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[gonzo]

Now, the job that someone else mentioned...16,000 for 12 hours - now that is a good income.

I think the one thing that would solve a lot of our problems is unionisation - getting an ESOL teachers' union...but the logistics of organising it are mind-boggling.

Before you can establish unions, your potential membership must at least have some professional standard. "English Speaker" I don't think is enough.
And BTW, do you know what happens to Chinese teachers [or workers of any ilk] who talk "union"? Rather nasty accidents, such as with the Hunan teacher trying to recoup unpaid wages for his colleagues. A truck hit and run, the police said. Others thought it was a shotgun blast.
As for the nice 16k job, it, and others like it, will never be on a TEFL website. It will be advertised to a chosen few who belong to an old boys club, because it demands a teacher from a particular home-country system, who is experienced in a particular course that will fast track fortunate and wealthy Chinese students into a Western university.
This is the rapidly developing top end of high school education in the PRC. Western matriculation courses taught in Chinese private schools by those with considerable experience in that particular course. And personally, I'll be pushing for more than 16k.

[decurso]

 Perhaps "sub standard" is not the best choice of words when indeed most of the advertised jobs are in the 4000-4500 range. "Low" and "unfair" are better adjectives.

I don't know if I agree that we all are worth more - there are, I think, an awful lot of people who come here, or are passing through, and their only qualification is that they can speak English.

 I couldn't agree more. By "we" I meant the people on this forum. I just learned one of my colleagues is about to receive her second written reprimand . The headmaster told my wife she(the teacher in question...not my wife) is the worst teacher he has seen in 40 years in the education business. Yet she still has a job...for now anyway.

 But this just illustrates how the low wages not only do a diservice to teachers here but to the schools themselves. Too often they are simply willing to settle for a white face from a native speaking country simply because good teachers can do better than the crap salaries they are offering.If every FT who had no business being in the education profession were rounded up and shipped out wages would likley go up and both schools and teachers would benefit.

I know, and congratulations - it sounds like a good job, 8000RMB for 16hours in Beijing.
But do you think you could have found this job from outside of China? Do you think for a 'newbie' coming to China they would have been able to hunt out this job? People are getting criticised for accepting jobs at around the 4,000RMB mark whilst living outside of China. I think from abroad it is far harder to job-hunt, especially for thsoe who have never been here.

 Could I have? Absolutley. Would I have known how to go about it without investing more effort into researching the job market than surfing job ads at the Spoon and talking to recruiters? No.. but that would be my own fault for not making the effort. There are plenty of resources out there both on the internet and in print to help people in their ESL job search.

[moon over parma]

I don't for one second buy the argument that the fact that Chinese teachers earn substandard wages makes our low salaries OK. One has nothing to do with the other and two wongs wrongs don't make a right. And really...let's look at the facts.

The "facts" were snipped, but I easily agree with most of them (and see possible truth in the ones I haven't witnessed first hand). It's bad relativism for anyone to justify foreign wages as good based on what locals get; especially when your rights to change jobs on a whim, organize, defend your position and the protection under law - PLUS - sacrificing your ties to family, friends and culture, the travel, and the the hazzards justify higher wages.

There's a reason the pay is higher.

To justify low wages under the premise of local relativism - while noble - is a bit of bunk.

Unless the foreign teachers have the same freedoms as the locals in regards to being able to up and leave and start anew at any time and not have to worry about visas being canceled, etc. - then from that foundation down there's no justifiable comparison of local vs. foreign salaries in my opinion.

Now, to look at what Decurso and Gonzo are talking about:

Again, 4-4.5 is average. 90% or more of the jobs offer it for 12-16 hours of work. Gonzo, if you want to complain about better pay being out there and accepting 4-4.5 for 12-16 hours is selling other foreigners out, but aren't willing to dole out the info on the "adequate" paying jobs then you're not contributing to rectifying the injustices you claim to see.

Decurso: the same applies.

If you're unwilling to help lead others into justice, and thus further achieve your noble goals - then are you not just letting the problem you see in the business continue to exist as well?

You can egg on others, but unless you lead them on the “right” track, your noble cause won't go far because the status quo is 4-4.5 for 12-16 hours, and frankly, most people can live comfortable off of that – and will gladly do so as they establish their life within China and are able to find those supposed 6k gigs that offer the same perks and low hours but greater pay.

Sure, you could come in and claim "it's not my job/responsibility to do that," etc, but if you want others to fight the power there has to be solidarity, and if you're not willing to give to your own cause, then it's the same as keeping the status quo like the cheapskates you're claiming hold down a decent pay scale.


"United we stand. Divided we fall," but if you want people to see "the light" of what you're saying, bragging about 8K jobs and  then throwing back “well I'm not going to tell you” does not empower others nor does it bring them to your cause and only continues to grease the wheels that keep the faulty motor running, and renders your arguments pretty moot.

And to answer a question Decurso poised; I found many, many jobs through ads in my lifetime. Some paid well. Of course, they were not in my current geographic hell hole.


I'm looking out for #1 as well, comrades, but if I see a good gig, good hours, adequate pay in a good place and it doesn't meet that rare 5-6K minimum start for 12-16 hours of work I'm still going to take it, and I'm selling no one out; especially considering 16 hours a week for 4.5 RMB a month is more than minimum wage at 16 hours a week for a month provides in my own country; without the benefits of cheap medical, free housing, pay during vacation - let alone any vacation time at all, etc.

[AMonk]

I don't recall advocating that we should be accepting lower wages or lousy working conditions.  I believe that I indicated that when we do, we "buy into" the Bosses' attitudes towards teachers, and perpetuate the situation, not only for ourselves, but also for our Local colleagues.  If we are willing to undervalue our services and ourselves, the Bosses will happily continue to let us.  The Chinese teachers should be making more than they do, but we should not be accepting less.  






Ban the Backpackers!

[moon over parma]

  The Chinese teachers should be making more than they do, but we should not be accepting less.

and

Ban the Backpackers!

I agree!

and

I moterf@#king hate backpackers.

[decurso]

 Moony I think I did  offer some information on where the good jobs are to be found. Maybe "networking, research and legwork" was a bit general but these concepts are pretty universal and can be applied to any profession.

 Simply by being here at the Saloon you are networking. If you simply ask people to share experiences they've had in good schools I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to provide you with contact info for quality institutions...myself included. During my latest job search three forum members PM'd me with information on some very good unadvertised positions.

 Our partner site Nate's China School Review has a number of reviews of some seemingly good positions. A really good place to start IMO.

 Posting your resume on a few ESL sites will get you about 30 offers in less than a couple weeks. A lot will be from recruiters and most will be crap but there will probably be a diamond or two in the rough. I got a really decent offer from a school in Hangzhou(5500 for 16 hours)this way.

  Wikipedia contains a comprehensive list of Universities in Beijing along with links to their web pages. Not sure about other cities but it's worth looking into if you are considering a University job. This is actually how I first stumbled onto the school I will be working for next month. A simple google search along the lines of "(insert city name here) University " will also yield a high number of hits that will take you right to their home pages.

 There are several books devoted to teaching English abroad that contain a variety of contact info for schools around the world. Most of these schools never advertise because they don't need to. Any TEFL course worth a damn should provide you with a booklet containing contact info for reputable institutions.

 I'm not hording information. Nobody asked.

[moon over parma]

 Simply by being here at the Saloon you are networking. If you simply ask people to share experiences they've had in good schools I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to provide you with contact info for quality institutions...myself included.

That's certainly the hope! Right now I'm just getting things in gear (5$$ worth of immunizations, waiting for the new passport, taking care of things like doling out personal belongings I no longer want to keep in storage because I no longer need them, arranging for what's left to be stored, etc.) and researching. I reached a crossrods in life and realized that my career is in teching English abroad. It's the onl line of work I've been able to perform well in outside of my field of expertise (multimedia production) and have always been able to land on my feet with (unlike multimedia production, where stable, well-paying work coems and goes like the tides of any great sea) while applying my skills for personal use (again: multimedia production). It's the means to an end for me and I'm finally comfortable with that.

Anyway, the saloon has been an incredible resource, and folks have stepped up to the plate about positions (Lotus Eater and Dragon Saver mentioned their schools in threads). When I have things settled on my end I'm certain I can get more feedback here. Unlike a certain cafe.....

Our partner site Nate's China School Review has a number of reviews of some seemingly good positions. A really good place to start IMO.

It's a reference, that's for sure. More for gagign what prospects one has.

 

Posting your resume on a few ESL sites will get you about 30 offers in less than a couple weeks.

I don't like posting my resume or photo or any serious personal info on the internet. A family member has suffered from identity theft and it's soured me towards doing such things. However, I have set up a few vague accounts with the important stats (only listing education and nationality)  and without much effort some institutions contacted me. One of them had an acceptable offer, but it was an offer for a summer start: not possible. I did ask about the possibility of openings for the next semester.

Not bad, considering I wasn't really trying to find anything. Just researching, really, but needed an account to get specs. No 5-6K offers though.

[Raoul F. Duke]

I will add that I too have personally seen/known of uni gigs (real unis, not horrible monster "foundation programs" or some such) offering 6K per month.
They certainly aren't the mainstream, and they may not be common, but they ARE out there. I can't cite a link off the top of my head, and I don't really feel inclined to shag over and hunt one up, but I will definitely attest to having seen them directly myself.

[gonzo]

If I wanted an 8k job, I'd go back to the uni I worked at in Shanghai. It was easy work, I was well looked after, and side work was there for the picking. I recruited extensively for them before I left, and found 5 qualifieed [ie, Masters in Ed or TESOL] people I either knew personally, or had dealt with extensively via email and phone. The three who were already in China came for interviews. But I'm not sending people I don't know there, as saying that I sent you [not you personally, MOP] would sound like a recommendation, which I'm not in a position to give.

Here's an example of the legwork you can do easily.
The China TEFL [Hangzhou Helen] site contains the best and worst. EF, Yang En, if you've heard of those. People often complain about the recruiting morality of the company , but search through their trash and treasure, and you might come up with something
http://www.chinatefl.com/teach.html
I thought Behai College of Beihang University, which offers 2000 pm plus 80 rmb per class hour looked interesting. And that's just one. I bet I could find ten universities paying 6k plus within 20 minutes searching! But I'm not going to, and I'd only look at working for minimum 10 anyway. Call me fussy, but I guess I can afford to be.

[decurso]

Beihang University is where I am headed and they do seem to be a first rate institution. Peking University is also offering similar working conditions and I have a friend in Dongguan who was offered a position at Guandong Normal University  for 15 k.

[icebear]

Just my quick bit on Uni pay - I've just been offered 7,500/month from one in Beijing. I know the higher cost of living is what justifies the higher than average pay (in China, not Beijing); I'm just providing an example that it is more than possible.

And while the job offers lower pay (by about 2,000) than most BJ jobs, it also has comparatively low hours and obligations and no non-sense when it comes to visas/residence permits. I'm strongly considering taking it and working a few hours a week tutoring on the side if my income needs a boost.

[Raoul F. Duke]

I have a friend in Dongguan who was offered a position at Guandong Normal University  for 15k.

Wumba! I've seen a few mainstream uni jobs in the 6-8K range, but never anything this high. Are you sure this one isn't a "Joint Venture Uni" or "foundation program" or other dodgy Lifestyle of the Rich and Stupid?

[gonzo]

Hey Raoul, I know the particular UTS "joint venture" program you worked in sucked at the Jiading end of the assembly line, but my inspection of the Shanghai U setup looked good. I only turned it down because it didn't offer better than I already had, and my wife would have had to leave her job. Don't scare people off these, as there's a few around.
Each job on its merits folks.

[Raoul F. Duke]

Wasn't just Jiading, Gone...and Jiading IS Shanghai University.
The JV school I worked at was SILC, which ostensibly stood for "Sydney Institute of Language and Commerce" but was often rendered "Should I Leave China?" or "Sure, I LOVE Corruption!" or "Sadly, It Lacks Credibility."

ShangDa had 3 campuses- Jiading, Zhabei, and Baoshan (I think), and when I worked there SILC had programs at all 3 places.

All three were (and apparently still are) whorehouses of Biblical proportions. The business side was simply an open marketplace for grades and diplomas. The foundation school side (based in Zhabei, but we called it "Loserville") was even worse. The English side teachers didn't have grade integrity to worry about, but they still had a massive and constant turnover of teachers. Something about "Blackboard Jungle"-type classroom conditions, and having 300 writing papers per day to grade.

ALL schools manage to look  good. Looks can be really deceiving...

My bad taste from foundation/JV schools doesn't come purely from SILC. Suzhou University has a whole string of them, dug in like ticks in a bird dog's ear. They're all the same shit with different flies on it.
The only semi-legit one I ever saw was one called GAC, which was nationwide...and even they may have been beginning to succumb to the greed of the local owners.

[decurso]

I have a friend in Dongguan who was offered a position at Guandong Normal University  for 15k.

Wumba! I've seen a few mainstream uni jobs in the 6-8K range, but never anything this high. Are you sure this one isn't a "Joint Venture Uni" or "foundation program" or other dodgy Lifestyle of the Rich and Stupid?

 Apparently it was a DOS position. However he did tell me a number of Universities in Guandong are offering salaries in the 10k range for straight teaching. I believe Sun Yat Sen University was mentioned.