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Poll

Climate change is a clear and present danger. We must act quickly and dramatically to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels.

I agree
19 (79.2%)
I disagree
4 (16.7%)
I don't have an opinion
1 (4.2%)

Total Members Voted: 24

Author Topic: Copenhagen and climate change  (Read 6412 times)

Yokie Kuma

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Re: Copenhagen and climate change
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2009, 04:09:53 AM »
Solar power will be the final answer: clean, inexhaustible.

I have additional concerns.  Remember basic physics that energy cannot be created or destroyed?

Well, every "watt" of solar energy that we would use is a "watt" that doesn't go where it currently is going.  Understand, the "watts" a house may use is in-signficant when compared to the "watts" being received ..... but think of it this way .... if the solar "watts" are keeping the earth warm and growing plants, etc..... if we use enough of them then we will have a cooling issue or dying vegetation ....

It is impossible to take these solar "watts" without affecting something ... yes, the effect is probably insignificant, but as we add and add and add .....

Here's a thought .... some people are sinking turbines in the ocean and having the currents turn them to create power.  Brilliant idea.  And people say "inexhaustible".  But!!!!  It is easy to see that these turbines have to slow down the current passing through them .... they convert current to electricity.

Put enough of them in a single location and the reduction in current speed is measureable.

Put enough of them in that nice warm current that lands in England .... and without a doubt there will be climate change in England.

We can take from one source and be insignificant .... but there are limits to all of these "wonder" sources of power. 

Put up enough solar panels and the ground underneath will cool.
Put up enough sea turbines and the warm currents will decrease.

Heck, there is even the driving holes into the earth to tap into the nice and hot magma down there to make steam and drive turbines .... enough of them (measured in the billions of course) has to cool the earth's core.  I know I know I know .... these are extreme cases .... but still must be considered.

There is no free lunch ....

We live in a closed system ....
"A ship in port is safe; but that is not what ships are built for."  Grace Hopper

"Procrastination: Hard work often pays off after time, but laziness always pays off now." Larry Kersten

Pashley

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Re: Copenhagen and climate change
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2009, 11:29:56 AM »
Solar power will be the final answer: clean, inexhaustible.

I have additional concerns.  Remember basic physics that energy cannot be created or destroyed?

Well, every "watt" of solar energy that we would use is a "watt" that doesn't go where it currently is going. ... if we use enough of them then we will have a cooling issue or dying vegetation ....

It is impossible to take these solar "watts" without affecting something ... yes, the effect is probably insignificant, but as we add and add and add .....

Put up enough solar panels and the ground underneath will cool.

Assuming both the greenhouse gasses & global warming stuff and your suggested cooling from solar heat are real, could we arrange things so the two cancel out, get a balance?

Quote
We live in a closed system ....

The Earth is definitely not a closed system; it gets continual energy inputs from the Sun. It is not even an entirely stable system; it gets everything from "freak storms" to ice ages.
Who put a stop payment on my reality check?

A-Train

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Re: Copenhagen and climate change
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2009, 01:46:36 PM »
Solar power will be the final answer: clean, inexhaustible.
if the solar "watts" are keeping the earth warm and growing plants, etc..... if we use enough of them then we will have a cooling issue or dying vegetation ....

Isn't this happening now?  With all the buildings, roads, parking lots etc. in existence, isn't the amount of sun that reaches the earth's surface lowered?  Would it be feasible to locate the solar generators on top of these buildings making each one a small-scale generator?
"The young do not know enough to be prudent, and therefore attempt the impossible and achieve it, generation after generation.

Pearl S. Buck

Eagle

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Re: Copenhagen and climate change
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2009, 02:53:14 PM »
LE, I agree with much of what you have said about simplifying life.  That said, what would we NOT give up?  Will we give up flying off to another country to teach and to explore?  Will we give up the communication technology that allows us to connect with family and friends in relatively healthy ways that allow our human psyche to become healthier? 

I could easily give up most of my clothing (all of it if the weather would stay warm and the other folk around me wouldn't freak out) and a lot of technology.  I don't need a TV, dishwasher, etc.; but don't touch my computer.  Without a computer I would be a hermit, a social washout (problem of being an introvert in an extroverted world).  I could learn to live without coffee, but the coffee grows anyway.  Plants will grow, animals will continue to roam.  Nature has room for CO2, but not really for the excess that comes from too many people doing too many things such as driving and consuming things that basically have one purpose, that of keeping an economy going.

As much as the middle ages can be appealing from a purist point of view, no one actually wants to retreat back to that stage of human existence.  So, how to make the best of a hard situation? 
“… whatever reality may be, it will to some extent be shaped by the lens
through which we see it.” (James Hollis)

Foscolo

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Re: Copenhagen and climate change
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2009, 03:28:20 PM »
I'm 44, and the population of the planet has doubled in my lifetime. That's the problem. If there were 3.5 billion of us instead of 7, things would be looking quite different now. But trying to limit population growth is the one thing that just doesn't get discussed. Except in China, of course.

I read on an internet news site the other day that a very large proportion of able-bodied Chinese citizens are required to go and plant a few trees as part of the reforestation program. Is that really true, or was it mis-reporting?
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Lotus Eater

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Re: Copenhagen and climate change
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2009, 04:15:55 PM »
I agree with you Eagle, and no way would I advocate returning to the Middle Ages - no appeal there at all!!  For several hours today I would gladly have deleted all computers from the world, but an hour chat and a 'walk-through' of my sister's new house with the help of Skype, and another hour chat with my pregnant daughter (complete with gorgeous photos of her latest scan, showing that the baby looks like Dad!) restored my acceptance of this technology!!   akakakakak akakakakak akakakakak

This is a genie that isn't going back into the bottle, but there must be a way we can reduce the impact. 

The real problem is that if we don't make some pretty drastic changes, then, in the not too distant future, we won't have choices.  Now at least we still have options that we can exercise.

Eagle

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Re: Copenhagen and climate change
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2009, 06:04:44 PM »
Truth is, I'm not much concerned about mother nature or the planet.  All will proceed as it will and should.  What is at the centre of my concern is the fate of our species and the heritage we leave for my children and grandchildren.  If I lose all that I have, I still will have lived well for a good portion of my life.  I don't need much more.  However, I will continue to live well as long as I am able.

Living well does not mean consuming more than I have too or not being a responsible citizen of the planet.  This is something that most don't seem to understand.  Living well is not about stuff, it is about soul ... being at peace with one's self.  And as with the environment, it is the little things that count the most. 

There was/is a book called Don't Sweat the Small Stuff that offers a different idea.  My belief is that we indeed pay attention to the small stuff.  That is the only things that we as individuals have the power to change/control/guide. 

Of course there are too many of us.  But what do we do about it?  Do we somehow remove 3.5 billion from the role call of breathing people?  Since this isn't something that we can or should be fretting over, all we can do is something small ... one child? no children?  A personal choice.  If you make it a collective choice, better be prepared for those who will have the power to make decisions that aren't really based on human need, but for reasons of power and maintenance of power. 

Do what we can and don't give up personal power if possible.  Think before you do in all things, including unprotected sex which could result in another hungry mouth, another human with needs.
“… whatever reality may be, it will to some extent be shaped by the lens
through which we see it.” (James Hollis)

kitano

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Re: Copenhagen and climate change
« Reply #37 on: December 19, 2009, 11:48:06 PM »
i don't think it can be left to individuals to act responsibly. we don't work like that, it's very hard to discipline yourself when the motivation is so abstract. look at how hard a lot of people find it to lose weight because it takes a month or two to notice any effect, let alone save the planet which is much more difficult and long term and we'll never see the positive effects in most places

of course we have our part to play and cutting our consumption etc is good anyway but this is kind of what we pay leaders for. from them we need serious investment in developing alternative energy, reforesting etc and serious investment in helping the places worst affected by climate change for starters

i'm of the view that this problem is a built in flaw of capitalism just as much as the banking crisis was. it's not a few individuals to blame, it's the whole system

the fact that it's a crisis for any economy no matter how big if it stops growing by more than 5% a year says it all. how can we expect to seriously reduce the amount of crap we are burning/using etc when even countries with way too much money have to make sure their economy is constantly growing or else it will collapse