the world over, love that stuff, so we probably do a trip to McD's two or three times a month.
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