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[jpd01]

I think that is a conversation best had upstairs

[live-long-and-prosper]

The biggest Chinese recruitment site I know of is zhaopin.com. 

My previous employer (a software company) was hiring recent graduates/interns with salaries around 2000-2500/month in Shanghai to work on software testing/development projects. Not sure that's helpful or not.

We had not tried zhaopin before, we just posted some positions and I will let everyone know how it goes!

Yes, 2000-2500 for recent grad in 1st tier city I would still consider reasonable.  I would expect the salary to be lower, 1,500 - 2,000, for a 3rd and 4th tier city because of lower cost of living, and these numbers seem to still work for us to some extent.

However, in my conversations with the professional recruiter, they claimed that to hire an experienced manager, the salary would basically need to be the same for a 1st tier or 3rd tier city.  I guess I can see this if you need to convince someone to move from Shanghai to the countryside.  However, I am wondering if its possible to draw on management talent in say, Changsha, for a position 2 hours outside of Changsha at wages that would not be the sky high Shanghai level.  The numbers the professional recruiter is throwing around is 100-300k per year minimum. Mind you, they are paid based on a percentage of the recruit's salary!

[live-long-and-prosper]

I was reading just today some overall stats on entrepreneurship.  It seems China holds the record for world's lowest level of venture capital investment in new business, but also holds the world record for highest levels of informal investment in new business.  The interpretation is China significantly lacks strong institutional support for VC activity, but--obviously--has many opportunities for business itself.  My own spin on this is entrepreneurs are tapping friends and family and maybe some shadow banking modes and, it seems to me likely, are necessarily constrained by those relationships.

"The shadow banking system" - yes, this certainly exists and I suspect it is very large. I often wonder what these folks driving all these luxury cars and lounging around in the afternoon in a coffee shop do to keep income coming in. The certainly don't work.  For some at least, the monthly income is earned as interest in informal loans.  I don't have any direct personal experience with this, but I know it is happening.  We have a heck of a time with bad debt in our business, I wonder what these folks do to manage collections?  They certainly don't look like the type to go around breaking knee caps?  I wonder how they manage to get their friends to pay?  Anyone have any experience?

[live-long-and-prosper]

I was also reading a while back that Chinese white collar workers have come to expect (and receive) earlier raises and faster promotion.  And they're not particularly loyal.  They move from company to company seeking, and getting, position and salary.  

One career path I witnessed went something like: graduation -> foreign trade rep for a small company (Chinese)-> personal assistant to foreign manager of foreign invested firm in China -> management role in a different foreign invested firm in China -> promotion to US office -> let go when expectations didn't match so moved to Asia region management role in a related company... all in the space of about five years off the back of supposedly graduating as a teacher.

Lack of loyalty is a huge issue.  Ideally, we would invest and train, but it makes it hard when people are so anxious to jump ship.  It human nature to be ambitious, but what makes China really unique right now is the total lack of fear of failure.

I grew up watching jobs move out of my town, I saw stagnation or decline as the norm.  The young generation in China has seen nothing but growth, in fact unprecedented growth.  So my take is that they have no fear.  They will quit a job if they get a whim and have no fear about how to support their two year old child.  Sure enough, two weeks later they have landed a new job at a 30% wage increase.  Same goes for this crazy real estate bubble, people have no clue... no fear.  I have been sitting on the sidelines saying this is not good, someone is going to get burned.  Meanwhile, folks who have no idea of the risks are taking every penny they have, building an apartment building and making 10x on their investment in 18 months.  Ironically, the folks who bought the apartments did so for investment so the whole building remains a concrete shell.  But the developer still earns 10x on his money.  Meanwhile, I am the one who looks like an idiot for sitting on the sidelines.  But as they say, business is nothing but risk vs reward.   These folks just don't seem to realize the risks, as it does not seem a rational person would be willing to take them.

[live-long-and-prosper]

6 months of gruesome interviews turned not a single Chinese employee that could work and think outside the box. Not one!! They either lied on their CV, expected a higher salary than mine, had no clue about design/architecture etc... I interviewed literally 100s of local applicants and trust me, I wasn't that picky.

Eventually, I gave up and started looking at local expat hires and even bringing in overseas talent. It's costing us a lot more but in the long run, a worthwhile investment because these guys stick around longer and are professionals.

We have the same exact experience.  We interview almost everyday and its rare to find anyone that stands out.  It does seem like the modern education system in China is producing a very limited graduate.

Anyone that is any good, seems not to want to work for a company, but rather start their own business.  If we hire and train a young talent, its not three years and they are our competitor. 

"Local expat hires" - how did you find them?  Communities such as this?  We have not gone down this route, but I would consider it.  Anyone else have experiences they can share on finding and hiring westerners on a local package.  How about those working on a local package, what can an employer do to be more attractive?

[live-long-and-prosper]

Without a seriously connected or savy Chinese business partner to help smooth things out then it can be an ordeal that has brought down many competent business plans.
But the problem is finding one that is interested. Usually most will have enough on their plate that risking what they have to get into a serious long term business with a foreigner isn't really worth the exposure.

I don't think it is possible to have a Chinese business "partner".  What I mean by this is that it's never really a partnership.  It's a always two separate businesses.  In my experience, and I have done several high profile JV's in China, the partnership only works if the foreigner plays the role they are "supposed" to play.  And that is bringing in sales or technology to China.  If you are lucky and there is enough margin in your business, then this partnership can go on for a long time and appear to be working.  However, if the margin ever dries up, then the partnership will collapse.

So the partnership thing is a not really a long term option in my experience.  You are never a partner, you are a tool.   

Now being a partner through marriage is a different story, but one that is equally complicated.

Most serious business have come to realize that the only way to do business in China is through a wholly owned company.  But yes, running a wholly owned in China is hugely difficult, hence this long thread!

[Calach Pfeffer]

However, in my conversations with the professional recruiter, they claimed that to hire an experienced manager, the salary would basically need to be the same for a 1st tier or 3rd tier city.  I guess I can see this if you need to convince someone to move from Shanghai to the countryside.  However, I am wondering if its possible to draw on management talent in say, Changsha, for a position 2 hours outside of Changsha at wages that would not be the sky high Shanghai level.  The numbers the professional recruiter is throwing around is 100-300k per year minimum. Mind you, they are paid based on a percentage of the recruit's salary!

From a sample size of one, in Shanghai region:

Tertiary teacher (first year out of school): 3000/month + accommodation
"Foreign Trader" (glorified secretary with English skills): 3-4,500/month
Personal Assistant: 7000/month
Line Manager/troubleshooter: 10-12,000/month starter.

Last I heard she was making 31,000 a month as a procurement manager--five years after graduation.



Without really knowing, I think it'd probably be pretty hard to convince someone to go to the countryside to be a manager.  Just from seeing the tail end of a lot of students, it seems to me that anyone who has (and knows they have) a sought-after ability uses it to get up and out, fairly fast.

CAVEAT LECTOR: I KNOW VERY, VERY LITTLE OF WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.

[Calach Pfeffer]

Arguably, the thing the new, young professional classes go for, aside from the red hot stacks of Maos, is training.  It's one of the dumb but possibly true things that keeps appearing in mock job interviews--

A: "Why do you want to join our company?"
B: "To improve myself"

So, how do you keep your staff?  Answer: you don't.  You make training an important part of the job itself, and reference it mightily in the job advertisement.  Expect to keep them for a year, maybe two, and train them up knowing they'll leave.  And when it is time for them to jump ship, give them a nice reference AND ASK THEM TO REFER SOMEONE TO YOU!   Ask them to introduce someone to take their place.  (And that's actually the form of expression in English that they'll know and understand.)  You don't have to accept who they suggest, but it's the start of your very own actual guanxi net.  Over the years you can keep tapping former employees for recommendations.  And in due course you'll find someone moderately competent who doesn't want to leave.  They'll probably have family in the area, and you'll be stuck with them.

Presumably not a good business strategy, but I thought of it in the shower, so there you go.


The other thing that occurred to me is, 3000 or lower is drone salary.  Students seem to know it as the level below which nothing much is required of them.  They don't expect those jobs to be much other than (white collar) grunt work.  This is my perception.  It may not be true.

[The Local Dialect]

If you want to hire foreigners you need to be able to offer an attractive enough salary so that you can compete with schools. There are a lot of people out there who want to "get out of teaching" and who have skills that are possibly useful, but people will get disillusioned very quickly working 40 hour weeks and making less than they could be teaching English and doing half the amount of work. People basically won't do non-teaching jobs, or won't stick with them anyhow, for anything less than about 15k rmb a month in the big cities. In a city like Changsha you could probably get away with paying less but you still won't find foreigners willing to do a "real" job for less than 10k I imagine.

Keep in mind that these are still "local hire" salaries. Expat package folks would turn their noses up at something like that but people who are trying to transition out of teaching are willing to work for much less in order to build their resume.

[Ryguy]

Would you stay at a job paying 3000rmb if you could go to a job paying 5000rmb?

[xwarrior]

Would you stay at a job paying 3000rmb if you could go to a job paying 5000rmb?

Possibly.

A few years ago, when I was on a salary of 5000, I was offered a job for 10,000.

The contract called for 20hrs teaching + 20 hrs office. I checked the place out and the foreign teachers there said they spent a lot of their time thinking of ways to fill in the hours before it was time to go home.

I turned the job down - I could not see myself sitting in an office, day after day, without being bored out of my brain.

[The Local Dialect]

Would you stay at a job paying 3000rmb if you could go to a job paying 5000rmb?

Possibly.

A few years ago, when I was on a salary of 5000, I was offered a job for 10,000.

The contract called for 20hrs teaching + 20 hrs office. I checked the place out and the foreign teachers there said they spent a lot of their time thinking of ways to fill in the hours before it was time to go home.

I turned the job down - I could not see myself sitting in an office, day after day, without being bored out of my brain.

Well yes, but the posts were referring to Chinese employees, not foreign teachers. Most Chinese workers will take the higher salary no matter what. If you have to sit around in the office bored for 20 of your 40 hours a week, well, that's better than the alternative, which is doing actual work. Chinese workers almost never have the luxury of 15 hour work weeks with the rest of the time free. Even teachers typically have to put in office hours. Being able to choose lower pay in return for more free time is a huge luxury.

[xwarrior]

Sorry! I thought Ryguy was commenting on your post:

"If you want to hire foreigners you need to be able to offer an attractive enough salary so that you can compete with schools. There are a lot of people out there who want to "get out of teaching" and .............. people who are trying to transition out of teaching are willing to work for much less in order to build their resume."

[jpd01]

Getting foreigners the necessary working papers can be a little complicated. Plus the authorities tend to like you to hire locals and train them for the betterment of the nation.
So they will have a huge preference for you to hire the local lads over expats and may actively block your attempts to secure employment for a foreign employee.
That being said I agree that you can't really get away with paying a foreign employee a local wage. Even if a multinational is offering a local wage job they will find it difficult to fill the position. I remember Raoul once stating that he turned down a job with ford in Chongqing because the best they would offer was a local wage.
Plus if you want a long term employee that will stay in China and with your company then you are looking for a long term expat. Most of those are married and have responsibilities, probably even kids and a local wage is just not going to be a real option for them to take even if they really would like to.
Personally I don't think I could take an offer below 10,000 a month with a morgage and other financial responsibilities and I don't have any kids yet.

[The Local Dialect]

Sorry! I thought Ryguy was commenting on your post:

"If you want to hire foreigners you need to be able to offer an attractive enough salary so that you can compete with schools. There are a lot of people out there who want to "get out of teaching" and .............. people who are trying to transition out of teaching are willing to work for much less in order to build their resume."

Yeah I thought so too at first but then I realized he was commenting on CP's post about 3000 being a drone salary. They were discussing how Chinese employees have very very little concept of loyalty to an employer. In the West we might not necessarily jump ship on a good job just because another employer came along offering a slightly higher salary. In fact, we probably aren't even looking for jobs when we're happily employed. Chinese people are almost always looking to trade up on their current job. I read an article about this phenomenon several years ago -- there's a word for it in Chinese, 跳槽 (tiao cao) and some of the ads you'll see on TV for the major job sites play to this idea that it is absolutely ok to just jump from job to job (have you seen the one that goes, tiao tiao tiao? and of course zhaopin or whatever helps him "jump jump jump"). Chinese employers usually don't invest time in training people or bother giving good benefits because people just up and leave -- I remember working for a foreign owned dotcom startup and the owner tried really really hard to build a sense of company loyalty and to make the new Chinese young hires interested in staying on but still lots of them left.

When I mentioned foreigners being willing to work for less I meant less as in 10k rather than 15k and up. I haven't met a foreigner yet willing to do a "real" job for less than 10k rmb a month, because, aside from the fact that if you want real professionals you need to pay them a professional salary, for less than that you really might as well be teaching.

jpd you're absolutely right about foreign hires. It isn't easy to get the paperwork to hire them and in fact lots of companies are worse than schools when it comes to having their foreigners work on improper visas. I know plenty of companies who have had their foreigners technically listed as "consultants" or who had them come in and out of the country on a string of L and F visas.