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[moon over parma]

For all the talk of Uni gigs paying over 4.5 as a starting salary I've yet to see a link to any resource backing this up. Sure, there are some offers out thre, but I've seen little that proves starting salary above 4.5 for 12-16 hours to be the norm; directly from a university, via the recruiters, etc. I don't accept the whole, "well you have to find that yourself, nobody's going to just walk up and give you their secret go-to gravy train resources." I mean, if some of us are wrong we're happy to be proven wrong.

Again, attacking the 4-4.5 sters appers completely unfair, especially when there are way too many jobs offering far less for far more work (uni). There is no excuse for a uni gig below 4 thosuand RMB as a starting salary, and yet I've seen a few 2.5-3.8 offers that I wouldn't even consider. Still, there's a shocking number offering this pittance (not the norm, but still, far too many imo), even from their own Uni page.

[moon over parma]

Another point to consider.....the native Chinese get paid way less than the FTs.  This inequality in pay/work conditions is not an uncommon happenstance all around the world - Native vs Foreigner.

Often, the Local Folk get irritated and upset by the higher salaries and perks given to the outsiders (who are not necessarily any better qualified or more experienced than the Natives! _{and may even be in need of training by the Local staffer}) will rebel/remonstrate/demonstrate/take (union) action to correct the situation.

When the "natives" sacrifice all of their familial and friend ties, and put themselves at sometimes great physical risk (and let's face it, China is far more dangerous in innocuous ways than some of our countries. Oh, sure we may have higher reported crime rates, but I rarely hear of FTs killed through crime. Accidents and suicide nad contruction mishaps and disease are far more common). I see it as hazzard pay. Furthermore, we do not have even the slightest chance of career mobility that locals could have. Any job can end at any moment nad we can find ourselves on a short end of the stick and forced to leave the country, pronto. Locals clearly don't have that.

Then there's visa runs, being poked and prodded for visas, etc.

It is an economy of commodity, and frankly, I've never bought into the "unfair" bit when it's locals vs. guest, regardless of nation.

There's a point where the ceiling lays low for us in this business.

[Vegemite]

Good paying jobs are not as hard to come by as you think. Even here(where a middle school salary is 3900) it is possible to make 6-10,000 if you you are willing to put in 30-40 hours a week.

This job I would run a mile from because in my eyes that's incredibly low-pay. When I look at the wage I look at the total packet - hours worked for income received. Working a 16 hour week for 4500RMB sounds a lot better than working a 30-40 hour week for 6-10,000.
But I wouldn't even work a 32hour week on my current wage...I would also consider that too low, that would be 9000RMB per month.
I am here 'cos I wanted to live in a certain part of China and I wanted to work minimal hours. There is only one university in this part of China so I was really limited in my selection of work places ...when I return I will definately do my best to negotiate a higher wage but why I leapt to defend my 4500RMB for 16 hours week is that Raoul made a blanket statement along the lines that living on 4500RMB means a minimal lifestyle. Up here, and I assume in many other parts of China, it doesn't mean a minimal lifestyle.

It seems as long as the majority of FTs, even those with decent quals and experience, rationalise along the lines of "I've got more disposable income here than back home" [which was squat: be honest], I guess you're right.

I have fought tooth and nail at home to get what should be a fair living wage...but up here, I honestly believe that I do have a good wage.

PS. What's a Q and E?

[Vegemite]

Another point to consider.....the native Chinese get paid way less than the FTs.  This inequality in pay/work conditions is not an uncommon happenstance all around the world - Native vs Foreigner.

Often, the Local Folk get irritated and upset by the higher salaries and perks given to the outsiders (who are not necessarily any better qualified or more experienced than the Natives! _{and may even be in need of training by the Local staffer}) will rebel/remonstrate/demonstrate/take (union) action to correct the situation.  And the salaries paid will become more equal.....higher for the Locals....and the working conditions will likewise get better for Natives.  Trust me on this one.  I have seen/experienced it here.

Think about it this way.....If, as FTs, we accept the pay/work conditions, we are actually re-inforcing the Bosses' attitudes and we are - in the long run - doing a grave DISservice to the Chinese teachers!!

Up here Amonk, our work colleagues get 800RMB per month, we get 4500RMB. I wish that they were on par with us...

[AMonk]

Vege.....do your colleagues also get Housing (with utilities paid for), Airline tickets to go home, vacation travel allowances and 16 class-hours a week? 

[gonzo]

I got sick of typing "qualifications and experience". Q and E can join FT and FAO as common acronyms!
This nonsensical view that [say] my 6 years of teacher and TESOL training, and 30 plus years of teaching, the last 10 in ESL, are not worth considerably more than those with none of these does not hold water.
And while I could tell people where I'll get 16,000 for 12 hours should I come back to China, I won't. Not out of bastardry, not because I think you'll pinch the job [because nobody here, or on daves, has the relevant Q and E], but because there's no point.
8,000 was the standard where I worked in Shanghai, and I started on that early 2002. The same place is now paying less! Most of you are getting screwed, yet are convincing yourselves you are involved in wild, passionate lovemaking!

[moon over parma]

PS. What's a Q and E?

Qualifications and experience? Just a shot in the dark on that.

I agree with your point about 16 hours for 4.5 being prefrable to 30 for 6. When you think about it, you're not getting your total value for time work, which should at least be 8000 RMB or higher.

[moon over parma]

And while I could tell people where I'll get 16,000 for 12 hours should I come back to China, I won't.

  That doesn't help bolster your point.

[Vegemite]

Vege.....do your colleagues also get Housing (with utilities paid for), Airline tickets to go home, vacation travel allowances and 16 class-hours a week? 

Housing - nope, except for one of the big bosses in our department who gets housing provided next to campus so he doesn't have to go home for his afternoon nap every day!

Airlines tickets - nope

Vacation travel allowances - nope, one of them actually had a chance to go to Mongolia which meant missing three days of school. The school refused to let her go.

16 class-hours a week - nope, they actually get less than 16 but they do a lot more of the extra things that us laowei aren't asked or expected to do.

I was appalled when I discovered how minimal their wages were. It really is unfair that a foreigner can come in and get so much more than them.

[gonzo]

And while I could tell people where I'll get 16,000 for 12 hours should I come back to China, I won't.

  That doesn't help bolster your point.

I have a point? Only that the FT community continues to devalue and undermine itself.

[AMonk]

Yep, Vege.  Total isn't it!?!  The INequality is glaringly obvious....at least to an impartial (outside) observer.  

[decurso]

Another point to consider.....the native Chinese get paid way less than the FTs.  This inequality in pay/work conditions is not an uncommon happenstance all around the world - Native vs Foreigner.

I don't for one second buy the argument that the fact that Chinese teachers earn substandard wages makes our low salaries OK. One has nothing to do with the other and two wongs wrongs don't make a right. And really...let's look at the facts.

1.A Chinese teacher can walk off the job at 11:15 and be replaced by by 11:20. I have literally seen it happen. If foreign teachers are a dime a dozen here then Chinese teachers are a fen a dozen.

2.Most Chinese English teachers are long way from fluency. What clients/students are paying for is lessons from a fluent native speaker.

3.Even if they are fluent , Chinese English teachers generate no extra income for their employers.

4.Because of the above points wages will always be lower for Chinese teachers than foreign teachers. The fact is most of us could be earning 30-50 K USD a year in our home countries(and some a lot more). If the wages for foreign teachers were the same as Chinese teachers only the most die hard of do-gooders would come here.

Again, attacking the 4-4.5 sters appers completely unfair, especially when there are way too many jobs offering far less for far more work (uni). There is no excuse for a uni gig below 4 thosuand RMB as a starting salary, and yet I've seen a few 2.5-3.8 offers that I wouldn't even consider. Still, there's a shocking number offering this pittance (not the norm, but still, far too many imo), even from their own Uni page.

 Ask yourself this. How many jobs in America have you gotten thourgh ads ? Me (in Canada)...absolutley zero. It's the same here. GOOD JOBS DON'T NEED TO ADVERTISE! They have too many people lining up to take them.

I have a point? Only that the FT community continues to devalue and undermine itself.

 Amen brother. During my latest job search I was disheartened by how dismal the job scene has gotten in Beijing. A vast majority of jobs were offering 3500-5500 in a city where anything less than 6000 is a slap in the face. The reason is that too many transients are looking for a way to finance their "China Adventure" and don't give a damn if their bosses are laughing behind their back at their gullibility and wondering if they can offer less next year. At this rate the only positions available in a few years time will be volunteer.

 Now  before anyone rushes to villify me for criticizing the 4000 K-ers...I am one of you. AND I came here through a recruiter. The same one Nolefan used and I agree that they're a good group. I actually turned down the first job they had lined up for me and when I developed (fairly trivial)issues with the job I did take they offered to pull me out and find me a new position. The problem is they just don't have the ability to place you with the best jobs. The only person who can do that is you. Decent jobs...yes. But as Raoul said you could the same job without them and possibly even negotiate a higher salary.

 For the last two years I have made 4000 a month for 18 hours a week during public school season and about 12 during the summer. I send 25 per cent of my pay home and (in pre-baby days) still had enough money to travel every month, go out every night and keep well stocked in DVDS and toys. I also don't have any savings to fall back on and don't moonlight. However I have come to see that just because I can live well off it doesn't make it OK. People are getting filthy rich off my hard work  and I am seeing jack shit by comparison. I am worth more. We all are.

 I have made a decision to quit enabling increasingly low salaries  just because it's "good by local standards". I have a new job starting pretty soon and while it took 3 months to find it was worth it.

 I understand that nobody comes here for the money. But by accepting jobs with substandard pays we are continuing to encourage a process that makes things harder for people who depend on Chinese teaching jobs for their living.

[Raoul F. Duke]

Nobody's attacking anyone here, Moon. Really.

Right on, Decurso.
I maybe question the SIZE of the disparity sometimes, but by and large we SHOULD get paid more than Chinese teachers of our language. We are the native speakers and the scarce commodity.

And as Decurso pointed out, our Engish is often better than that of our Chinese colleagues.

I don't really think our salaries are resented all that much. I think many of the Chinese don't really begrudge the fact that our salaries are so high, but rather that theirs are so low. And I do join them on this one.

Besides, any unfairness we get is peanuts compared to the money and perks that upper-class, well-connected Chinese get. We're good guys by comparison. Unfairness is a cherished way of life in China.

[gonzo]

Decurso is spot on.
Ask your uni students how much extra their parents are paying for the privilege of having a native speaking English teacher. Then multiply that by the number of students you teach to see how much income you generate. My calculation was that I earned my place around 300,000 rmb a year, of which I got less than a third - bear in mind I was on a base of 8,000 also. And we had 8 FTs, so its big bucks. Throw in the free TV ads you've done, the enrolment fairs you've appeared at. What keeps you working for 4,500 is the fear that, should you push for more, they'll give you the flick and hire a cheaper white face. How good you are at your job is not a factor in financial decision making.

[Vegemite]

I don't for one second buy the argument that the fact that Chinese teachers earn substandard wages makes our low salaries OK. One has nothing to do with the other and two wongs wrongs don't make a right.

I don't think anybody said this, some of us think that it is unfair that we earn so much more than a local teacher. The disparity is too great - their wages are too low, not that ours are too high or even that their low wages makes ours OK.

However I have come to see that just because I can live well off it doesn't make it OK. People are getting filthy rich off my hard work  and I am seeing jack shit by comparison. I am worth more. We all are.

I don't know if I agree that we all are worth more - there are, I think, an awful lot of people who come here, or are passing through, and their only qualification is that they can speak English. As long as they're passing through many schools will snap them up at lower wages and expect us to accept the same. That's why wages keep falling...there are even universities out there now offering 3000RMB per month - now that's a low wage. I agree totally that we should not accept a wage at that level. All university teachers are worth more - there should be a flat starting rate. We need to weed out those universities that offer anything less than 4500 for 16 hours.

People might be getting filthy rich off my 4500RMB for 16 hours but I'm also getting rich. I can save money here, I could not do that back home. The wrong here, I believe, is those who are getting filthy rich of our backs...the huge income disparities that exist in this country are wrong. When I want to start my own little nest egg I will teach at an International School or for one of the oil companies in the Middle East - 30,000pounds there for three months work.
Here, I am not passing through. I like China, I want to make it my home in the longterm. I don't want to become part of the problem which I can see too easily developing in a country where there are huge income disparities.

I have a new job starting pretty soon and while it took 3 months to find it was worth it.

I know, and congratulations - it sounds like a good job, 8000RMB for 16hours in Beijing.
But do you think you could have found this job from outside of China? Do you think for a 'newbie' coming to China they would have been able to hunt out this job? People are getting criticised for accepting jobs at around the 4,000RMB mark whilst living outside of China. I think from abroad it is far harder to job-hunt, especially for thsoe who have never been here.

I understand that nobody comes here for the money. But by accepting jobs with substandard pays we are continuing to encourage a process that makes things harder for people who depend on Chinese teaching jobs for their living.

But what is substandard pay? I think (and trying not to sound like a broken record) my 4500RMB for 16 hours a week in a small city is not substandard.
Someone yesterday said 6 -10,000RMB for 30 to 40 hours is not substandard - I think that's terribly substandard.
Raoul posted a job on here a wee while ago, it was something like 8000RMB for a full week. I think that's substandard.

I look at the whole packet - hours worked for money earned. I don't just look at the pay packet. In my country I had to get stuck into a rut of work, work just to earn a living income - here I can work for far less hours and get a living income. I don't want to work a full week here.

Now, the job that someone else mentioned...16,000 for 12 hours - now that is a good income.

I think the one thing that would solve a lot of our problems is unionisation - getting an ESOL teachers' union...but the logistics of organising it are mind-boggling.