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[Ryguy]

I don't think I can wait until I'm 24. Perhaps there is another way into the country.

[JShep]

If you need a BA to teach in China, then you better be making some bills. Representin' for all tha Geez. Make your bills, hahaha.

[jpd01]

I got plenty of offers when I first started looking in Australia and I had no experience teaching in a school, I did have some private IELTS prep students but not through a school.
Offers didn't seem to care about prior experience and the two year thing seems to be a "wish list" kind of thing.
As for fake degrees I'm not too keen on this idea really, when I went to pick up my experts cert they were just getting ready to print it off and my FAO was having a chat with the worker at her desk. I could see that my details were on the screen and I could see some mention of my degrees in a piece of software that looked like it had my academic record on it.
Actually I'm not too sure if it was just recording the details I gave to them or actually checking them as I only had a quick look.
BUT I know that they DO have a system to verify if your details are real or dodgy but I'm not too sure how often they actually check it (probably depending in how bad they want to duck out for a couple of beers I suppose )
I know there are places where you can order you can go and get a phoney degree from a fake University but I find these places pretty funny, when you go to the site it has all sorts of stupid shit all over the homepage like "buy your degree now!!" "Instant degrees for you" etc.  

I haven't heard of having to be 24 or over before, I have noticed a lot of jobs list they want someone over 25 before though.
If you REALLY want to get into the country bad and can't wait, then maybe consider some Chinese study through a University for a year. Fees are not so high 6,000rmb if I can recall (which is pretty misty memory on my part) and it gets you into the country with a year student visa.

[The Local Dialect]

If you REALLY want to get into the country bad and can't wait, then maybe consider some Chinese study through a University for a year. Fees are not so high 6,000rmb if I can recall (which is pretty misty memory on my part) and it gets you into the country with a year student visa.

Good point. In fact, Ryguy, if you're a student in the USA why don't you consider studying abroad in China for a year or a semester? You can likely find a program is affiliated through your university so that you can get credits towards your degree back home (depending on your major). I first came to China with SIT, which my university back home recognized and gave me credit for. It was MUCH more fun than I ever had teaching. The program was based on experiential learning which meant that our classes would be out in the field -- one day we visited a Chinese drug "rehab" center (really a prison), one day we visited a mosque, one time an orphanage. We traveled all over Yunnan and had homestays with local families and intensive language courses when we weren't in the field. The tuition was roughly the same as what I'd pay back home and included airfare and room and board and I was also able to apply my normal uni financial aid to the cost, which I wouldn't have been able to do if I'd gone on my own. You should definitely check out your school's study abroad office and see whether or not you might be able to swing a year in China as part of your studies before you drop out to come here.

[Raoul F. Duke]

AMonk, I stayed in China for nearly 7 years before I left for the first time. Never had a problem, never even heard of a requirement to leave. Pretty much everyone I ever knew there seemed to have the same experience. I dunno...maybe it's only locally enforced; maybe it's only enforced if they just want to. But I really wouldn't worry about it...

As for buying a diploma, I can't endorse it. It's dishonest, and the penalties if you do get caught could be catastrophic.
I do know people who have done it successfully, and in some cases they have proven to be excellent and hard-working teachers.
But we've all seen China getting stricter about the foreign teachers in their country...and when the changes have come, they've come in full force and with no warning.

Having a degree doesn't make you a good teacher any more than not having a degree makes you a bad teacher. But getting a degree does give you higher-level exposure to teaching, and it does make you legal to teach in China.
I'm all for being legal while in China.
And I'm all for teachers having a good formal education themselves.

The 2 years of employment rule...could go either way. I'm with JPD...I think enforcement here is spotty. My advice is to apply anyway, be upfront about the lack of experience, and see if the local FAO will work with you. Being upfront is good because you don't want to travel to China and THEN find out you can't get a Permit.
The rule may be problematic to new graduates, but for those a little older it gets easier. The laws seem vague on WHAT KIND of employment it has to be...babysitting, mowing lawns, hosing out coffee urns at Tim Horton's, or turning tricks on Santa Monica Boulevard can all be counted as "employment".

Oh, and please don't hijack topics in this area. Starting a new topic is reeeaaaalll easy.

[teacheraus]

on the 2 year experience thing - I know that the province I am in Heilongjiang (Harbin)- did tighten up on this just this year - So without any sort of work experience (paid or unpaid) (before or after graduation) I think that you would have a hard time getting the invitation letter so you can get about applying for the visa. That is the point at which a couple of our new teachers hit some problems. The University was actually knocked back the first time for a couple of them - not on age but "experience". They did get through the second time after rewriting (at the Universities request) their CV to highlight (make clear) their experience so that it was clearly more than 2 years. (For them it was not all post graduation or paid work and they did not add anything that was not true but some sort of work experience beyond study was essential to getting to first base in terms of the visa). This was the first time our university had come up against this issue - and I had heard in confirmed by other people around this area since then.  I think that several provinces including ours did tighten up on some of requirements around April/May last year.

[AMonk]

AMonk, I stayed in China for nearly 7 years before I left for the first time. Never had a problem, never even heard of a requirement to leave. Pretty much everyone I ever knew there seemed to have the same experience. I dunno...maybe it's only locally enforced; maybe it's only enforced if they just want to. But I really wouldn't worry about it...

Not to argue, Jefe, but I was taking the "4-year maximum" info from DeCurso's experience (as reported last year in another Thread).  I was figuring that some Schools, in some places are tightening up and complying with extant Rules, which have previously been "overlooked"...as is usual...

[The Local Dialect]

Oh, and please don't hijack topics in this area. Starting a new topic is reeeaaaalll easy.

Sorry 'bout that, got a bit carried away. I guess my point, to drag it back on topic, is that I think a young person who is in college dropping out of school to come to China is a bad idea. There are some degreeless folks who come over here later in life who have to make do with what they have but if you're 20 and only a year or two away from your degree, just finish it. You will have SO many more jobs available to you as someone with a degree. Teachers without degrees usually have to stick to bottom of the barrel jobs and I think this is becoming more and more true. If you're still in school and want to come to China there are other options for making that happen.

On the age thing I can say for sure that it is in place in Beijing and Shanghai. Two of our teachers got dinged on age and ultimately we couldn't get their paperwork (my school would have let them stay if they could have come up with their own visas but they couldn't/wouldn't pull strings to get them legal). Another teacher I know in Shanghai also got rejected from a school because they said she was too young to get proper paperwork. YMMV and some schools might not adhere as strictly to the rules, but the rules do seem to be there.

As for experience, my mother was asked to provide a certified letter from her current employer (in the States) stating that she's been with them for 5 years for the school she's signed on to work for here in Beijing. My good friend who just moved up to Beijing to work in a non-teaching job (so the visa would be from the labor bureau) is being asked to provide evidence of 2 years post-diploma experience, plus, that experience must have taken place in her home country. Again they are asking for letters from employers, not just relying on a C.V. that can be doctored.

These regulations won't be enforced at all schools all the time but it it is good to be aware of them. I agree with Raoul that it is best to address any possible problems up front because otherwise you could waste a lot of time and money and still find yourself without a job or a visa. If you don't have a degree, ask them if that is a problem rather than hoping they won't notice, same with experience.

[Raoul F. Duke]

Nice stuff, TLD.

AMonk, no problem, love. Just be sure to point out the difference between the "rule" and the "exceptions".

[Ryguy]

The BA, is that a general term for bachelors degree? I don't actually have to get a bachelors of arts do I? Is a bachelor of business equilivent?

[Raoul F. Duke]

I think that was perhaps a misunderstanding. ANY Bachelors degree should be fine.

[Con ate dog]

Ah, the murkiness of it all.  Think of China as one of those contour maps that show altitudes.  The highest ring surrounds Beijing, the most regulated and enforced part of the country.  Locales get less anal retentive the farther you get from BJ; larger cities generally have tighter rules than smaller.

To make it more complicated, laws change from province to province.  Jiangsu (at least Suzhou) allows you to arrive on a tourist visa and then switch to an F or Z, while I'm told Shanghai and Hangzhou won't.

A full-on bachelor's degree?  I know of people teaching on lesser post-secondary diplomas from three and two year programs, who got their full documents.  And I know of some folks who don't have any degree, but have their CELTA, and their documents are solid.

Not nebulous enough yet?  Many provinces have a clause waiving the post-secondary requirement entirely for people over 30.

Another dodge, as someone already suggested, is to sign up as a foreign student, study Chinese in your mornings, and teach privately in the afternoons and evenings.  That is currently all the rage here in Suzhou.

So what will work for you, and where?  You can't really trust the schools to which you apply- the demand for foreign teachers is so high that they could well either out and out lie to you, or genuinely believe that they have the juice to get around the local reg's and deliver you fully legit documents (and they often can).

Your best bet is always to get the word of another foreigner on the ground, one who's a) not working for the company in question, and b) been there for long enough to know what's what.

Glad I could clear up China for everybody. 

[Raoul F. Duke]

I agree with a lot; not everything. This does at least well make the point that things can be WILDLY inconsistent from place to place and time to time...

Some of Los Locales far from Beijing can be pretty retentive, too.

To make it more complicated, laws change from province to province.  Jiangsu (at least Suzhou) allows you to arrive on a tourist visa and then switch to an F or Z, while I'm told Shanghai and Hangzhou won't.

This shows the changes over time. As of about 2 years ago Suzhou would NOT normally upgrade visas; you had to go to Shanghai or Zhejiang Province to do it. Go figure...

IMHO the best authority on these matters should be the FAO of the school you're applying to. At least in theory, they should know what's currently possible for their school in their location, better than even the most experienced foreigner.
Sadly, a lot of these FAOs are complete idiots...especially if they're very new in the job.

What it really comes down to for these matters is: Trust No One.