What's wrong with this, anyway?

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A-Train

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What's wrong with this, anyway?
« on: July 11, 2010, 10:08:58 PM »

http://www.jsonline.com/news/waukesha/98082044.html

Woman wears gun in holster to church

A Unitarian Universalist church might well be the last place you'd expect to find someone wearing a gun.

Maybe that's why Krysta Sutterfield chose the Unitarian church in Brookfield for an open-carry demonstration on Sunday. If she wanted to bring attention to the gun rights debate, she surely succeeded, though she probably didn't plan on getting arrested in the process.

Brookfield police said Thursday they were called to the church at 13001 W. North Ave. about 10:30 a.m. by a church staffer who said a woman was wearing a handgun in a hip holster. By the time three squad cars arrived, Sutterfield was driving away. She was stopped, and police found the loaded 9mm gun in a zipped case on the passenger seat.

She was handcuffed, taken to the police station, processed and ticketed for having the loaded gun in her car - a state forfeiture citation, not a criminal offense. Sutterfield was then released.

She was not ticketed for openly carrying the weapon into the church, which did not have signs prohibiting firearms.

"We've referred the case to the district attorney," Police Capt. Phil Horter said.

Sutterfield, 41, of Milwaukee, referred questions Thursday to her attorney, Rebecca Coffee, who said she couldn't comment on her client's intentions or actions Sunday.


Caryl Sewel, president of the congregation, said that Sutterfield's gun was clearly visible on her hip, but that she didn't ever remove it from its holster or do anything overtly threatening. Still, it concerned Sewell.

"I didn't feel comfortable asking her why she was wearing the gun," Sewel said. "Truthfully, we found it very intimidating," especially in light of the 2005 shootings at a church service at a Brookfield hotel that left eight people dead, and a 2008 shooting at a Unitarian church in Tennessee that killed two people.

But Sewel said other members did ask Sutterfield, and she replied she was expressing her 2nd Amendment rights.

Sewel said other staff called the administrative line of the Brookfield Police Department for clarification about the legality, and the officers responded in force with at least three squad cars. She said she didn't think that was an overreaction, again because of the memories of the 2005 shootings.

The church will probably now post a sign banning guns, Sewel said, but it has no grudge against Sutterfield.

"We'd be happy to have her come back," Sewel said. "Just don't bring a gun."

Gun rights advocates are riding some momentum lately. Last year, state Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen advised law enforcement that open-carry was not, in itself, a basis for a charge of disorderly conduct. Last week, the U.S. Supreme Court held that the 2nd Amendment right of most individuals to possess firearms applies to the states, and within a day, one Wisconsin district attorney said he would no longer prosecute cases of concealed carry or transporting uncased or loaded guns in vehicles. A challenge to Wisconsin law banning guns within 1,000 feet of a school is pending in federal court.

Nik Clark, president of Wisconsin Carry Inc., called the state "behind the times" for prohibiting transport of loaded guns, which most states allow.

"Wisconsin Carry advocates that people follow all Wisconsin firearm regulations, even those we find patently unconstitutional, until such time as we are able to change those laws through legal challenges and/or legislative changes," Clark said.

Jeri Bonavia, executive director of the Wisconsin Anti-Violence Effort, disagrees with the basic open-carry tenet that armed law-abiding people deter criminals.

"When people make a decision to carry a gun or that a gun will keep them safer, they have the opportunity to analyze risks and benefits. They get to decide," she Bonavia said. "But when they bring it into public, they're forcing their analysis on all of us."

Broad research shows, she said, that "guns, overall, do not promote public or personal safety."

"The young do not know enough to be prudent, and therefore attempt the impossible and achieve it, generation after generation.

Pearl S. Buck

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Pashley

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Re: What's wrong with this, anyway?
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2010, 10:23:30 PM »
My dad was a Canadian cop.

When I was kid, there was a law against "concealed weapons", carrying a pocket knife with a blade over some size (6 inches? 4?) was illegal, but a hunting knife worn openly on the belt was legal. I remember asking him "What about a sword?" and being told that would be legal.

Canadian law has changed a lot since then. Today things like nunchaku (two short sticks & chain between) or shukiren (throwable "ninja" stars) are in the same legal category as automatic firearms.
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Escaped Lunatic

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Re: What's wrong with this, anyway?
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2010, 10:26:41 PM »
Canadian law has changed a lot since then. Today things like nunchaku (two short sticks & chain between) or shukiren (throwable "ninja" stars) are in the same legal category as automatic firearms.

Has this significantly reduced the number of people killed by nunchucks and throwing stars, or do the local ninjas flout the law and use them anyway?   ahahahahah

Since they are so flexible in their choice of weapons for assassinations, wouldn't it be easier just to ban ninjas, or are they considered to be a special interest group in need of legal protections?  bibibibibi
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Damballah

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Re: What's wrong with this, anyway?
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2010, 01:10:39 AM »
I wonder if Krysta will suffer the same fate as Meleanie Hain?  Remember the soccer mum who open-carried her weapon to her 5 year old daughter's soccer game?
"At your worst, at your best...who cares? They really aren't that much different anyway, and neither are particularly missed or wanted here anyway." - Marilyn Manson

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mlaeux

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Re: What's wrong with this, anyway?
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2010, 03:36:55 AM »

Quote
I wonder if Krysta will suffer the same fate as Meleanie Hain?  Remember the soccer mum who open-carried her weapon to her 5 year old daughter's soccer game?


Yea, whatever happened? I don't remember a follow up to that story.

BTW - Florida is a right to carry state. You can bet that many of the WWII vets are either packing heat or have a gun stashed in their car. They just have the good sense to not go parading around in public displaying their firearm(s).

Here's what I want to know, why are these women displaying their firearms at public gatherings? Do they have an attention seeking problem?

Obviously churches and kids soccer games aren't the most threatening locations.

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Damballah

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Re: What's wrong with this, anyway?
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2010, 01:08:37 PM »
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/873961/husband-kills-gun-advocate-wife-in-us

In the US, death by gun stats are very interesting:  approximately 54 percent resulted from suicide, 41 percent resulted from homicide (including domestic violence), and 3 percent were unintentional (see figure 2). Firearm injuries are the eighth leading cause of death in the United States. In addition, for every fatal shooting, there are roughly three nonfatal shootings."


And from a woman's point of view:

"The greatest risk of gun violence to women around the world is not on the streets, or the battlefield, but in their own homes. Women are three times more likely to die violently if there is a gun in the house. Usually the perpetrator is a spouse or partner, often with a prior record of domestic abuse. Gun violence can be part of the cycle of intimidation and aggression that many women experience from an intimate partner. For every woman killed or physically injured by firearms, many more are threatened. "

.......

 
"At your worst, at your best...who cares? They really aren't that much different anyway, and neither are particularly missed or wanted here anyway." - Marilyn Manson

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kitano

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Re: What's wrong with this, anyway?
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2010, 03:00:28 PM »
it's cool that america loves guns etc etc but there is absolutely no reason to have one in your house all the time...

i thnk that having a gun in your house is so stupid

Re: What's wrong with this, anyway?
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2010, 03:04:36 PM »
And from a woman's point of view:

"The greatest risk of gun violence to women around the world is not on the streets, or the battlefield, but in their own homes. Women are three times more likely to die violently if there is a gun in the house. Usually the perpetrator is a spouse or partner, often with a prior record of domestic abuse. Gun violence can be part of the cycle of intimidation and aggression that many women experience from an intimate partner. For every woman killed or physically injured by firearms, many more are threatened. "

Personally, I hate guns and except for a few select reasons, I have never understood the need to carry something that can kill a person instantaneously. I will never fight for the use of common people having guns.

Having said that, the above quote (IMHO) has little to do with guns. They seem more of a means. I don't blame the guns, these guys have just found a quicker and easier way to vent their anger.

Though not as prevelent, men are shot dead by their spouse to at an alarming rate too. But that doesn't make news, the story is usually, "oh, I'm sure the guy deserved it" bibibibibi
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Mimi

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Re: What's wrong with this, anyway?
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2010, 04:57:08 PM »
Though not as prevelent, men are shot dead by their spouse to at an alarming rate too. But that doesn't make news, the story is usually, "oh, I'm sure the guy deserved it" bibibibibi

Who says that the guy deserved it?  The media?  The masses?  Or are you referring to cases where women shoot their abusive partners in self-defense?  I've never heard of a woman shooting a man NOT in self-defense and any credible source saying that he deserved it just because he is a man.  It makes me wonder why you would perceive things that way.

Re: What's wrong with this, anyway?
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2010, 05:19:33 PM »
Remember Phil Hartman, the incredibly funny man of Saturday Night Live, News Radio and Simpsons fame?  His wife shot him in his sleep after he threatened... to divorce her over her cocaine habit.

I personally don't see a "blame the victim" bias in the media about murdered husbands; I don't see much of ANY reports of murdered husbands.
And there is no liar like the indignant man... -Nietszche

Nothing is so fatiguing as the eternal hanging on of an uncompleted task. -William James

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Escaped Lunatic

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Re: What's wrong with this, anyway?
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2010, 07:18:04 PM »
it's cool that america loves guns etc etc but there is absolutely no reason to have one in your house all the time...

i thnk that having a gun in your house is so stupid

It's a little hard to make advanced reservations to have one in your house when you do need it. ahahahahah

My home in Florida was in a very rural location.  Although my preferred method of dealing with venomous reptiles is a shovel, I always kept guns in the house.  Between that place and the previous house (20 years total), I used them twice.  Once on a diamondback rattlesnake in the dog yard that was a little too big to go after with a shovel and once on a raccoon that was acting suspiciously like it had rabies. bababababa

Here in the Big Silly, most of the wild animals have already been eaten and they seem to do a pretty good job keeping guns away from criminals, so I don't feel the need to have a gun here. I do sometimes kind of miss having a large shovel handy. ahahahahah

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Stil

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Re: What's wrong with this, anyway?
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2010, 07:29:20 PM »
I don't understand the need for handguns at all but I'm not American, I'm Canadian. I also don't understand the need for haggis, bullfighting, vuvuzelas and Belgians but I'm not from any of those countries either.

When we are talking about guns in America or even the intended meaning of the 'right to keep and bear arms', we are talking about the very core and foundation of what it is to be American, It's part of their constitution, the second amendment.

When viewing other countries peccadilloes, we generally have no problem chalking differences up to culture. Why do we ignore this with Americans?

Guns are part of American culture. Even Americans who don't like guns are get pissed if others start jumping on what they believe to be their rights as an American.

As a Canadian I consider hockey, maple syrup, poutine, touques, back bacon, beer and beaver as part of my culture. God help you if you try and take away my beaver.

Re: What's wrong with this, anyway?
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2010, 08:12:27 PM »
God help you if you try and take away my beaver.

 offtopic but Hey Stil,

I didn't know you had a beaver. It's pretty hot now, so make sure you shave your beaver
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Damballah

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Re: What's wrong with this, anyway?
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2010, 09:36:09 PM »
No - go for a Brozillian!!

Given that 90% of domestic violence related deaths are women, it would be unusual to see too much written about male deaths - pretty much the same as men who get breast cancer (and yes, it happens!).

Interesting stats.:

Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):

                               Homicide    Suicide    Other (inc Accident)
            
USA (2001)                3.98    5.92   0.36
Italy (1997)                    0.81   1.1           0.07
Switzerland (1998)   0.50    5.8      0.10
Canada (2002)            0.4           2.0           0.04
Finland (2003)           0.35   4.45   0.10
Australia (2001)           0.24   1.34   0.10
France (2001)           0.21   3.4           0.49
England/Wales (2002)   0.15   0.2           0.03
Scotland (2002)           0.06   0.2           0.02
Japan (2002)   0.02   0.04   0
Data taken from Cukier and Sidel (2006) The Global Gun Epidemic. Praeger Security International.  Westport.

"The level of gun ownership world-wide is directly related to murder and suicide rates and specifically to the level of death by gunfire."

International Correlation between gun ownership and rates of homicide and suicide.' Professor Martin Killias, May 1993.


Keeping guns at home or in your car doesn't help all that much either - way to easy to have them stolen:

Based on FBI data, nearly 1.7 million guns have been reported stolen in the past ten years, and only 40% of those were recovered. The missing guns, over 80% of which are taken from homes or cars, most likely fuel the black market for criminals.


And for protecting children?

Between 1979 and 2001, gunfire killed 90,000 children and teens in America. (Children's Defense Fund and National Center for Health Statistics)
In one year, more children and teens died from gunfire than from cancer, pneumonia, influenza, asthma, and HIV/AIDS combined. (Children's Defense Fund)

The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)


"At your worst, at your best...who cares? They really aren't that much different anyway, and neither are particularly missed or wanted here anyway." - Marilyn Manson

Re: What's wrong with this, anyway?
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2010, 12:18:06 AM »
Since America has proven itself incapable of distinguishing between handguns in the city and rifles/shotguns in the country, the only way out of the impasse will be the fingerprint trigger: only the owner would be able to fire it.  No more children killing each other while playing with Dad's cool toy.  Shooting your wife because you're very drunk and she might be cheating on you, well, this innovation won't help at all.
And there is no liar like the indignant man... -Nietszche

Nothing is so fatiguing as the eternal hanging on of an uncompleted task. -William James

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