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Poll

How do you feel about using strong/vulgar language in Saloon posts?

Doesn't bother me; cuss all ya want
35 (71.4%)
I find it offensive and I'd rather not see it here
14 (28.6%)

Total Members Voted: 48

Author Topic: Cussin' in da Saloon  (Read 13401 times)

latefordinner

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Re: Cussin' in da Saloon
« Reply #60 on: March 08, 2009, 04:49:30 AM »
1) Very good idea, moving this to the BS-wrasslin' pit. I was wondering if you would take it upstairs, but leaving it down here is probably the better idea. Since the thread seems to have played itself out, maybe make it a sticky, so newbies can have a look and see how different saloonies feel about this evergreen issue? And yes, this is an evergreen topic.

2)El Macho, I've often had the same idea. We could have mandatory caution signs at the top of potentially offensive posts: one for foul robust language; another to indicate that the poster has been imbibing in front of the 'puter and isn't so much posting as thinkiing out loud what s/he would normally keep to him/herself; yet another to indicate that the poster has been eating too much vegemite lately and is climbing on the soapbox again. Perhaps we already have a form of that. It's called the poster's name.

3) You don't have to intend to injure to cause offense. Some of us manage to, when discussing things that matter to us.
Quote
And then he'd said things, and he'd said things, and suddenly the world was a new and unpleasant place, because things can't be unsaid
None of this requires the use of vulgar language. That's right, my friends. You can be just as offensive without touching a solitary cuss-word. Some of us are good at that.

4) I had 2 main reasons for leaving the g-spoon and coming here. OK, 3. I was invited. But I left the g-spoon largely because I felt that it was excessively moderated. I felt (as many others do) that the larger than life ego sensitivities of one moderator had become more important than the shared concerns and opinions of much of that community. I got the impression that if no one posted there at all, that mod would be one happy chappie.
The other big reason for coming here is that many of the posters here are people that I recognise from years ago at the g-spoon. People like LE and Cheeks. People who sometimes express quite eloquently what I was already thinking my way through; who sometimes surprise me with things I hadn't considered yet; and who sometimes make points that I vehemently disagree with, but they do so with such persuasive reason that I am forced to reconsider things from their perspective. People that I respect. The g-spoon has lost a lot of them over the years, many have come here, so I followed.
One reason that had little to do with it is the internecine bickering that takes place there. That seems to be cropping up here. I'm willing to live with a certain amount. If there is to be any meaningful discussion, there must sometimes be disagreement. Yes, it got pretty ugly there at times, and no I don't want to see it get that bad here. I don't think the bickering is productive, and I don't get a little cyber-thrill from winding people up or making wee in their pockets. <well maybe just that once> But I do believe that, as much as people can be persuaded to tone done their language in the public interest, others can be persuaded not to take offense when clearly none is intended. 

Spaghetti

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Re: Cussin' in da Saloon
« Reply #61 on: March 08, 2009, 05:45:00 AM »
A.) When did the trains in China get swamped with English swearing?

B.) Isn't that a bit like what the French did when they invaded Britain and put the class system on common language and thus invented the antiquated taboos that morally indignant people would then fabricate connections to the bible and its rules just to further implement the classism in language that the French used as a weapon to oppress the working class masses in England back in the 15th century? They did so to sustain their aristocracy and did so without any respect to the community.

Demands and threats to leave a forum if others do not follow your whim are not only childish, but insulting and show absolutely no respect to the theological, cultural, linguistic and regional origins of other posters.

It's classist, elitist, repressive, and in light of how little profanity is actually used here: exaggerated and irrational behavior.

Is "respect" only a one-way street? That seems to be the case some are making here.

C.) With a majority of posters living and working in a country with little freedom of speech, is it too much to ask that the vocal minority not be a defacto red guard and lighten up? Really, HOW HARD IS IT FOR A MATURE INDIVIDUAL TO IGNORE POSTERS WHO SPEAK FREELY AND IN A MANNER THAT OFFENDS YOU THOUGH THEY DO NOT POST TO OFFEND YOU, IT'S JUST YOU WHO READ THEIRS POSTS AS SUCH. Cursing is not dominating the boards, hostility is not seeping through the walls, and cursing CAN BE USED ELOQUENTLY. Watch 1 hour of George Carlin's stand up and I DARE you to prove me wrong regarding cursing used eloquently.

Is it too much to ask for people to lighten up? To respect that this forum is as much a place to NOT have to police one's self from fragile egos who object to any perceived slight based upon their inability to place context of use when reading certain words?

I find the only "hostility" coming from individuals threatening to stop participating in the saloon if they don't get their own way. I find hostility coming from their odd need to dictate what can or cannot be said when they are neither the proprietor nor a moderator of this forum.

If the moderators and owner allow it, then you have to accept it. It's their private place opened to the public. Clearly this would apply if they wanted to implement a form of censorship, but IT ALSO APPLIES WHEN THEY OFFER THE PRIVILEGE OF LINGUISTIC CREATIVITY AND FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION.

D.) With the ample freedom the moderators provide posters in expressing themselves, do we really need a moral and cultural red guard to figuratively police us and further beat us over the head because THEY read words out of context and in a direct, offensive manner, when rarely are such words directed at the reader as an object of scorn, ridicule and ostricization?

E.) Going through the Saloon archives, a majority of posters go on about their posting lives with no problems.  "Live and let live," and, "to each their own."

F.) Lotus made a good point about censorship of ideas, and words are extension of ideas, and if a minority of members want outright banning of words they are also supporting the curbing of ideas. It's not either-or. It's clear cut. If a minority of posters want casual, creative use of cussing banned, does that not mean others are entitled to ask for fluff posts be banned? Posts mentioning religion be banned? Posts critical of anything be banned, because you know - it's hostility!?!

Going through the archives, it appears it's the same minority wanting more controls over linguistic usage are strumming up their annual drum. It would be apparent that the owner and moderators do not share their rigid points of view and perhaps they can be mature enough to continue posting in a manner which exemplifies the kinds of posting behavior they desire, rather than become a new red guard who make threats about leaving when the people who started this forum disagree with their pleas for censorship.

No posters are being asked to leave, nor are the being forced to leave if the occasional, creative, colorful use of cursing crops up, yet some are painting a picture as if they are. This is totally untrue and unfair. Reality is this: not one person has been asked or forced to leave, and anyone leaving because they didn't get their moral agenda furthered is doing so on their own volition. It's too bad they could not find the maturity in themselves to rise above it and continue on, but it is their choice. Using an individual's choice to leave because the owner and moderators of a forum did not bend to their moral compass - using that like a veiled threat, is counterproductive and inaccurate.

Clearly Raoul is not making anyone leave, nor are the moderators. So, can we leave that bogus implication out of the debate? I assume this post falls upon "deaf ears," because the annual drum-bangers on this use of cursing topic took their 'ball" and ran "home," in the face of opposition. llllllllll

If they did indeed take their ball and go home in the face of opposition, that pretty much proves what I was saying to be true: they want things to follow their moral highway, and if they don't they will blame others and waltz off. So, should the same respect be given to their threats of leaving, claims that they are being "forced" to leave, and in their desire to dictate what can and cannot be said on a forum they are neither owner nor moderator of?






« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 03:24:22 PM by Spaghetti »
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George

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Re: Cussin' in da Saloon
« Reply #62 on: March 08, 2009, 06:50:10 AM »
"Deary deary me" to quote Nobody in particular. I'm getting a tad sick of all this waste of bandwidth....is that what it's called??
If you pick up a book and start reading it, only to find that the author has one of his characters saying "Fuck!", do you stop reading that book?
The use of "bad" language in this place is neither, excessive, gratuitous, nor directed at other posters. It comes from the feelings of whatever poster is posting. Sometimes people have a shitty day! Respect their feelings, please! OUT!
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teleplayer

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Re: Cussin' in da Saloon
« Reply #63 on: March 08, 2009, 06:59:47 AM »
"Deary deary me" to quote Nobody in particular. I'm getting a tad sick of all this waste of bandwidth....is that what it's called??
If you pick up a book and start reading it, only to find that the author has one of his characters saying "Fuck!", do you stop reading that book?
The use of "bad" language in this place is neither, excessive, gratuitous, nor directed at other posters. It comes from the feelings of whatever poster is posting. Sometimes people have a shitty day! Respect their feelings, please! OUT!

Well said, George!!!!

Sir Fudge Loving

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Re: Cussin' in da Saloon
« Reply #64 on: March 08, 2009, 01:36:53 PM »

Bottom line: We are requesting people that people please be considerate and moderate their use of profanity. And that's about as far as it goes. If you can't deal with that, I'm really sorry.

I'm not surprised Spaghetti you could write an exhaustive ranting missive based on this one request. What Raoul requests sounds reasonable and responsible to me--exercising consideration of others by moderating your profanity. Now, what's so difficult about that?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2009, 01:42:29 PM by Sir Fudge Loving »
Are you packin'?

Spaghetti

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Re: Cussin' in da Saloon
« Reply #65 on: March 08, 2009, 01:50:42 PM »
I'm not surprised Spaghetti you could write an exhaustive ranting missive based on this one request. What Raoul requests sounds reasonable to me--exercising consideration of others by moderating your profanity. Now, what's so difficult about that?


Perhaps Raoul posted it because a vocal minority complained to him.

 It does not surprise me that you would deliberately call a well thought out missive that provides food for thought as, "ranting."

With such deliberate distortion of the facts, I have to question the truth behind just how much cursing you claimed to "hear" in your environment: the one you tried to use as an example for why you support censorship and justify the reoccurring need that a very vocal minority has in dictating how individuals can express themselves on a forum they do not run.

If Raoul and the mods implement a code of conduct because individuals are not mature enough to ignore things they don't like, as George succinctly made a plea for in his previous post; then that's sad, but it's Raoul and the moderators' call and we abide by it. Clearly the code, if implemented, would be because some people lack the ability to ignore sparsely used words that offend them, and cannot live without demanding other people stop expressing themselves in that manner. A lack of respect, actually; one that demands others bend to their moral compass rather than accepting other moral compasses. The fact Raoul and the moderators have afforded us the freedom to use such language within reason, and to openly debate* the possibility of censorship is rather marvelous.

*"Debate" meaning, "rant" in your preferred nomenclature. Regardless, I'm sorry that you deliberately mistook personal expression and mature debate as "ranting." 

A question for you, SFL: What's so difficult about ignoring harmless words that bother you?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 03:26:12 PM by Spaghetti »
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Sir Fudge Loving

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Re: Cussin' in da Saloon
« Reply #66 on: March 08, 2009, 02:09:57 PM »
I guess you told me. I'll pray for you. Jesus will hear my prayers.
Are you packin'?

Spaghetti

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Re: Cussin' in da Saloon
« Reply #67 on: March 08, 2009, 02:12:32 PM »
I'll pray for you. Jesus will hear my prayers.
mmmmmmmmmm kkkkkkkkkk

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Nolefan

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Re: Cussin' in da Saloon
« Reply #68 on: March 08, 2009, 04:58:51 PM »

Ok... I've had enough of this thing by now! We've gone beyond beating a dead horse at this point and what we got here is a perfect case of trying to nuke a dead cadaver...

Spaghetti, I for once resent the whole native speaker/non-native speaker issue and find that is has no bearing on the issue at hand... as a matter of fact, I will go on the record by saying that is baseless, tasteless and classless... the issue with cursing is present in any language, not just English and you're displaying quite a narrow view by referring to how the "french" influenced languages and made it so that curse words fell out of favor. Folks have been cussing since as long as we can remember and it's been frowned upon by society for just as long, regardless of the language.


What is at stake here is the concept of community vs. forum! And what we have here at Raoul's is a community!

This community has been around for a fairly long time by internet standards and it so happens that some of the members don't like cussin.. These members have been around here for quite a long time and their input extremely respected and valuable.

As a community, we like and respect each other! 
As a community, we have each other's back!
As a community, we do NOT try and hide behind words while directing personal attacks!
As a community, we care for each other!


I have been member of this said community long before I was one of the so-called "despots" and what made me enjoy it was the fact that I felt I could open my house and welcome just about anybody  there! And I have done so many times over.... By the same token, several members  of this community have opened their house to me and welcomed me with open arms.

Yes, I like cussing as much as the next person and those who know me in person can testify of that... However, I do care about some of the folks on here more so than I care about using "F#$k" , "C$%T etc.... And thankfully, I master the language enough where I don't need to use said words to make a point. Yes, there are times when there is no substitute and a word will slip here and there, mostly in the "what's pissing you off thread" because that is what's it's there for...

And all of this is not related in any way, shape or form to being a native speaker or any language!!! It's about social norms, behavior, education, class and respecting your community.

And no, this is not about censorship.

it would be censorship if we put a robocop in place to filter out all of these words which we've never done at the Saloon for as long as I have been part of it, mostly because we trust the members to be considerate towards each other.... something you (yes I am referring to you Spaghetti) is apparently unable to do.

yes, this is a direct message posted in public for everyone to see telling you that your contributions are not worth the trouble you're creating on these boards by being overly aggressive, disrespectful and plain rude.

yes, this is a direct message posted in public for everyone to see telling you that when you come to someone's house, you're supposed to make an effort and adapt to said house, not vice versa!

yes, this is a direct message posted in public for everyone to see telling you that you are out of line and your apologies are expected sooner than later.


alors régressons fatalement, eternellement. Des débutants, avec la peur comme exutoire à l'ignorance et Alzheimer en prof d'histoire de nos enfances!
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Calach Pfeffer

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Re: Cussin' in da Saloon
« Reply #69 on: March 08, 2009, 06:38:37 PM »
Community fundamentals:

Relationships produce production.
Production produces relationships.

I believe it just does happen that while most people can subscribe to both of these axioms, most people, literally as a matter of who they are and how they function, will genuinely prefer one over the other. 

In other words, for most people, it is either a sense of togetherness that enables cooperative work or it is cooperative work that enables a sense of togetherness.

Those who emphasize relationships first will tend to value standards of behaviour.  Those who put the product first will, by definition, tend to worry less about behaviour if that behaviour does not impact the work.

The world probably needs both kinds of people.  And both kinds of people will probably always rub each other a little bit the wrong way.





(And all that was just so you know why in this topic people tend to end up shitting on each other's shoes.  For more help, you can call my 1-800 number, 32863669.  Ask for Guru K.  We sell firearms.)

» now with New and Endlessly Improving CV 4U  ٩( ᐛ )و

Spaghetti

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Re: Cussin' in da Saloon
« Reply #70 on: March 08, 2009, 11:31:33 PM »


What is at stake here is the concept of community vs. forum! And what we have here at Raoul's is a community!

This community has been around for a fairly long time by internet standards and it so happens that some of the members don't like cussin.. These members have been around here for quite a long time and their input extremely respected and valuable.


But they are not moderators. You are. They want to dictate forum censorship, which is not their job. Does it mean that the vocal minority will have sway and new members can expect that anything said that the moderators have not had issue with - if two members have issue with it then those two members can dictate forum policy while the overwhelming majority have no issue with it cannot? Last I checked the majority of posters here voted against censorship.


It's a brutal street trying to be a one way street when it's a two way street.

To simplify "there's cursing in every language," is a pedestrian view and one that removes the reality behind why some words are not viewed as taboo by others.

I'm sorry I offended you, Nolefan.  I'm sorry how I stated my opinions offended anyone.  Intent was to prove a point. I'm sorry it did not come off that way. I disagree with your take, but as a member I play by the rules. i. e. his topic was moved into the b. s. wrestling pit, I debated the issue.


« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 03:15:20 PM by Spaghetti »
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cheekygal

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Re: Cussin' in da Saloon
« Reply #71 on: March 09, 2009, 01:50:30 AM »
Spaghetti, I am a very peaceful person but you are really crossing the line here. You are insulting people in nearly every thread on different occasions. I am very sorry for your bitter unhappy self.

Isn't it time to lock this thread?

Wags

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Re: Cussin' in da Saloon
« Reply #72 on: March 09, 2009, 01:58:56 AM »
I Moderate myself by choosing what to read, this is very important as sometimes I can get quite depressed reading BS such as this. And Spag, you are dead wrong, the censorship issue wasn't the issue here it was all about a mistaken view point of disrespect which I hope has been clarified.

You can use that poll to show what ever you want but people here are more concerned about disrespect than they could be about swearing, quotes like these are what I don't like to read and why I haven't touched this thread in days;

"Perhaps Raoul posted it because a vocal minority complained to him: the same minority that gets their panties in a knot quite often, if I can use the site archives as evidence"

It's not a minority it's people within a community. kkkkkkkkkk

" It does not surprise me that you would deliberately call a well thought out missive that provides food for thought as, "ranting.""

You are ranting the issue was finalised and resolved, sheesh now you've got me ranting. asasasasas

"It has become apparent that this is a reoccurring that may very well come from the same perpetrators. One that disrupts the community. One that does not respect others nor has their back."

Come again? It's disruptive to the community to let some peoples voices heard? aint that CENSORSHIP? mmmmmmmmmm

SO feel free to heap the shit upon me now I have thrown my hat into this circular argument of stupidity you've created but I have never been able to stand idly by as someone attacks my community. I try to build my community, what are you doing? And please do waste your time by creating some massive missive as why I'm a total douche because I for one am done with this thread and it will not be read so it's a moot point now.


Raoul F. Duke

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Re: Cussin' in da Saloon
« Reply #73 on: March 09, 2009, 02:38:02 AM »
Whoa.

I think a lot of people's sensitivities are set waaaaay too high.

I think there's so much misunderstanding regarding this thread that it can never be fixed.

I think the references to non-natives was indeed out of line. Otherwise I also think a lot of what Spaghetti has said (certainly not all of it) does make sense.

I think it's time to lock this thread. Damn it. asasasasas
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