What's wrong with this, anyway?

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mlaeux

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Re: What's wrong with this, anyway?
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2010, 02:25:40 AM »
I too believe it is a fundamental right that every American can exercise if they choose to. I personally don't own a gun. My dad actually taught my sister and I how to shoot a riffle when we were still in elementary school. If you hand me a loaded riffle, I can shoot it and probably hit my target (if it isn't moving or too far away) but I have no idea how to maintain said firearm.

I know there are a lot of people that don't agree with the whole "right to bear arms" thing, but it really is a big deal here. Actually, its part of our culture, you know that whole hunting and fishing sportsman culture thing. Its a huge industry representing millions, if not billions of dollars in annual revenue.

Right now, there is a survivalist movement going on here. I think this whole "right to bear arms" is at the core of it.

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Damballah

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Re: What's wrong with this, anyway?
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2010, 02:52:20 AM »
Ah.. the 'culture' argument. 

Are there things in cultures that should be removed from them for the safety of others?

The 'rule of thumb'?  FGM (Clitoridectomy/Infibulation etc)?   

If a cultural practice has adverse effects then is it something we really believe should be encouraged or permitted?? 

How long does a cultural practice need to exist before it becomes carved in stone and we should not interfere, even if it causes death, injury, mutilation, fear etc?
"At your worst, at your best...who cares? They really aren't that much different anyway, and neither are particularly missed or wanted here anyway." - Marilyn Manson

Re: What's wrong with this, anyway?
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2010, 03:21:54 AM »
Damballah, that is just scary!   asasasasas


(I'm not refering to "go for a Brozillian!! for Stil")    bpbpbpbpbp
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A-Train

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Re: What's wrong with this, anyway?
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2010, 05:57:53 AM »
It's a deeply-rooted cultural issue aided by the logical argument that anybody has the right to defend himself.  But modest laws that would make it difficult for criminals or mentally ill people to buy guns, (or even assault weapons for that matter), are impossible to pass.  We regulate cars much more than we regulate guns. 

As Con eluded, gun laws in the inner city should be different from rifle laws in the country but even that bit of logical regulation, (something Obama ran on), is quickly snuffed out as government tyranny by a very effective, vocal and sophisticated lobby.  The Dems have completed abandoned this issue as a political loser for a decade at least.

Sickening factoid; the drug wars in Mexico are carried largely by guns bought...you know where...America.  Seems it's easier to buy one in the U.S. than it is in Mexico.
"The young do not know enough to be prudent, and therefore attempt the impossible and achieve it, generation after generation.

Pearl S. Buck

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Mimi

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Re: What's wrong with this, anyway?
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2010, 08:01:31 AM »
Sickening factoid; the drug wars in Mexico are carried largely by guns bought...you know where...America.  Seems it's easier to buy one in the U.S. than it is in Mexico.

That's a good point.  We're definitely not innocent when it comes to the crime in Mexico.  Drugs come in, guns go out.  I think we get the better end of the deal.

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kitano

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Re: What's wrong with this, anyway?
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2010, 09:11:01 AM »
owning slaves is also fundamental to american culture but noone sticks up for that nowadays

/devils avvocado

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Damballah

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Re: What's wrong with this, anyway?
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2010, 12:26:50 PM »
owning slaves is also fundamental to american culture but noone sticks up for that nowadays


Interesting point.

One of the premises that the US wanders around the world on is 'encouraging' countries to change traditional cultural forms of government for 'democracy', so my guess would be that most Americans believe that cultural change is completely possible, even desirable.  :)

The right to bear arms is also clearly demonstrated by the US being the biggest overall purveyor of arms, and the top supplier of weapons to developing countries.  In fact the right to bear arms for people (OK for the governments, terrorists and military) in developing countries is higher on the list than the need for development aid, if we look at the value of the arms supplied versus the value in aid donation.

 
"At your worst, at your best...who cares? They really aren't that much different anyway, and neither are particularly missed or wanted here anyway." - Marilyn Manson

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Escaped Lunatic

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Re: What's wrong with this, anyway?
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2010, 05:32:53 PM »
I seem to recall at least one Congresscritter who wanted to ban handgun ownership, but had a personal concealed carry permit, for protection. kkkkkkkkkk

Mandatory trigger locks would go a long way towards reducing accidental deaths.

The stats are interesting, but I'd like to see a real comparison - how many domestic violence deaths, other homicides, and suicides by ANY means for different countries.  Full statistics would show if the presence of guns really contributes to the total or if it's just a handy way to accomplish something that was already going to happen anyway.  If I'm going to be murdered, I can think of a lot worse ways to go than a bullet (for example, being dropped into a pit full of hungry weasels).  If Joe Sixpack is really going to kill his wife or himself, there are plenty of other ways to do it.

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Re: What's wrong with this, anyway?
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2010, 09:49:10 PM »
Yes, but Joe will need far more resolve to stab or bludgeon someone to death than to point a contraption and flip a switch.
And there is no liar like the indignant man... -Nietszche

Nothing is so fatiguing as the eternal hanging on of an uncompleted task. -William James

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Escaped Lunatic

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Re: What's wrong with this, anyway?
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2010, 04:08:26 PM »
That's where full statistics would be useful.  Are most suicides, domestic violence killers, and other murderers really determined enough to go the distance with a weapon that requires a little bit more effort that pulling a trigger?  Just saying that X number of people who committed suicide or were killed by others died via bullets isn't enough data to draw any real conclusions.

Of course, in Canada, it's easy to murder your spouse without a gun and get away with it.  Just ask him/her to step outside to check the mailbox in winter and lock the door.  Oh no, another terrible accident where someone froze to death. uuuuuuuuuu
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Damballah

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Re: What's wrong with this, anyway?
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2010, 08:36:58 PM »
A couple of interesting stats for you:

http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/domviofs.htm

Plus:

The risk of a homicide was in fact slightly higher in homes where a handgun was present, rather than lower. From the details of the homicides he concluded that the risk of a crime of passion or other domestic dispute ending in a fatal injury was much higher when a gun was readily available (essentially all the increased risk being in homes where a handgun was kept loaded and unlocked), compared to a lower rate of fatality in domestic violence not involving a firearm. This increase in mortality, he postulated, was large enough to overwhelm any protective effect the presence of a gun might have by deterring or defending against burglaries or home invasions, which occurred much less frequently.

And about suicide:

Research published in the New England Journal of Medicine and the National Academy of Science found an association between household firearm ownership and gun suicide rates,[19][20] though a study by one researcher did not find a statistically significant association between household firearms and gun suicide rates,[21] except in the suicides of children aged 5–14.[21] During the 1980s and early 1990s, there was a strong upward trend in adolescent suicides with a gun,[22] as well as a sharp overall increase in suicides among those age 75 and over.[23]

« Last Edit: July 16, 2010, 08:47:04 PM by Damballah »
"At your worst, at your best...who cares? They really aren't that much different anyway, and neither are particularly missed or wanted here anyway." - Marilyn Manson