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[adamsmith]

guns - guns are fun - I have lots of them at home. Have i ever commited a crime with them - no. Have i ever killed someonein the commission of a crime - no. Do I think I am civilised -YES. (except for after a bottle of good ole single malt - then i am just a drunken uncivilised boor - but don't care)

Trade Unions = civilised. I sure don't think so. Look around the world at how much violence has happened at the behest of trade unions. Ever see a trade union on strike in Korea - violent. Look at the early days of trade unions in the west - violent.
By many of the arguments about guns - you would think that uncivilised = violence. Therefore I would posture that unions can lead to uncivilisation.(??)

[AMonk]

You know too well you're clinging to values as hoary as slavery......

And slavery is Alive and Well in the world today.  According to a National Geographic article (published about 5 years ago), there is no country where slavery is legal.  However, there are damned few countries where there is no slavery: not excluding US, UK, Australia or Canada.

Is your country civilized?  I'd posit that any country canNOT be "civilized" so long as there is one person being held in involuntary servitude (slavery).

[George]

America Bashing? Perish the thought!!
I know it's chic, trendy and fashionable, but I won't have a bar of it! Truly disgusting habit. You'll never find me doing that kind of thing. Unfortunately, some people are not as nice as me.

http://actionnooz.com/news/?p=987

[Lotus Eater]

CNNN was BRILLIANT!!  Should be required watching for all.

[Escaped Lunatic]

Is your country civilized?  I'd posit that any country canNOT be "civilized" so long as there is one person being held in involuntary servitude (slavery).

So that one sicko keeping his own daughter as a sex slave in his basement rendered his whole nation incapable of being civilized?  And, assuming this was the only case, her escape and freedom can move her whole nation into the potentially civilized category?

I think you overstate the case.  A nation that tolerates slavery is uncivilized.  However, to declare a whole nation uncivilized based on the actions of a few criminals and mentally disturbed individuals pretty much guarantees that no nation will ever meet the standard of being civilized.

[AMonk]

I think you overstate the case. 

Tell that to one of the people still in slavery!! 

So that one sicko keeping his own daughter as a sex slave in his basement rendered his whole nation incapable of being civilized?  And, assuming this was the only case, her escape and freedom can move her whole nation into the potentially civilized category?

Yes.  His entire nation is now culpable.  But she is most definitely NOT the only victim to be found in that country. You might want to check out http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0309/feature1/

.....to declare a whole nation uncivilized based on the actions of a few criminals and mentally disturbed individuals pretty much guarantees that no nation will ever meet the standard of being civilized.

Right.  There is (almost) NO country today which is truly and entirely civilized.  And it was just "a few criminals and mentally disturbed individuals" whose behaviours were primarily responsible initiating WWII.

[Escaped Lunatic]

So, if I were hypothetically successfully reign in ALL the criminals, disturbed psychos, and senior management of Walmart and turned the USA into a perfectly civilized nirvana that lasts for thousands of years, and at some point one bad person slips through the cracks and secretly locks someone up in the basement, the whole nation loses "civilized" status until the captive is freed or dies?  True, it would really suck to be a captive under any circumstances, but I doubt a victim in full possession of the facts would condemn an entire nation for the  actions of a single deranged individual.

On that basis, civilization would require tracking chips to be implanted into every human within the borders of a county as well as police checks on anyone who doesn't fit a minimum movement pattern each day.  It might also require some pretty radical medications and/or brain surgery on individuals who might be predisposed to commit horrific acts who can't be controlled by other means.

Civilization cannot be defined by the worst thing any one person could do.  If it is, then civilization itself would remove all freedoms from all individuals - thus everyone becomes total slaves to the government in order to prevent the chance of one individual committing a horrific act.

If that's the case, I'll stay in a barbaric country and take my chances.

[AMonk]

EL, you know that I love you, don't you? 

But your hypothetical theory is a stretch that would make slaves of everyone.

It is my belief that NO country can really claim to be entirely civilized.  They can strive for it, Yes.  And that is good.  We want that.  But not one has reached it, yet.  We are all still somewhere on the continuum line between Totally Barbaric and Perfectly Civilized.   And our relative positions on the continuum alter from day to day, depending upon our actions (both as individuals and as nations).

[Lotus Eater]

For me civilisation is the checks and balances we put in place to control the worst excesses.  This does not mean every person behaves totally ethically all of the time - but that unethical behaviour is NOT condoned, that when discovered it WILL be dealt with appropriately.

It was developed BECAUSE people are basically ego-centric. 

(And here I thought you were advocating the end of marriage! )

[contemporarydog]

I like the cut of LE's jib.  Civilisation is entirely about checks and balances.  To some extent, for instance, the UK went too far into Trade Unionism in the 70s, and the dead weren't being buried, rubbish was piled up in the streets.  While Thatcher probably went too far the other way, and I'm far from a fan of her, something had to be done to curb the excesses of the Unions. 

But what's good about the west is that we get time to object.  One of the things that leaves me cold the most about China, by turn, is that we don't.  The government wants to do something, it just does it, no matter whose quality of life is trampled by that fact.

[GwaiLower]

CIVILIZED!!!??? Why i would I want to be or want to come from a place that is considered civilized?

You know if the Chinese actually considered the US Civilized it would probably cost me about half of my bad boy image and then the girls might actually chase my Canadian coworker almost as much as me.  I cant handle that kind of competition.  I need all the attention for my self. (of course hes not blond and devestatingly cute... and hes old as Methusela, like 50! so I guess Id still be OK)

I'm just not ready to beach my long ship and quit raiding, or park my motorcycle and quit hell raisin or lock up my gunz and quit my bangin, my invading sovereign nations, my corporate plundering, etc etc...

[Escaped Lunatic]

Love ya too Amonk!   

I just see that there's no way to achieve a "perfect" civilization without some pretty radical methods of controlling imperfect humans.  In a perfect civilization, everyone would be completely safe from uncivilized behavior all the time.

I did read a fascinating Sci-Fi short story on how to achieve this.  Jack Williamson's With Folded Hands.  Tells all about what happens when robots are instructed to serve and protect us from all harm.
 

Let's all strive to be a bit more civilized, but maybe not quite that civilized. 

[Eagle]

Is Canada civilized?  I don't know the answer to that.  Truth is, no country is civilized.  Individuals may or may not be civilized.  Who sets the criteria?  Since there are multiple different perspectives on the topic because of multiple different personalities with multiple different needs, there is no hope of establishing such criteria.
 
I used to own guns, four of them, as I used to hunt and eat the meat of my hunt - civilized behaviour or rustic pioneer behaviour?  I gave them away to my offspring so that they could hunt.  Civilized behaviour or aiding and abetting the prolifferation of weapons.

Canada has Loreena McKennit and a host of other songsters - I guess this could make us civilized.  But what about all those who sing who are more about creating noise and attitude?

In my opinion, the word civilized should be stricken from the English language.

[ericthered]

Well, Eagle, I'm sure you mean big rifle things, right? Hunting has and is a necessity. Hunters and gatherers, that's what we were before we decided to destroy the planet.
'Civilized' is like 'bad' or 'normal' or 'beautiful', all concepts that groups can discuss til the cows come home and tells everyone to shove it, but you'll never reach a conclusion that satisfies everyone.

[Calach Pfeffer]

The original question isn't all that hard, surely.  Taken together with its 25 parts it means:

"Does your country host a society that has reached the heights to which any western (socialist) democracy may aspire?"

You'll notice many of the sub-questions refer to institutions and schemes founded on philosophies of pluralism and individual rights.

Societies, like cultures, can be judged.  Do their institutions accord with their values?  Do their values accord with the nature of the beast the societies house?  But more importantly, are those societies adequate compromises between the nature of the beast housed and the requirement that more than one beast be housed?

Go nuts.