News

Mini User Center

 
Advanced search

148593 Posts in 8100 Topics- by 953 Members - Latest Member: wakethenight

May 23, 2013, 10:32:54 PM
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4
Print
Author Topic: Running a business in China  (Read 2348 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
fullricebowl
Barfly

*
Gender: Female
Posts: 332



« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2011, 04:26:38 AM »

The biggest Chinese recruitment site I know of is zhaopin.com.

There are definitely campus recruitment activities all over China- although the large international companies seem to focus on the top 10 schools in China. My husband (who is Chinese) received several offers from domestic and foreign companies after attending such events at his university.

My previous employer (a software company) was hiring recent graduates/interns with salaries around 2000-2500/month in Shanghai to work on software testing/development projects. Not sure that's helpful or not.
Logged
Calach Pfeffer
Barfly

*
Gender: Male
Posts: 2834



« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2011, 04:56:42 AM »

In my industry, the enterprises are most certainly small.  Most of the time they are family affairs.  No doubt this limits their size.  As to why they are family affairs, I will go out on a limb and say that it is not because of "weak belief in impersonal institutions", but rather just that most enterprises are still first generation and big corporations take time to get large.  Also, the men and women running China's small factories right now are all about the same age.  They are typically in their 50's and 60's.  They were managers when China privatized the state owned enterprises.  They were in the right time and the right place as managers to inherent these businesses for a small investment.  This generation was not well educated.  They almost exclusively don't speak English.  They were often of a farming background.  So I think they just don't have the skills to grow from a operation they can micro manage to a larger modern corporation.

th_bf Nice picture.  It's really interesting to hear actual descriptions of what's going on and how it came to be.

Somewhat related, I was reading just today some overall stats on entrepreneurship.  It seems China holds the record for world's lowest level of venture capital investment in new business, but also holds the world record for highest levels of informal investment in new business.  The interpretation is China significantly lacks strong institutional support for VC activity, but--obviously--has many opportunities for business itself.  My own spin on this is entrepreneurs are tapping friends and family and maybe some shadow banking modes and, it seems to me likely, are necessarily constrained by those relationships.

Maybe it doesn't work that way, I don't know.  I'm literally just guessing.  But it's an interest I have, the question of where innovation and novel opportunity comes from here.

Quote
However, in my industry, there is now a strong push by the local government to form larger "groups" of small enterprises.  From what I can see the main push is to try to eliminate some of the hyper competitiveness between so many small factories and thus try to shift some of the margin available in the global supply chain away from other distributors and back to the China "group".  

Another thing I was reading recently is how the Chinese business environment may be ripe for consolidation and how this'll create new multinationals.  The example given was air conditioning.  There's some large number--in the hundreds--of different, small air conditioner manufacturers.  The article was saying though that it'd be international competitive forces that would initiate mergers, acquisitions, failures... maybe too "free market" a viewpoint.

Quote
I observe several things. 1.) Shear mathematical chance.  With so many people competing for limited positions at the top of the business chain, its obvious that the ones who are running businesses are "exceptional" in many ways.  2.) As I mentioned above, in my industry the factory owners all come from almost the same background, and theirs was a hard earned life.  Unlike myself, they actually know how to grow food and field dress a hog.  So I get the feeling they hold the ultimate upper hand in negotiations... The true ability to just walk away from it all if needed. I have come to this point many times in negotiations, and I have always lost.  I think the reason is I was never really ready to walk away from it all.  I don't know how to survive with-out a modern support structure.  These guys are not afraid of hardship.  

Will they hang on for some time to come?  University students, the presumed leaders of tomorrow, are still at least a little farm-bred, but they're maybe a lot softer than the thugs merchants of today...?

Quote
What about the colleges?  Are there opportunities to interview fresh graduates right at the university?  This is how I got my first job out of college, the companies came right onto campus and we interviewed.   It seems this would be a good approach.  For the teachers out there, are the good colleges already doing this?  Are the better students highly sought after by big international firms and thus not accessible by smaller local firms?  Are starting salaries for top university gads still reasonable?

Here in non-Changsha Hunan, at a large not-quite-university (is officially a college, not a university, and doesn't offer any post-grad degrees/diplomas), there's a once-yearly job fair thing.  It happens over a weekend (but I forget when) and companies come to the school.  I think it's mostly small Chinese companies offering low-end clerking type positions.  Maybe some "foreign trade" positions, which I think mostly means being the English voice on email for some factory.  Starting salaries rarely top 3000 a month.

I was also reading a while back that Chinese white collar workers have come to expect (and receive) earlier raises and faster promotion.  And they're not particularly loyal.  They move from company to company seeking, and getting, position and salary.  

One career path I witnessed went something like: graduation -> foreign trade rep for a small company (Chinese)-> personal assistant to foreign manager of foreign invested firm in China -> management role in a different foreign invested firm in China -> promotion to US office -> let go when expectations didn't match so moved to Asia region management role in a related company... all in the space of about five years off the back of supposedly graduating as a teacher.
Logged

Boy Meets Grr
(updated daily)
Nolefan
Lord of Avalon
Benevolent Despot

*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 1967


八九不离十


WWW
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2011, 06:01:22 AM »

Interesting opinions on here folks.. keep it going!

In the IT industry, we're not much better off than manufacturing despite the apparent availability of employees. Let me explain:

I was tasked with shutting down all overseas IT development for our company and move it to our Beijing HQ which sounded like an easy task.. not really!
6 months of gruesome interviews turned not a single Chinese employee that could work and think outside the box. Not one!! They either lied on their CV, expected a higher salary than mine, had no clue about design/architecture etc... I interviewed literally 100s of local applicants and trust me, I wasn't that picky.

Eventually, I gave up and started looking at local expat hires and even bringing in overseas talent. It's costing us a lot more but in the long run, a worthwhile investment because these guys stick around longer and are professionals.
Logged

alors régressons fatalement, eternellement. Des débutants, avec la peur comme exutoire à l'ignorance et Alzheimer en prof d'histoire de nos enfances!
- Random food, music and geek tales from the 'Jing: http://beijingdaze.com
El Macho
Barfly

*
Gender: Male
Posts: 786


东北人都是活雷锋!


« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2011, 06:09:54 AM »

Interesting to read about the experiences the rest of you have had. My wife and I are in the initial stages of starting to import a health product to sell…our shipment of test products arrived today and we are quite happy. At this point, I'm glad to not have to be on the manufacturing side of things, as I believe I lack the patience to do well in it.

My father-in-law just missed getting in on starting a company (didn't have a high enough position when all the privatisation started), but on the last trip back he took us around to see his friends' factories. I'm seriously considering staking him to start his own…but I would be entirely hands-off in running it!
Logged

See how much English teachers in China and anonymously add your own pay information.
jpd01
Barfly

*
Gender: Male
Posts: 494



« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2011, 08:58:21 AM »

Doing business in China can be a seriously infuriating ordeal.
I'm only thankful that I've never had to do it alone. My wife's family has some serious connections and it has taken out most of the pain of doing business here.
Without a seriously connected or savy Chinese business partner to help smooth things out then it can be an ordeal that has brought down many competent business plans.
But the problem is finding one that is interested. Usually most will have enough on their plate that risking what they have to get into a serious long term business with a foreigner isn't really worth the exposure.
So then it leaves the young and the hungry, a good option if it's all you have. However establishing a network that is reliable is expensive and exhausting.
As for finding competent staff..... wow that's a hard one. I've never hired one that I didn't know, usually I get them through friends or recommendations. Unfortunately even that doesn't work sometimes, imagine what happens when a recommendation comes down from your uncle in law for some idiot nephew of a friend that is both incompetent and expects a high salary with lots of benefits. THAT'S a hard one to get out of.
I've run into a lot of foreign companies and individuals that have chosen the wrong partner. The kind that will try to steal your clients from you, the kind that will hide revenue from their partner, the kind that will steal your ideas and set up another operation on the cheap, and ruin you because they are selling really cheap Chinese versions of your products.
I once ran into a partner company for a very respected and international Australian brand product that tried to steal all of our clients and cut us out completely, the Australian company had very little idea of who they were working with (aside from a few near meaningless checks on their finances etc) and as such the product has had a lot of difficulty here in China. It's a dangerous game to say the least  th_bi th_bi
Having a network is critical, without one you will always be on the outside looking in. Getting one is the difficult part. And without a dead on Chinese partner you can trust then I would say close to impossible.
All of our business comes from this social network, without it there would be nothing.

The fact is that most smaller to medium sized businesses are in some way cleaning houses. They don't WANT to get bigger, being bigger means more attention and more scrutiny. If you look at most medium sized business they are in fact made up of a number of smaller businesses. What will look like departments are in fact smaller businesses. Each that post it's own profit and loss.
The idea that there is a casual investment strategy is pretty much bang on. Often it's family and other times it's other businesses within that group that put the cash in. Sometimes it's other companies that you have relationships with in a "you do it for me I'll do it for you" type of arrangement.
Add in creative ways to turn a profit into a loss like reporting all dividends and money that goes to investors as losses and there is on paper a real need to keep the business at the level that it is. Because most of theses companies will on paper report a loss each year there is no massive push by authorities to force these companies to expand and increase their responsibility.
Cleaning money that comes from other grey and black means is the name of the game and to avoid as much tax as possible.
The fact that it doesn't seem to concern factories that they are not working and will only take the largest orders they can get their hands on is quite common. When they get a huge order it's easier to blur the lines from the genuine income to the streams or other income that are coming in.

When the state enterprises were privatized it was done in such a way that whoever ran the thing afterwards was extremely well connected. What would happen as I understand it was that the plan to privatize was known well in advance (say a year or two before it would happen) and the manager would deliberately run the place into the ground. Make it unprofitable on paper and simply a disaster for anyone looking to buy it. Then the local official's mate would come in and scoop the whole thing up for cents on the dollar. Thus leaving it open for any type of investment or funneling it pleased.

As for labor, it's still pretty damned cheap. But for specialized or experienced personnel...well they are very hard to find and not cheap at all.
Take my wife as an example. Education in the UK, six years working experience overseas, three here running her own business plus consulting work etc  At the moment she works 2 or 3 days a week for another company (another small appendage business of another business) running it. She makes more than 8,000rmb a month just working those few days a week. The reason is simple, there are precious few others that could do it. Her boss (longtime friend of the family) wants someone that can run, maintain and train staff in a westernized business practice. Bigger still he wanted someone he could trust and that is the rarest commodity of all.
Our city is a second tier city and there are at most only a handful of staff that could do what she does and she knows it. So she charged him an arm and a leg for it as well as some other arrangements for our business etc etc
Even so when she was interested in looking for a job last year she received a large number of offers in first tier cities for 15,000rmb+ a month and we were considering moving but then decided to concentrate on the business and make a real go of it.
So finding someone skilled AND able to work outside the box is extremely rare as the education here tends to kill most of their braincells well before they enter the job market.
What I've seen some of the German companies do is take non college graduates and put a lot of effort into training them. It works ok but is pretty labour intensive and time consuming so probably only viable for a very large company with a good structure.
Logged

"I don't understand what I did wrong except live a life that everyone is jealous of." Charlie Sheen.
Calach Pfeffer
Barfly

*
Gender: Male
Posts: 2834



« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2011, 12:24:06 PM »

What I've seen some of the German companies do is take non college graduates and put a lot of effort into training them. It works ok but is pretty labour intensive and time consuming so probably only viable for a very large company with a good structure.

Speaking of future business opportunities... ^^^ being the trainer.  Or selling the course.  Heeelllloo, anyone who wants to hire me (a few years from now).


That aside, damn, jpd... bleak picture.  But still... manageable?  Does business ever get big?  (An academic question again, I guess. Smiley)
Logged

Boy Meets Grr
(updated daily)
jpd01
Barfly

*
Gender: Male
Posts: 494



« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2011, 05:24:45 PM »

Yeah big is a rather academic question. Plus there is big and then there is China big.
If you think about the actual money that is being earned then it's a case of how big is your imagination (for the Chinese) Like I said most of this is done to avoid tax and other nefarious reasons so you can imagine just how much is going into their pockets.

Haha I didn't actually think it was a bleak picture, just the reality of the situation. Maybe I have just gotten used to it. Some things are just critical here, if you are looking to do business then you have to be careful as it is like the wild wild east out here.

On a side note, makes you wonder how many sausage factories are actually just laundromat services  th_af
Logged

"I don't understand what I did wrong except live a life that everyone is jealous of." Charlie Sheen.
xwarrior
Barfly

*
Gender: Male
Posts: 1943



« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2011, 11:14:00 PM »

Quote
Like I said most of this is done to avoid tax

A very successful Chinese businessman told me that, 'it is easy to get rich in China if you know how to avoid paying tax.'
Logged

I have my standards. They may be low, but I have them.
- Bette Midler
Calach Pfeffer
Barfly

*
Gender: Male
Posts: 2834



« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2011, 03:51:47 AM »

I guess I meaning something that is--well, maybe not at all explained by using the word "big".

Maybe "functional" or "trustworthy"?  As in, get a good idea, open a business, survive on the basis of the merit of the idea... that doesn't happen unless the good idea is vaguely or possibly even completely criminal?



Meh.  I'm not a businessman, I guess.
Logged

Boy Meets Grr
(updated daily)
jpd01
Barfly

*
Gender: Male
Posts: 494



« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2011, 06:32:18 AM »

Well in the context of a foreign operation I've seen a few take off. But big, no. Medium, no.
Small businesses owned by foreigners (or with a Chinese partner) are practical and manageable ie small store, eatery etc
But breaking into something a little more complex than these types of businesses is difficult and I would say as an individual not possible.
Besides there is legislation that prevents certain types of businesses to be wholey foreign owned and when there aren't roadblocks will be thrown up all over the place.
The first business that my wife and I owned was a retail outlet in a new mall selling imported latex mattresses. It was pretty successful probably in part because people knew that is was a genuine foreign operation because I was at the store 3 days a week (everyone else was selling fake brands and faux imported goods made in China) We had a business partner who had a housewife that needed something to do. It was fine because the guy himself was a solid business man and convinced us that his wife would be very hands off and not try to change anything or meddle in the running of the store. He basically just wanted something for his wife to do and get her out of his hair.
The store was going pretty well, pulling in about 60,000rmb a month in profits for around 6 months and we were all happy with how things were going.
But after 6 months the housewife got bored and started meddling, we came to work one day and she had fired all 4 of our staff without telling anyone. She replaced them with one idiot relative and two workers that were much cheaper, and had no experience and were basically just food bags.
The retail outlets were having a tiff with management about the fees and rental on the space and basically had all banded together to force the management to lower the fees. It was going well until the housewife basically pushed her face into it and then pissed off the management. So they agreed to lower everyone's fee besides ours and raised our price.
We had developed some relationships with other retailers in the centers that ran a different range of products and gave each other steady referrals. The housewife decided that we were giving too many referrals and not getting enough back so refused to do any more.
At this stage we decided enough was enough and asked our partner to buy us out. He agreed to a very nice amount (partially as an apology and partially because the business was still turning a decent profit) long story short the housewife ran the shop into the ground after about 3 months and the store closed.
After that we used other connections we had and had gained from the store to open up another location and start another business, one which we still run and is doing well.
Basically it's just another example of how a bad Chinese partner can ruin a perfectly good business. The partner couldn't reign in the housewife and she proceeded to tear down everything that had been set up. Why? maybe because she was bored, maybe because she was ignorant, maybe because she simply was so sure it was all easy to do. Could be any number of reasons or all at once.


 
Logged

"I don't understand what I did wrong except live a life that everyone is jealous of." Charlie Sheen.
Escaped Lunatic
Global Moderator

*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 6603


Finding new ways to conquer the world


« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2011, 07:23:27 AM »

I've seen the opposite side of this coin.

I know quite a few bright, hardworking Chinese people who can't find anything above a McJob here in lovely Dongguan (city motto: We make all the junk you buy at Walmart).

I've also seen the cutthroat competition for contracts to supply items for western companies.  The amounts of bribes (paid to the Chinese employees in charge of who gets the contracts) add up to a significant percentage of the contract price.

I think the best option is to let the factories think that you don't need them so they'll have to work hard to get and keep your business.  It's like dating.  If you think the other site might not be interested and is looking at other options for Friday night, then you've got to work harder.  If you know the other side is interested and only wants you, then you'll make them work harder to get that date.
Logged

I'm pro-cloning and we vote!
Pashley
Barfly

*
Gender: Male
Posts: 1604



WWW
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2011, 07:39:44 AM »

In the IT industry, we're not much better off than manufacturing despite the apparent availability of employees. Let me explain:

... not a single Chinese employee that could work and think outside the box. Not one!! They either lied on their CV, expected a higher salary than mine, had no clue about design/architecture etc... I interviewed literally 100s of local applicants and trust me, I wasn't that picky.

That often happens overseas too.

I was once the "technical guy" in a team interviewing people for a job that required expert C programmers. Most could not answer what I thought were fairly basic questions. When I tested for knowledge of C folklore, not one had a clue what Duff''s Device was.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duff%27s_device

A friend got to interview people for a post that advertised for experienced Unix system administrators, basically someone to take that load off him so he could concentrate on development. His first three screening questions were taken straight from "basic questions" section of the Unix FAQ.
http://fisica.ehu.es/ref/unixfaq.html

He went through 20-odd candidates before finding one that got two out of three, and hiring him. Most got zero.
Logged

Who put a stop payment on my reality check?
Calach Pfeffer
Barfly

*
Gender: Male
Posts: 2834



« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2011, 11:01:20 AM »

A curious question that occurred to me: does Socialism play any actual role in business in China?
Logged

Boy Meets Grr
(updated daily)
xwarrior
Barfly

*
Gender: Male
Posts: 1943



« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2011, 02:01:12 PM »

A curious question that occurred to me: does Socialism play any actual role in business in China?

Business in China is the true expression of Socialialism. If you doubt me just refer to :

Quote
中华人民共和国宪法修正案(附:《中华人民共和国宪法〔1999年修正本〕》) The Amendment to the Constitution of the People's Republic of China (Appended with 1999 amended version of the Constitution of the People's Republic of China)

(Adopted at the Second Session of the Ninth National People's Congress on March 15, 1999, promulgated for implementation by the Proclamation of the Ninth National People's Congress on March 15, 1999)
颁布日期:19990315  实施日期:19990315  颁布单位:全国人民代表大会

  Article 12 The seventh paragraph of the Preamble of the Constitution, which reads, "Both the victory in China's New-Democratic Revolution and the successes in its socialist cause have been achieved by the Chinese people of all nationalities, under the leadership of the Communist Party of China and the guidance of Marxism and Leninism and Mao Zedong Thought, by upholding truth, correcting errors and surmounting numerous difficulties and hardships. Our country is in the primary stage of socialism. The basic task .0.before the nation is the concentration of efforts of socialist modernization construction in accordance with the theory of building socialism with Chinese characteristics. Under the leadership of the Communist Party of China and the guidance of Marxism-Leninism and Mao Zedong Thought, the Chinese people of all nationalities will continue to adhere to the people's democratic dictatorship and the socialist road and to uphold reform and opening to the outside world, steadily improve socialist institutions, develop socialist democracy, improve the socialist legal system, and work hard and self-reliantly to modernize the country's industry, agriculture, national defense and science and technology step by step to build China into a strong, prosperous culturally advances, democratic socialist nation." is revised as follows: "Both the victory in China's New-Democratic Revolution and the successes in its socialist cause have been achieved by the Chinese people of all nationalities, under the leadership of the Communist Party of China and the guidance of Marxism and Leninism and Mao Zedong Thought, by upholding truth, correcting errors and surmounting numerous difficulties and hardships. Our country will be in the primary stage of socialism over a long period of time. The basic task before the nation is the concentration of efforts of socialist modernization construction along the road of building socialism with Chinese characteristics. Under the leadership of the Communist Party of China and the guidance of Marxism-Leninism, Mao Zedong Thought and Deng Xiaoping Theory, the Chinese people of all nationalities will continue to adhere to the people's democratic dictatorship and the socialist road and to uphold reform and opening to the outside world, steadily improve socialist institutions, develop socialist market economy, develop socialist democracy, improve the socialist legal system, and work hard and self-reliantly to modernize the country's industry, agriculture, national defense and science and technology step by step to build China into a strong, prosperous culturally advances, democratic socialist nation."

Article 16 Article 11 of the Constitution, which reads, "The individual economy of urban and rural working people, operating within the limits prescribed by law, is a complement to the socialist public economy. The state protects the lawful rights and interests of the individual economy." "The state guides, assists and supervises the individual economy by administrative control." "The state permits the private sector of the economy to exist and develop within the limits prescribed by law. The private sector of the economy is a complement to the socialist public economy. The state protects the lawful rights and interests of the private sector of the economy, and exercises guidance, supervision and control over the private sector of the economy." is revised as follows: " The non-public economies such as the individual economy and the private sector of the economy, operating within the limits prescribed by law, are important components of the socialist market economy." "The state protects the lawful rights and interests of the individual economy and the private sector of the economy. The state exercises guidance, supervision and control over the individual economy and the private sector of the economy."

 th_m

There you go! I think that any country that sees "democratic dictatorship" as a valid form of government will have no problem with the term "socialist capitalism."
 th_ag





 
Logged

I have my standards. They may be low, but I have them.
- Bette Midler
Calach Pfeffer
Barfly

*
Gender: Male
Posts: 2834



« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2011, 03:07:52 PM »

Well yeah, "socialism with Chinese characteristics" is a punchline of some kind, but I wonder why.  After all, there's lots of socialist and semi-socialist systems around the world.  Is the ridicule with which Chinese socialism... I even find it difficult typing "Chinese socialism" as a serious phrase... is this ridicule the product of really, really bad PR or... what?  The system is so very full of lies that the actually overtly stated formal institutions governing the country... don't?  Then what does?

I don't know.  Things seem to stick together with some kind of glue, but what glue?  (I hope no one says "guanxi" because that's just as opaque an explanation as, um, any other really opaque thing.  I also think "guanxi" as it used to be known has probably changed in some way.)
Logged

Boy Meets Grr
(updated daily)
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4
Print
 
Jump to: