Oral English is the Least Important Class?!

Of course I've known all along that Oral English is considered not a real academic subject in public unis, but recently in the run up to the TEM4 exam the students went into a general slump in regard to their level of spirit, and I finally criticized one of my classes for basically sucking abysmally (though I didn't use either of those words). Ah, I told them that if all my classes were like theirs I'd give up teaching, and that they were making me depressed [it's true. I'd throw in the towel if even a 3rd of my classes were so lackluster]. Later I found out another teacher (Chinese) had given the same group a similar lecture the morning of the same day. When I asked one of the best students what the problem was, after class, she explained that the TEM4 was all important, and without meaning to be disrespectful at all, indicated my class was less important than the obligatory phys ed class. I shouldn't take it personally, that student for one was putting in at least 3-4 hours a day in preparation for the all important exam, and was wiped out.

So, for a few weeks now I've been thinking about why Oral English is considered such an insignificant piece of fluff, and what can be done about it constructively, because, in the real world being able to speak English may be a lot more useful (certainly in opening up the outside world to them) than, say, analyzing English grammar in Chinese.

These are the sorts of reasons I've come up with for why Oral English isn't taken seriously:

1. There isn't an equivalent subject in Chinese. By that I mean when studying Chinese they'll focus on literature or composition… but being able to speak is just a given and doesn't need to be taught, hence it isn't academic, and hence not serious. If there isn't a thick book and rigorous exams, it isn't real.

2. They don't know how to teach Oral English. My guess is they do a lot of the "grammar translation" method and other outmoded approaches. I imagine most Chinese teachers wouldn't have any reason to know how to teach English "as a foreign language" and thus don't realize it's a special skill one needs to get training to do properly, or even know how to go about it at all (it ain't just showing movies and talking about oneself). As a consequence they think it's all just games and singing songs and bullshit-on-a-cone.

3. Chinese teachers appear to have told the students that their classes are the "most important" ones. This may be defensive, because the students will usually like the foreign teacher's classes the best, in my experience. They may also believe theirs are the most important as that will generally make them feel pleasantly inflated for the moment they are uttering it.

4. Foreign teachers come and go and use whatever methods they choose and lots of us probably ARE crap.


I'm planning on deprogramming the students about their priorities – certainly Oral English is far more important to English majors than is the sports meeting – and am working on subtle ways of doing it besides just trying to make my class as interesting and engaging as I can. I'm looking at counter arguments. These are some things I'm thinking of telling them.

1. Their government thinks Oral English is so important that they invite foreigners to come teach it and pay for our flights.

2. It's the only class with a native English speaker.

3. I make custom lessons for them addressing their actual problems speaking.

4. Speaking will be the most important skill for them in the future in any case where there are English speakers involved: international business, tourism, being an interpreter, traveling or moving abroad, making foreign friends…

5. I only give them about a half hour of homework (things like dialogues or formulating an opinion on a topic) so they should go ahead and do it well so they can succeed in my class and improve their oral English. Instead they spend countless hours on their other English classes and exam preparation because they believe those must come first. I want to subvert it by saying to let the easiest one come first, because they CAN accomplish it and see progress that's actually useful (in fact they will shine in the class if they devote themselves more than half-assed).

6. They only have Oral English for 2 years, and only 2 hours a week, for a grand total of 128 hours, which is less than the total hours in a week. Some of them achieve basic fluency in that time, while others don't and if they don't now, when they have a dedicated foreign teacher, when will they?

Wondering if any of you have tactics you can share to counter the prevailing notion that Oral English is just fluff. The way I see it now is that students such as mine, in a 3rd tier city (may be inflating its status a bit there), are lucky to have good foreign Oral English teachers, and yet some of them miss the opportunity to capitalize on this, or even benefit from it at all, because they've fallen for the erroneous idea that speaking English isn't as important as talking about it in Chinese.

it's harder to grade oral english, you can't have right or wrong scores, only a score based on the examiners opinion
 
to be perfectly honest, I think a lot of these students don't need oral English at all. A lot of them probably already have their future mapped out by their parents long before they go to uni and it probably doesn't involve speaking english

a lot of students don't want to learn anything, this is true in the UK also but in china it's double true imo.

Allow me to compliment you for a great post. Your students should feel fortunate to have you as a teacher.
Only one additional thing comes to mind, namely I have remonstrated with students in the past that language relates to communication. If someone studies a foreign language without learning to speak effectively, then the effort has been wasted. It's an abomination.

I think kitano nailed it. Most of these students won't go on to international business, or become interpreters for visiting dignitaries, especially students going to school in a 3rd tier city. The vast majority of them won't need oral English at all, ever, in their future lives after college. A small percentage of them may need it occasionally when, say, a foreign client visits from overseas (but they'll be able to scrape by just fine on what they learned in college regardless of whether they did well in Oral English or not) or if they decide to persue graduate studies abroad (at which point they'll have to start from scratch with some serious prep courses anyhow), but most of them will work in Chinese companies, will rarely come into contact with foreigners, certainly won't have any foreign friends, and will never ever travel, much less live abroad. That's just the plain facts of life for most Chinese people and since you're teaching what seems to be your average Chinese class it is fair to assume their futures will be pretty average.

I think most Chinese students already have a vague notion that "English is important for my future" but to them that usually means being able list the results of certain important English exams on a resume, not actually being able to speak the language. I honestly don't think English really is that important for the ordinary student's ordinary aims. A lot of money and time in China is spent on chasing an English pipe dream and I'm not really all that convinced that, besides the fact that the pipe dream keeps most of us employed, it is really all that productive for all these students to be focusing on fluent oral English rather than some other thing that they might be better at. And yes, English is important for some people, but those people tend to know who they are. Maybe your students are just being realistic?

As for taking your class seriously, I would just use good old grades. They can't graduate if they fail your class, right? So fail them. No doubt they'll come grovelling to you and the school will make noises about having to give them a retest or some such, but word will get around that your class is important and that you take the grading of it seriously, regardless of whether or not English itself is actually important to them.

it's harder to grade oral english, you can't have right or wrong scores, only a score based on the examiners opinion
 
to be perfectly honest, I think a lot of these students don't need oral English at all. A lot of them probably already have their future mapped out by their parents long before they go to uni and it probably doesn't involve speaking english

a lot of students don't want to learn anything, this is true in the UK also but in china it's double true imo.

There are probably some of those. I always figure I can motivate them anyway, because my class isn't going to be like their other classes because it can't be. Nevertheless for the first time I have a couple English majors who are failing my class. Boys. I gather they're failing ALL their English classes because they had to answer a couple short essay questions about stuff we'd discussed or debated in class, and their writing was the pits.

But usually the situation doesn't seem that dire. Usually classes are pretty good and I can leave them feeling cheerful (until recently with the monstrosity of the TEM4).

I've been thinking about that same thing you mentioned about their lives being mapped out for them, and maybe some have guanxi and don't think they need to learn anything. Well, the world keeps changing fast, and there are always surprises that upset the easy, well laid out plan. In my own lifetime we've gone from computers being Sci-Fi and just making bleeps and spitting out ambiguous messages on receipts to everyone being hooked on the internet.

I never planned on speaking Chinese having any importance in my life at all, and here I am practicing most every day (and still sucking!). So, those students shouldn't count on the cement cities and world of KTV and bai-jiu and cigarettes and mahjong their daddy's enjoy being there for them in the same way and context f_____g 20-30 years from now. There aren't even enough Chinese girls to go around, for one thing.

Most of these students won't go on to international business, or become interpreters for visiting dignitaries, especially students going to school in a 3rd tier city.

I also seriously doubt they'd have their own international businesses, but they may work for someone elses' (one of my friends here did), and while they wouldn't be interpreters for "visiting dignitaries"   they could work in the tourist industry (a student from my university happened to be a tour guide on a bus I took to the Terracotta Warriors). There sure need to be more English speaking staff in train stations, bus stations, hotels and restaurants, to judge from my traveling experiences in China.

The vast majority of them won't need oral English at all, ever, in their future lives after college.

I don't see it that way. Most my students are English majors, and as such might go into a field in which they need to speak English, even if it's just working in a training school or a public school where there are foreigners. If they become English teachers – and I think that's the best job available to most of them – they'll need to speak, and the more they've learned from their foreign teacher (assuming he/she is any good) the better.

A small percentage of them may need it occasionally when, say, a foreign client visits from overseas (but they'll be able to scrape by just fine on what they learned in college regardless of whether they did well in Oral English or not) or if they decide to persue graduate studies abroad (at which point they'll have to start from scratch with some serious prep courses anyhow), but most of them will work in Chinese companies, will rarely come into contact with foreigners, certainly won't have any foreign friends, and will never ever travel, much less live abroad. That's just the plain facts of life for most Chinese people and since you're teaching what seems to be your average Chinese class it is fair to assume their futures will be pretty average.

The picture you paint is a bit gray, even Kafkaesque, though admittedly so is what I see when I look out the window. If the world stays exactly as it is that may well be their futures, but many are perfectly capable of having foreign friends, working in international companies… and only finances limit them from traveling or living/working abroad. The world may change dramatically for them. When I look around at all the new cement buildings and mega-highways I think it's strange that they are building solidly for a future that is already an anachronism. Who knows what role technology, global warming, and untold other variables will have, what doors they will open and by what means? It seems likely there will be more leisure time in the future, and more opportunities both to travel and to communicate with people from other countries via the internet and other technology.

As the world changes I'm guessing the ability to speak English may be the difference between being sequestered in a China of the past and reaching out to the rest of the world via the international language. At very least students with solid speaking/listening skills can more readily partake of foreign culture and expand their horizons through watching movies, TV…

A lot of money and time in China is spent on chasing an English pipe dream and I'm not really all that convinced that, besides the fact that the pipe dream keeps most of us employed, it is really all that productive for all these students to be focusing on fluent oral English rather than some other thing that they might be better at. And yes, English is important for some people, but those people tend to know who they are. Maybe your students are just being realistic?

I think China has made a wise choice there. How expensive is it really? My students spend 2 hours a week for two years working on their Oral English. Any less would be a joke. They are university students, and cultural/global awareness seems entirely relevant to a fundamental university education that isn't just learning a trade.

Most my students are pretty good, and the recent slump has everything to do with countless hours devoted to the insurmountable TEM4 exam, and the enormous amount of homework they have in their other English classes. I have a class for non-English majors that's bursting at the seems, so I gather there are lots of students who want more Oral English [a student told me this optional class filled up within hours of if becoming available]. Are the "realistic" ones the ones who are just too lazy to do much of anything (English majors who can't write or spell, for that matter)?

I'm not sure the problem is the students themselves at all, but rather the circumstances in which they're in while taking my class. They are bombarded with homework and exam prep from elsewhere and burnt out from it, and perhaps other teachers are telling that their classes are the important ones.

As for taking your class seriously, I would just use good old grades. They can't graduate if they fail your class, right? So fail them. No doubt they'll come grovelling to you and the school will make noises about having to give them a retest or some such, but word will get around that your class is important and that you take the grading of it seriously, regardless of whether or not English itself is actually important to them.

Probably a good idea. There are only two failing, and just by enough that if they do some extra credit they can pass. If they don't do it, yeah, I'll fail them for sure.

It is also true that for them right at the time of the TEM4, or indeed the CET4 for non-English majors that is in truth the most important thing in their world - Not just for the "credential" they get for passing it - but because passing it is something they have to do in order to graduate - or get a good job when they do graduate. The TEM4/CET4 both do not involve speaking so especially at that point in time they are more focused on other things - and their other English teachers are very much focused on getting them throuh that specific exam, rather than the actual subject they are teaching so to the students it would appear that the other Engish subjects are "more" relevant. And at that point in time - and in the lead up to it - they really are. It is also true that the most likely future use that many of them will have for English is actually not speaking but rather reading.  I think it is also probably true that their Chinese English teachers are all probably not confident in their spoken English - and so do not use it as much themselves in the classroom as they would like to.

I didn't really intend it to be Kafkaesque, BD. I mean, Chinese people have perfectly happy lives without knowing how to speak English (let's hope so anyhow, my husband is a non-English speaker!). I hope I didn't imply that their lives were bad when I said that they were ordinary or average, I just meant that for your average Zhou, foreign friends and foreign travel are just not part of the equation. For most Chinese people, especially people living in 3rd or 4th tier cities, fluency in English is not something that will necessarily make them more or less successful professionally or personally. Even English majors do not really need to speak English fluently, as teacheraus correctly points out. In the world of Chinese English teaching Oral English fluency is de-emphasized in favor of skills like reading comprehension, grammar nit-picking, and having a huge vocabulary. I know lots of Chinese English teachers who can't really speak English well but they do succeed at preparing their students for the various exams -- the Zhong Kao, Gao Kao, the TEM4/8, the CET. Passing these tests is where the English journey ends for many (most?) Chinese students.

Also, I think oral English (or Oral Spanish or oral Chinese or any foreign language) only really becomes a priority for any learner once he has to use it on a daily basis. That's why so many universities back home encourage students to do a year abroad. Chinese students have more immediate concerns than Oral English so those Oral English takes the backseat. I know when I was learning Chinese back home in college I concentrated more on reading and writing than I did on speaking too because it was less hassle to practice writing characters or reading a newspaper than it was to go find someone to speak Chinese with me. Some of it this just naturally what happens when you're learning a second language in your home country.

The TEM4/CET4 both do not involve speaking

That's not true. The TEM4 does have a speaking component. It just happens one month after the written part, any my students are really worried about it.

I actually agree with Ben-Dan that these kids will be required to speak more and more english then say their parents, or even their teachers do. I mean, unless you have some big fancy family connections, then your major determines your career. So our English major students will become likely one of two things: English Teacher or Translator.

Sure, they don;t have to do a good job, but for the majority of students (my students at least) they will be required to speak English on a pretty regular basis.

Oral English does get a bad rap in the school system, for all the reasons everyone has stated. (And I'd like to point one more out...oral English? i mean, really, couldn't they pick a better word? I have to tell my friends back home I teach 'speaking class' because if I mention 'oral' I get all sorts of rude jokes that go on and on and on....)

Ben-Dan, your initial post was THE SHIT! Buddy, you've nailed it. I've had this time and time again. Through my school I'm doing a stint at another uni. The guys love my class, they have fun and for the most part, they're pretty good.

Buuuuuuu  -  uuuuuuut

Its a non scored class. So what if someone misses it or does poorly. Right now most are preoccupied with the TEM-4. I've also told them they could ask me questions about it if they wish to. So far, just basic pronunciation problems

What I've done in the past is subtly mentioned that I teach IELTS and GRE and if anyone is interested, ask for my number. I always get a kid or two who really wants to learn and some extra coin.

"Wondering if any of you have tactics you can share to counter the prevailing notion that Oral English is just fluff."

As for your question, remember when we were in school and had to take bird courses? I took astronomy. It was just one step above lawn bowling

Quote from: teacheraus on May 02, 2011, 01:25:59 AM

The TEM4/CET4 both do not involve speaking

That's not true. The TEM4 does have a speaking component. It just happens one month after the written part, any my students are really worried about it.

Sorry. Your "That's not true" @ teacheraus is just not true.

There is no speaking component (yet) to the TEM 4. The CET 6 does have one IF you register a high enough score on the regular CET 6. I'm sure if you ask those of your students who are worried about their upcoming spoken test that it's a CET test and not a TEM test. (Some English majors DO register to also take the CET tests.)

And there's a lot of good stuff on here about the overall importance of Spoken/Oral English classes, all of which I agree with.

But the Administrators don't usually see it (beyond: we're required to offer it), the students usually CAN'T see it (focused on tests as they are), and the Chinese teachers, in the pits responsible for trying to deliver good TEM test scores for the classes for whom they are responsible

I teach sophomore year (2 semesters) English Majors and the TEM 4 always falls in the middle of my second semester. This IS one of the biggest tests they have to take. This IS very important to both (1) their immediate future - i.e continuing on in their major; and (2) passing one of the speed bumps that the Chinese educationalists place in their path.

So what I do on day one of the second semester (the semester in which they will take the TEM 4) is tell them ONE reason why my Spoken/Oral English class is useful to them in this, the darkest evening of their college years.

CONSOLIDATION.

Although it's called Spoken English, it's the only class which consolidates the 4 skills they study separately in Chinese teachers' classes. They're forced to read, respond, argue - grammatically by-the-way, and converse and communicate, all the while listening to the dulcimer tones of my voice.

OK, I exaggerate. But only slightly. I've tried the appeals to their future and the importance of English as an International language, and the "In the future, you will have to be able to .... ).

And the only thing that they seem to buy into, and they do if you go through the painstaking process of laying it all out for them, is that there IS a benefit to a Spoken English class as a chance to CONSOLIDATE the 4 skills. Right now and as the TEM 4 is approaching.

While I do agree with most of the points I can't really agree with the  idea that students, even English majors will absoulutely need to speak English outside of school in any significant way.
Just because someone studies English as their major doesn't mean they are solely bound for a job in a language school or translator or tour guide.
A majority of graduated English majors I know go on to office jobs or other such generic positions where the most they would need to do is read an email in English from time to time.
Last year I had three private students that were former English majors and wanted to regain the skills they had almost COMPLETElY lost during the two or three years out of school.
The reason they wanted to take private classes? simply because they had gotten jobs the required no English skills whatsoever and they felt sad that they had wasted 4 years of study and now had no skills at all.
An English major is probably like getting a bachelor of Arts back home, no one really needs the skills of an artist but you can still get a half way decent job just by the fact that you have aquired a degree of some sort, not an awesome job mind you but a decent one.

While I do agree with most of the points I can't really agree with the  idea that students, even English majors will absoulutely need to speak English outside of school in any significant way.

Right. Agreed. They won't ABSOLUTELY need them. They might, and they should, given that it's their major in university, but they definitely won't absolutely need them, and might not need them at all.

Last year I had three private students that were former English majors and wanted to regain the skills they had almost COMPLETElY lost during the two or three years out of school.
The reason they wanted to take private classes? simply because they had gotten jobs the required no English skills whatsoever and they felt sad that they had wasted 4 years of study and now had no skills at all.

Ah, then they discover that even if they don't need the skills to get their paychecks, they want them and are willing to pay for them. Some are very enthusiastic about learning English, learning about Western culture, and escaping the narrow confines of their own cultural upbringing.

Generally speaking, I think speaking English is very useful for all of them as living human beings in the 21st century because it opens up the rest of the world to them. Often in our "Oral English" classes (I also have the same problem with "oral" as Borkya does) they learn not only some speaking skills, but also learn about other cultures, are encouraged to express their own opinions, be creative, use humor, cooperate, and other capacities that seem well outside the rest of their curriculum.

So, again, I realize the value of what I'm trying to teach them, and I think they are pretty well receptive to it, but in light of the TEM4 and perspectives imposed on them seemingly from Chinese English teachers, they end up deciding to sideline Oral English in favor of everything else, including sports meetings. I have a vested interest in improving their fluency, so I'm trying to undermine the faulty programming that's convincing them against their own best interests, and even what they actually want, that the speaking classes don't mean squat, and I'm trying to find more tactics to do so. So far I'm liking TLD's notion of just playing as tough as my Chinese counterparts and failing the slackers (though I'll give them some extra credit assignments they can do to get them over the hump).

I didn't really intend it to be Kafkaesque, BD. I mean, Chinese people have perfectly happy lives without knowing how to speak English (let's hope so anyhow, my husband is a non-English speaker!).

Yeah, obviously you couldn't have meant it literally. But, the thing about them never having vacations or foreign friends or ever having a reason or excuse to speak English seemed a bit dire. My point is that it looks that way if things stay as they are, but they won't. Everything will change in ways we can't imagine, and being able to speak English and access the rest of the world may become quite an unexpected asset in the future.

your average Zhou

I know lots of Chinese English teachers who can't really speak English well but they do succeed at preparing their students for the various exams -- the Zhong Kao, Gao Kao, the TEM4/8, the CET. Passing these tests is where the English journey ends for many (most?) Chinese students.

Right, and doesn't that strike you as a bit of a tragedy? What is the point of passing exams, going over English grammar with a fine-toothed comb in Chinese, and getting passing marks on reports one downloaded from the internet if one can't actually communicate with the language? The tests are bunk if you can pass them and still can't use the language. It's like getting your black belt in Karate but not being able to fight your way out of a paper bag.

Also, I think oral English (or Oral Spanish or oral Chinese or any foreign language) only really becomes a priority for any learner once he has to use it on a daily basis.

Right. Speaking English only matters when one has to use it as a language and not just study it as a subject. This is becoming more clear. I can imagine studying Chinese, learning all the characters, being able to draw them, being able to map out the grammar, translating literary passages, learning about the various dynasties, and all that difficult academic stuff, but not being able to tell the taxi driver I want to go to the train station.

I know when I was learning Chinese back home in college I concentrated more on reading and writing than I did on speaking too because it was less hassle to practice writing characters or reading a newspaper than it was to go find someone to speak Chinese with me.

True with me as well. I taught myself to read and write Thai language, which was more convenient to do in America than learn to speak well, but when I moved to Thailand I found I rarely needed to read anything and NEVER needed to write. I learned that I should have put all my effort into speaking. But that's if one is going to use the language in life and not just study about it as a subject like Latin or HTML.

The de-emphasis on speaking and communicating with people in English is like being a swimming major and prioritizing exercise classes; studies of anatomy and kinestheology; nutrition; the history and biography of swimmers… and firmly believing that actually getting in the water and propelling oneself from point A to point B was basically irrelevant.

I don't think swimming is that important, but I think learning the international language and exposing oneself to other cultures and the rest of the world is – but I'm an American living in China so that just reflects on my own priorities and values.