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Poll

How do you feel about using strong/vulgar language in Saloon posts?

Doesn't bother me; cuss all ya want
35 (71.4%)
I find it offensive and I'd rather not see it here
14 (28.6%)

Total Members Voted: 48

Author Topic: Cussin' in da Saloon  (Read 13405 times)

Spaghetti

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Re: Cussin' in da Saloon
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2009, 10:53:02 AM »

I will herein amend my post to read "linguistically or verbally challenged or incompetent"
Cussing doesn't bother me just how I feel.  asasasasas  :lickass:

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psd4fan

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Re: Cussin' in da Saloon
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2009, 10:58:33 AM »
This is why I love this F$%^ing place  afafafafaf we can disagree amicably and not too many people get their knickers in a knot. Especially not me since I ain't wearin any. cbcbcbcbcb

The Local Dialect

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Re: Cussin' in da Saloon
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2009, 11:18:36 AM »
I don't mind cussing at all. I don't swear in writing that often, probably because it was always sort of ingrained in me not to. I swear quite a bit in real life.

I understand why some sites, particularly those that subsist on advertising, don't allow swearing. I think that there's also the idea that too much swearing might appear unprofessional, which makes some forums set stricter rules. I'm not offended by swearing in the least, but it isn't appropriate in some settings.

That said, I don't think the swearing here is either excessive or gratuitous.

Some sites do allow for a swear filter to be turned on/off by the individual, rather than the admin of the forum as a whole. Is that possible with the format here?

non-dave

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Re: Cussin' in da Saloon
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2009, 01:29:28 PM »
I'm not in favour of any kind of censorship. If you don't like something, that's ok, don't like it, but don't tell me how I should feel about your reaction to something, please!

I understand that some people have a different opinion and I support their right to do so, but censorship is a really slippery slope, in my opinion, and once started down it its real hard to stop.

The main issue I see here is that this is not a public site, it is private and it is owned by someone and at the end of the day we agree to play by the rules set down or take our toys and play somewhere else.

I say celebrate the diversity - and if you don't like the language don't read it.
You have to care for it to matter.
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cheekygal

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Re: Cussin' in da Saloon
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2009, 02:32:52 PM »
I voted but this thread is what I thought it would turn out to be - another excuse for arguments  bibibibibi Thank you for new guidelines. It is only fair if people are warned about some strong language used in threads.

Lotus Eater

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Re: Cussin' in da Saloon
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2009, 02:40:19 PM »
If the 'cuss' words didn't have deeper meanings we wouldn't use them.  If these words DIDN'T have a history and an original intent to be offensive, there would be no issue. To say they are merely words or random collections of letters is to negate the power of language - what we are supposed to be teaching every day. ahahahahah ahahahahah

What we are looking at isn't so much censorship, but an agreed set of norms for a community.  Any community establishes these norms.  Your own homes will have actions and ideas that are censored - no spitting on the floor, don't discuss the war eg.  Being part of a community implies that we do care about others reactions to things.

Here we have already established a few 'no go' areas of discussion because we have people who have diametrically opposing ideas and in promoting those ideas, can offend others.  (NO DISSING VEGEMITE!)  So if we already have areas (IDEAS and beliefs) where we do not want to offend others, why are we feeling censored by asking people not to use words that were INTENDED to be offensive?

And as pointed out - we can create many other ways of expressing feelings.

I can use every one of the words so far written (you left out a couple Spag - mostly to do with female anatomy... I wonder if that's why women get offended by them????? bibibibibi). But, if we are in control of our emotions enough to compose and correct our writing, then we are also capable of knowing that we may cause offence.  Persisting in doing something that we know will cause offence then, by definition, becomes aggressive, and offence is intended.  We are, in effect, saying "It's my right to say what I want. So stuff your prudish mind."  

Calach Pfeffer

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Re: Cussin' in da Saloon
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2009, 03:24:50 PM »
 Being part of a community implies that we do care about others reactions to things.

It'd also imply, possibly, that the terms of that community are defined.  As in, we are a community built and intended for the purpose of distributing and discussing kiddi--, um, life in China...  oh, wait, is that our community?

Quote
So if we already have areas (IDEAS and beliefs) where we do not want to offend others, why are we feeling censored by asking people not to use words that were INTENDED to be offensive?

Because we all, which is to say, me and my invisible friend, want to decide for ourselves if they are offensive.  We wish for language, and other things, to be creative and generative, not (merely, even as they are necessarily) hidebound and conventional.  Nancys arguing that these words are confrontational and divisive are, frankly, being confrontational and divisive!  (More exactly, creating groups in or out of ascendance: those who are offended and have moral clout, and those who aren't offended and have enthusiasm, and others, unaffiliated and careless.)

However, if the community is one for the exchange of positive feeling and made as a safe, harmonious place for rest and recuperation, then it ought to be curse-less.  Because smiles and rainbows create closer immediate ties than does jarring chest bumping.



And on the question of smiles, may I ask, if it smells like bqbqbqbqbq, looks like bqbqbqbqbq, tastes like bqbqbqbqbq, do we need to be reminded of bqbqbqbqbq?  I urge a rethink on the laughably misnomered "smileys" policy.  Smileys?  Is this a smile to you:  bqbqbqbqbq?

Dj Kalach Extreme, swearing like a school girl since 1964.


» now with New and Endlessly Improving CV 4U  ٩( ᐛ )و

babala

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Re: Cussin' in da Saloon
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2009, 03:39:13 PM »
I don't really care who swears but I do appreciate there are members here who do care. I don't want to see the Saloon get like Dave's where if you type in certain words, you get censored but I would hope that our posters can all respect each other.

It's not about your rights being taken away. It's about respect. If you know that it bothers some people here, why do it? I smoke. I don't smoke in someone's house if I know that it bothers them. I don't think my rights to smoke have been taken away.

Most of us here have gone to university. We were able to debate and express our views there without swearing afafafafaf
Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try. Homer Simpson

Lotus Eater

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Re: Cussin' in da Saloon
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2009, 03:42:14 PM »


Quote
So if we already have areas (IDEAS and beliefs) where we do not want to offend others, why are we feeling censored by asking people not to use words that were INTENDED to be offensive?

Because we all, which is to say, me and my invisible friend, want to decide for ourselves if they are offensive. 

Agreed.  But doesn't this imply that each of us wants to decide for him/herself what ideas and beliefs are also offensive/not offensive and therefore may choose to continue to bleat on about them, no matter what?  And the rest of us merely have to not look, not take any notice?  Or just be warned that LE is on her soapbox, yet again??

As a community, we would probably agree not to hawk, because some of us would find it offensive, even though the majority of people around us do not.  But what we are saying here, is that some people can hawk, and it's their right to, even though it offends others. It is after all, a way of expressing bile.   axaxaxaxax axaxaxaxax axaxaxaxax axaxaxaxax

(Sorry, sometimes I even make myself laugh!)

Stil

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Re: Cussin' in da Saloon
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2009, 03:47:03 PM »
Not a great poll Boss. It's not yes/no for everybody.

I swear in front of some people and not in front of others. I don't feel like my mother is trampling on my rights because she doesn't want me to swear.

For me it's simple. Cheeky (and others) don't like it. I like Cheeky (and others) and don't want her (them) to leave. So I will be careful with my language. Every once in awhile I will use a swear word and will be forgiven for it. I don't need any rules in place to know when I might be offending someone and my right to foul language is very low on my list of things to worry about.

Calach Pfeffer

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Re: Cussin' in da Saloon
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2009, 04:13:16 PM »
Because we all, which is to say, me and my invisible friend, want to decide for ourselves if they are offensive. 

Agreed.  But doesn't this imply that each of us wants to decide for him/herself what ideas and beliefs are also offensive/not offensive and therefore may choose to continue to bleat on about them, no matter what?  And the rest of us merely have to not look, not take any notice?  Or just be warned that LE is on her soapbox, yet again??

I really think the whole thing is not at all about what is and isn't offensive, but about who is and isn't in a group with "you".

Some groups are made by politeness and displays of kindness and concern for feeling; which is to say, some groups are focused on the people in the group and their relationships.  For such groups, and leaders of such groups, management of behaviours that run counter to overall harmonious connections between persons is... plausible.

Other groups are founded on other things, like shared action and value systems maybe, and those groups can be more robust.

This particular community is in fact really very relationships oriented.  There's a definite stated purpose, that of being a resource for the China-bound, and there's another purpose too, that of being a collection of kindreds who support and love each other.  It's a bit weird, and group hugs can break out without warning, but it seems like a lot of the personnel like it that way.


Freaks.


So if everyone would just agree to love each other, support each other and be productive, we could all curse up a storm in sing song fashion and it wouldn't make a jot of difference to the one true love that is our life in unity.

» now with New and Endlessly Improving CV 4U  ٩( ᐛ )و

Spaghetti

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Re: Cussin' in da Saloon
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2009, 05:21:38 PM »
If the 'cuss' words didn't have deeper meanings we wouldn't use them.  If these words DIDN'T have a history and an original intent to be offensive, there would be no issue.

This is totally untrue for many words, including, "fuck," which was a socially acceptable word. Research the history of it and you will find that it was a bunch of non-English speakers who dictated that it was a verbal pariah because of class structure. It stuck, and the rest is history. A lot of this "profanity" bolderdash comes from religious zealots who want to dictate their morality upon the public, and certain classes within society wanting to dictate their moral "norms" upon the working and poorer classes, the so-called, "unenlightened." In fact, the religious silliness that is used as a cultural bar, was often propagated by the rich minority - usually an aristocracy - upon the poorer classes.

Most cussing had relatively innocent origins and once the cultural enforcers - aristocrats, theological terrorists, foreign invaders, and so on - sank their claws into the language and raped it, things were never the same.


 
Quote
To say they are merely words or random collections of letters is to negate the power of language - what we are supposed to be teaching every day. ahahahahah ahahahahah

I don't think anyone is saying that. Inversely, the attributes of the words are given their power by the listener just as much as the user. There is context. That is what presents intent and gives greater meaning to any word.

I think the issue here is more, rather than less, a minority wanting to lay their morality upon a majority who do not share it. As a result, it is problematic because the majority who can get over the silliness of certain words and have the tolerance to see the message for the sum total of its words rather than linger on the very rare usage of what some might deem, "offensive" vocabulary, and thus miss the message because they are to attached to a moral high horse rather than grounded in reality.

With one exception that was dealt with very quickly, I haven't seen a plethora of racial epithets tossed around here. If such words were slung about with abandon, then I'd be able to see the cause for concern. The same would apply to profanity used in a hostile manner and the mods wanting it to be toned down because the impetus of this site was to provide what saps like Sperling clearly were incapable of doing: an informative,  colorful, fun place to post regarding our lives in China, especially for those of us teaching our butts off.

I am making an assumption here, but if a vocal minority who cannot deal with the diversity and realities of the English language are upset, why should the majority have to walk on egg shells when the consensus is that things have not digressed into Raoul's Cuss-o-Rama? When societies bend to the vocal minority who demanded changes that actually trampled freedom of expression rather than protected, nurtured and encouraged it - well, heck, most of us can turn on the television or try to surf to youtube at the moment and see what happens when that becomes the norm. Stifling the raucous few* for the sake of grown adults incapable of ignoring words that are not personal attacks upon them nor their character: it's the same kind of fragile ego syndrome we have to contend with on the job, regarding China. Do we, as mature adults, need to police ourselves for the same thing on the saloon?
 I present that as fuel for meditation.

Quote
What we are looking at isn't so much censorship, but an agreed set of norms for a community.  Any community establishes these norms.  Your own homes will have actions and ideas that are censored - no spitting on the floor, don't discuss the war eg.  Being part of a community implies that we do care about others reactions to things.

Clearly, by voting alone, the community has spoken, and at this moment, they agree that there isn't an issue. So, I guess we've resolved the matter? As for respect towards the community, isn't being mature enough to ignore cussing by a minority of users an act of respect? "To each their own," you know what I mean?

Quote
Here we have already established a few 'no go' areas of discussion because we have people who have diametrically opposing ideas and in promoting those ideas, can offend others.

Positing this idea in a public forum - we need to remember this isn't a public forum like a park, but a public forum presented by a private entity. As such, they have final say and we have to follow it or hit the road. So, applying your quote in the context of a public space owned by the general public: where do you draw the line? Where do you draw the line when the sensitivity of a minority of people is given credence? I am of the opinion that the line is drawn when it infringes upon the individual's rights. No one is forcing them to read the words that offend them, however, their demands are forcing people to censor themselves. When the good natured gestures of fraternity are used to "harmonize" written speech, then it is not respect but a step that treads down a path that could easily lead to oppression on a large scale, or, in the case of something less dramatic, like a message board: a bland, uninteresting, sterile, counterproductive place... Just like the cafe  kkkkkkkkkk

 
Quote
 So if we already have areas (IDEAS and beliefs) where we do not want to offend others, why are we feeling censored by asking people not to use words that were INTENDED to be offensive?

Because the context of the words and how they are used is not offensive! Because we can skip what offends us and move on to what appeals to us without forcing others to mollycoddle us. Really.

 
Quote
And as pointed out - we can create many other ways of expressing feelings.

we can also let people be and ignore things. We can also look at the context of the usage and focus on the message as a whole in and of itself, rather than become myopic charlatans who focus on the individual parts, often removing the "offending" words from context.

Looking at the stats on the vote: could people not create ways of coping with very real, very valid, very creative words that might bother them, but clearly not the majority? Could they just grow up and learn to deal with it? Are they so selfish that they must force a majority to restrict themselves further, especially when this is a haven where we have the freedom to express ourselves in ways we cannot in our daily lives? 

We're not talking trolling or liable or hate speech. We're talking about the occasional cuss word. We are not talking about cussing diatribes but the freedom to occasionally say, "fuck it."

What is being debated here, are a minority of individuals who are incapable of overlooking occasional cussing that is often not thrown around in the public forums with hostility towards fellow members, versus people who are not making personal insults or attacks with their sparse use of cussing, and their freedom to express themselves without fear of recrimination and oppression for the sake of a handful of people too small minded to overlook the words.


Quote
 We are, in effect, saying "It's my right to say what I want. So stuff your prudish mind."  

Or, in effect, we are saying, "boo hoo, I can't be mature enough to ignore a few words so  I want the world to revolve around my fragile psyche. I want everyone to live by my moral compass and if they don't I'm going to throw a tantrum."

In life there are times when the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many, but this is not one of them.  That's my take.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 05:29:55 PM by Spaghetti »
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A-Train

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Re: Cussin' in da Saloon
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2009, 06:47:42 PM »
Personally, I just love good cussin'.  The more creatively disgusting, the more I relish it.  Up until it's directed at someone in the Saloon itself..that's a different kettle of fish altogether.  And I understand that many are offended by it so I try to curb my use.  Sometimes I'm even successful.  But it's hard to know how far you can go with this until you've gone too far.

I'd like to see a thread that contains nothing but the most vile and objectionable phrases, words, jokes and idioms we can come up with just to get it our of the systems of those who need the purge.  The kind of thread that would make the dialogue in Deadwood look like a tea with the Queen.  A sort of "red zone" of filth.  It would help to keep the other threads and rooms more civil while providing hours of enjoyment.
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non-dave

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Re: Cussin' in da Saloon
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2009, 12:38:53 AM »
I think they call that the ladies lounge, A-Train
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Schnerby

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Re: Cussin' in da Saloon
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2009, 01:46:33 AM »
I can't vote on this poll because neither is true for me.

Talking about the 'Holy Fuck' thread - this was a poor choice for a title because it tells us NOTHING about what is in the actual thread.

If you're really building up some steam I have no problems with a bit of venting but vulgarity for no reason is, IMHO, just lazy.

I don't like physical contact with people I don't know. I will tolerate it, but I don't like it. I would never force this on other people just because I liked it. I think we need to show some consideration for the others in our community, and keep the language restrained.