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May 19, 2013, 03:45:36 AM
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Author Topic: Angelina's, and Raoul's Recruiter Rant  (Read 19402 times)
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Raoul F. Duke
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« on: May 07, 2007, 10:30:06 AM »

In response to my advising of caution when taking an Angelina's job, Kcanuck wrote:

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Raoul, darling I know you don't like Angelina's but being that I am in an Angelina's job, I thought I should say something.
I earn 4500RMB/month for 16 hrs. a week, no English corners, no having to judge anything unless I want to; there is an 8,000RMB contract completion bonus and school supplied computers in our apt. From what I'm finding in the small-medium cities, public schools (advertising without recruiters) the salary and conditions offered are quite similar to what I negotiated through Angelina's.  Best bet is to do as much research as possible and talk to the FTs, in my case, Vegemite was already here and I had a good idea of what I could expect.

Angelina's is one of my more highly esteemed recruiters, but this is admittedly a bit like standing before a sewage treatment pit and saying that one particular turd smells slightly better than the others.

IMHO 4500 per month for 16 hours in a small obscure city is a pretty ho-hum job. However, a lot of people take jobs like this (which, of course, is why schools continue to get away with offering 4500 per month for 16 hours a week...) and are reasonably satisfied.

Fair enough. If you're happy with this, my biggest issue is that I can't see any reason to bring in a middleman who may or may not come back and bite you later, to take a job just like millions of others hanging out there all over the internet begging to be taken. Without Angelina's hand in your pocket, this job may well have paid 5000 per month or more.

There are hundreds (at least!) of sites that advertise EFL jobs in China and elsewhere. It's quite easy to find them. A great many of them are free to advertise on; it's not really necessary to contribute to the Bad Haircuts For Dave Sperling Fund just to market a teaching job. What does it say about a school and their job if they're too lazy/feeble-minded/afraid of their karma/ashamed of their crappy pay/worried about the dismal town they live in/etc. to find some and post an ad, and must instead turn to places like Angelina's to pull you in, do their dirty work for them, and tell you how wonderful it will be there? Personally, I just can't think of a good spin to put on this. Not one that holds water, anyway.

As you can tell, I really hate recruiters.  th_as They exploit the numerous faults of a system that really shouldn't need them in the first place. In my years in China, I've heard about as many complaints about recruiters as I have about the schools themselves. At their best, IMHO recruiters are like giant ticks, feasting on the lifeblood of our business. At their worst, they're like giant ticks who pass you various horrible diseases while feasting on the lifeblood of our business. Recruiters may kiss your ass while they're courting you for a job, but don't be fooled: they don't work for us. None of them. They work for the schools that pay their commissions, and their loyalties will always ultimately lie with them. The schools themselves are dodgy enough; there's no need to add on this extra layer of potential problems.

The fundamentals of running a school aren't that different than any other business, or at least they shouldn't be. If you want to hire employees, you market your position and you offer the potential employees a competitive wage/benefit package and a decent work experience. If you don't want to do this, you should find another line of business more compatible with your ethics and profit-margin ambitions...like selling heroin in primary school yards.

I understand that many public schools and universities must pay salaries that are heavily controlled by the local Education Bureaus. However, I can't see where this entails any obligation on our part to accept it. If these schools go long enough and are unable to find teachers to fill their classes, the Bureaus will have no choice but to change their policies. This will be a good thing for us.

Saying "Well, I got a job through Recruiter X, and I'm happy enough!" is IMHO not an adequate defense of the system. It may mean very well indeed, but it simply perpetuates a system that is devoid of any standards of any kind, pays us marginal salaries, treats us as rights-less chattel, and makes vast piles of money for a lot of corrupt, incompetent, baijiu-swilling buttheads at the expense of our time and effort and intelligence.

I PROMISE you...if all of us will stand up and tell the recruiters to f*ck off and crawl back under their respective rocks, the schools WILL find a way to reach us directly, toot sweet. Hey, they might even re-think their salaries and benefits in the process. If all of us stop taking just-barely salaries and demand some parity for our work, they WILL have to re-think their salaries and benefits.

Of course, if this happens a lot of fly-by-night operators and crooked officials would have to get out of the alleged-education business and leave it to those schools who maintain real standards, hire real teachers, and pay real wages. And that would be just awful, wouldn't it?

Sadly, I don't really expect this to ever happen, not in China. There's a laowai teacher born every minute.
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« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2007, 10:53:36 AM »

Vegemite came here without a recruiter and we both got the same contract.
All Angelina's did for me was introduce me to the school, the negotiations were done directly between myself and the college.
I'm currently looking in Qingdao and Dalian (big by my standards) and from what I can see 4500RMB - 5000RMB (at the college and uni level) is the norm.  I would venture that there are a few saloonies who are sitting in this income bracket.  I agree that there is room for improvement but my time here is limited but I have neither the seniority nor the time to hold out for better. I'll settle for a decent contract and good working conditions and I'm truly sorry if that messes it up for those here for the long haul but I really don't see that there are many other options. 
I am currently searching non-recruiter sites.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2007, 12:43:58 PM by kcanuck » Logged

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Raoul F. Duke
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« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2007, 11:11:51 AM »

Dear, I'm not trying to make you or anyone else feel bad. Not my intention.

I simply want to point up the numerous and horrible abuses people face when seeking work here. I want to let people know that they really CAN do better, and that they can do so without cutting in someone else. And if we all insist on better, we can eventually get it.

If you're happy with the deal and treatment you receive, I'm basically happy for you. But if I can see you EVEN HAPPIER with these things, well, then... th_ax
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"Vicodin and dumplings...it's a great combination!" (Anthony Bourdain, in Harbin)

"Here in China we aren't just teaching...
we're building the corrupt, incompetent, baijiu-swilling buttheads of tomorrow!" (Raoul F. Duke)
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« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2007, 12:23:06 PM »

This is one point I disagree with Raoul about as well.

My wife and I both came using the services of a recruiter that helped us quite a bit down the stretch and if we were to do it again, we would not change a thing. The problem more often than not is not with the recruiters when they just help you through getting a contract and you have no direct link to them other than the occasional "hello" or "I need a little hand". I would venture to say that most recruiters have a problem with the people they sign a contract with directly and then farm out somewhere else.

The way I look  at things, a recruiter saves you the time and the hassle of dealing with the small inconveniences when you first arrive in China (at least the GOOD recruiters do).
You get:
- free pick up from the airport
- a place to crash for a few days while getting over the jet-lag
- a choice to say M'ckay it and move on if you're not happy

I think the problems happen when people stop exercising common sense and in the majority of the gripes against legitimate recruitors, the teachers themselves had part of the blame to share.
Also, there is almost never a separation between a company's recruiting practices and their sub-contracting practices... there should be! some companies are great for placement ( like the one I used when I came and I worked with for a while) but beyond shitty if you actually sign a contract with them...
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Raoul F. Duke
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« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2007, 12:49:59 PM »

It is indeed, but we get on anyway.  th_ag

My reply is always the same... yes, there may actually be one or two decent recruiters working in China. The sewer may have a rose or two floating in it...

However, the purported good ones are so overwhelmingly outnumbered by the weasels that IMHO it just isn't worth taking the risk. Even for a ride in from the airport.  th_u

It's just so hard to tell, even with experience accounts from others. A weasel recruiter CAN put you in an upfront school, if you're lucky...but they'll be just as happy to put you in a dodgy one; it's all the same to them. Ergo: one happy teacher, one teacher with rectal bleeding...all from the same recruiter. And that promise of a "choice to say M'kay it and move on if you're not happy" is definitely not universally fulfilled when really tested in the field...far from it. The architectural term for what most seem to end up with in such an event is "stucco".

And I'm supposed to endorse this (or at least tolerate it) as a good way to find a job?  th_bi

The number of good recruiters in China is mathematically the same number as the population of the universe: zero. Too few in too big a space to register. IMHO there may well be a couple of gold coins in that big bag of angry green mambas, but if you actually reach your hand in there to find out, the odds of getting snakebit are just too high to be worth taking the risk.

Get on the computer and find the job yourself!
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"Vicodin and dumplings...it's a great combination!" (Anthony Bourdain, in Harbin)

"Here in China we aren't just teaching...
we're building the corrupt, incompetent, baijiu-swilling buttheads of tomorrow!" (Raoul F. Duke)
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« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2007, 03:24:08 AM »

Most universities will also do a free pick up (and delivery at contract end) at the airport, provide you with lodging and do all the residency permit stuff for you as well. Places with good FAOs will be there to sort out any problems you have.  I've been lucky and had a pretty good FAO previously and have now got an absolutely EXCELLENT one (even to the extent of them ringing me this morning and telling me there was no mail for me - they usually ring to tell me there is mail, but they knew I was waiting for a box of books from Amazon, and rang to let me know it hadn't arrived).

I don't see what a recruiter does for you that either you or the institution you go to can't do just as well and with fewer hassles.  I too don't see the need for a recruiter. 
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« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2007, 05:34:47 AM »

That's all very well for people with university degrees, but what about people who have had to start at the bottom rung with only a TESOL Certificate and nil teaching experience?
They don't have much to offer or bargain with, do they?
Recruiters are like a "one stop shop" for someone wanting to make their first tentative steps into teaching in China.
If researched properly via the internet, and emails, recruiters can be a definite boon to the absolute beginner.

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« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2007, 06:05:33 AM »

If you check the ads, particularly the middles school and kindergarten ones, then the language mills, even those that say 'degree required' will frequently accept your TESOL. You can negotiate directly with the institution. You still don't really need a recruiter to do that for you.
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Raoul F. Duke
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« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2007, 06:58:12 AM »

I couldn't disagree more strongly...or more respectfully...with what Noel has written.

It is exactly what the recruiters want you to believe.

The fact is that a recruiter does NOT add to your bargaining power. They get your resume in front of their string of client schools, but they don't change what's on that resume. A school that will hire you with no degree through a recruiter would also hire you without a recruiter. Probably at a slightly higher salary.
And please don't hold your breath waiting for most recruiters to negotiate a better deal for you...no matter who you are. Recruiters work for THEM, not for YOU.

If you have a birth certificate from a Big 7 country (USA, Canada, UK, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa) and a TESOL cert (and, of course, hopefully a nice white face with beeg American eye), you have a CONSIDERABLE amount to bargain with in China.

If you don't have a degree, you will be at some disadvantage. You will not be able to get a lot of college and public school jobs, and it'll be harder to get the upper tier of private jobs.

However, the intervention of a recruiter will change NEITHER of these realities.

People without degrees CAN find teaching jobs here, usually pretty readily. And they CAN do it on their own, without turning to a recruiter. They should not have to settle for less than they can find, or open themselves to being ripped off, any more than those with degrees.

The truth is, IMHO, that the vast majority of foreign teachers here can do better for themselves, and lower the risk of trouble, by doing their own research and working only directly with the schools.

Researching a recruiter may not be much real help. Researching a school is nebulous enough; it's even worse for recruiters. As mentioned above, a recruiter will put people into really-bad jobs and sorta-adequate jobs with equal enthusiasm. Different accounts will depend on pot luck. Of course, the reference e-mail addresses they send you will only come from those placed teachers who still smile at them, just as with the schools themselves. So again, you're not really adding much to your certainty here...and you ARE adding another layer- the recruiter- that can rip you off.

The only large class of people I know of who might have difficulty landing a teaching job without a recruiter are those who are not Caucasian and not from a Big 7 Country. These folks do struggle more...and are MUCH more prone to abuse, as the many atrocity stories coming from our Filipino, African, and other colleagues can attest. The recruiters too often have no qualms whatsoever about these abusive situations...and too often are actually part of that process.

Recruiters offer one thing, and one thing only: a tiny bit of convenience. They save you a few hours of online searching, and maybe sending a few e-mails. But the price you pay for this bit of convenience- lower expectations, contract bait-and-switch, potential abuse- is just too high for what you get.

IMHO.
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"Vicodin and dumplings...it's a great combination!" (Anthony Bourdain, in Harbin)

"Here in China we aren't just teaching...
we're building the corrupt, incompetent, baijiu-swilling buttheads of tomorrow!" (Raoul F. Duke)
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« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2007, 09:21:47 AM »


IMHO 4500 per month for 16 hours in a small obscure city is a pretty ho-hum job. However, a lot of people take jobs like this (which, of course, is why schools continue to get away with offering 4500 per month for 16 hours a week...) and are reasonably satisfied.

Well, I have to differ - 4500 per month for 16hours at a university in a small city is perfectly adequate. It would not be for a big city, but up here it's fine. I end up with a lot more disposable income than I did back in NZ and do a job I enjoy. I don't want to work at a private school or an International school, which may offer bigger salaries but many also offer longer working hours and non-standard working days. Besides, up here there is no International School and in this neck of woods there isn't a particularly wide range of tertiary institutions either. We're it!

I know that 4500 in a large city would be a different story, and I would be loathe to accept that wage there. However, the reality does seem to be that 4500 is an average wage for a public tertiary institute.


I understand that many public schools and universities must pay salaries that are heavily controlled by the local Education Bureaus. However, I can't see where this entails any obligation on our part to accept it. If these schools go long enough and are unable to find teachers to fill their classes, the Bureaus will have no choice but to change their policies. This will be a good thing for us.

If we were unionised maybe we could hang out for more but the reality is that most of us first-timers are job-hunting from outside of China, which brings in a whole lot of other issues.

As for recruiters and agents, I agree that they are not necessary.
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Raoul F. Duke
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« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2007, 05:53:32 PM »

4500 per month for 16hours at a university in a small city is perfectly adequate.

I didn't say it was inadequate, Vegemite, just ho-hum. Nothing special.
Cities are indeed more expensive. Part of it too is lifestyle...some of us are just more expensive to maintain than others. Personally, I'd struggle on 4500 even in a small town...but it would be adequate.

You're right...there will never be any structure on our side regarding salaries. There are too many who just don't care about the money very much (adventurous retirees, missionaries, would-be so-called well-meaning "volunteers", etc.) and too many who just don't know any better.
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"Vicodin and dumplings...it's a great combination!" (Anthony Bourdain, in Harbin)

"Here in China we aren't just teaching...
we're building the corrupt, incompetent, baijiu-swilling buttheads of tomorrow!" (Raoul F. Duke)
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« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2007, 03:04:15 AM »

I'm currently looking in Qingdao and Dalian (big by my standards) and from what I can see 4500RMB - 5000RMB (at the college and uni level) is the norm.

My current uni job pays 5800 a month for 10 months, zero in summer, with decent apartment and $1000 a year toward air fare. This is the lowest pay of three uni jobs I have had in China. I'd say 6000 was the norm. though unfortunately 10-month contracts are also a norm.
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« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2007, 07:41:20 AM »

I am trying to understand, really I am, so please bear with me.

So, dealing directly with a school, not through a recruiter, is going to be better for the job seeker.
Why?
Can't the school screw you just as well as the recruiter?
You also have a problem with the language barrier if you deal directly with a school (and please note I am talking about schools; not unis, not colleges, not private language schools; although I guess they can be just as bad).
It might help if I explain that my first teaching position was in a public middle school in a small, industrialised town in Hubei; I think there were only 3 schools in the whole town at the time. This position was found for me by a recruiter in Wuhan.
It turned out to be a not too bad experience, the school treated me pretty well, I was only earning 3500 RMB/ month, but had a big apartment on the campus, with all the creature comforts.
Now, I know after working there, that there was no way you could deal directly with that school, for one thing no one spoke English that well, they needed the recruiter as an intermediary.
I know what you are saying, recruiters are in it for the money and the foreign teachers are just a commodity with little thought given to them once the contract is signed.
So, I come back to what I said before, can't the school screw you as well as the recruiter?
Am I making sense?
Please don't get me wrong, I respect all the members and there advice and opinions, that is why I am here.
I am just trying to get the best method for finding a good paying job in a good school in a good city.
Well, as close as I can get.
By the way, can anyone advise me if I should use a special method to find these schools to deal with directly.
I am outside China and normally use Google for all my searching.
Most of the results seem to point me to another recruiter!
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MK
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« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2007, 08:36:03 AM »

One method I read about (but admittedly never actually followed through all the way to employment) is to find a school you like the sound of on a recruiters site, then simply find that school's website (Google the name - they almost all have them) and get a contact email to deal with the school directly.

I very much doubt the school will turn around and say '...oh, no, we only deal with such and such a recruiter, please go through them so they can charge both of us money!'.

In fact, a lot of schools actually have English pages on their websites where they invite app's from foreign teachers - they are just a bit rubbish at publicizing themselves.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2007, 06:10:53 PM by MK » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2007, 11:37:15 AM »

This works. www.chinatefl.com is useful in this regard.
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