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May 22, 2013, 09:02:03 PM
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Author Topic: Referring to Beijing as Beijing and not Peking: one writer's view  (Read 2605 times)
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Mr Nobody
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« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2007, 02:06:23 PM »

Wade Giles works better for Cantonese, which it was designed for, than Pinyin does, although I agree for Mandarin pinyin works better.

I thought Peking was because the people who they spoke to were mostly Cantonese, and didn't pronounce it the same way, but I could be wrong. I just assumed this. It sounds like Butging when they say it.

Cantonese people call Nanning where I live Lamning, for example, and Foshan, where my kung fu comes from is pronounced Fatsan by those that live there.

China doesn't use the convention that those that live there get to use their own name, so why should we use Putonghua when the locals have their own pronunciation anyhow. Why use Putonghua in particular, or Pinyin spelling at all, since the was originally Manchurian, and not originally Chinese at all but simply the dialect of the ruling classes during the Manchurian Dynasty. Pinyin doesn't work at all for other languages or dialects, just putonghua. Ask the local majority of Zhong people (They pronounce it something like Drongk; Zhong is what the ButGing people call them (the drunk people I call them)). Now there's some politics.

I figure, just muddle along like always. I say Beijing but call it Peking Duck. No one really gives a toss. If they give a toss they are likely either pretentious pricks or homeboys from the city. If you aren't actually in their city, ignore 'em.

Bombay. Cambodia. Peking. Canton. Hong Kong (not Heung Gong). Parisssssss. Like Taoism vs Daoism.

So I am not politically correct, so sue me. It's not a politically correct planet. And anyway, political correctness sucks the big one big time.

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contemporarydog
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« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2007, 02:56:55 PM »

I actually disagree with the writer about Beijing.  It's bloody Beijing.  Who cares.  But agree with him about Bombay.  The name Bombay is part of the iconography of the place.  It was just pure revisionism by the BJP idiot xenophobes...
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Lotus Eater
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« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2007, 03:47:48 PM »

I asked my Indian colleague what the Indians call it - it's Mumbai there. Wiki says Bombay was Anglicized from the Portuguese Bombaim. Mumbai comes from the name of a Hindu Goddess - Mumbadevi. Gujarati and Marathi speakers use Mumbai; Hindi, Urdu and Punjabi speakers Bambai.
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Mr Nobody
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« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2007, 02:57:03 AM »

OK just to add a bit :

My local province is Guangxi (Pinyin). I gather it means something like Western Plains. Mandarin speakers came late in the piece, soldiers sent here for punishment duty by the last emperor (or maybe Mao, I am not clear on it and the wife is off playing with the baby). The Zhong people were apparently not very welcoming, and fought the other 'minorities' quite enthusiastically throughout their history. They did a job on the Japanese invaders apparently, too.

The majority minority native local group the Zhong say it is Gvahnshi (near as I can get it) and they come from here.

The major language is a dialect of Cantonese called Baihua and they pronounce it GongSai. They have been here for a long time, about a thousand years I think, but not as long as the Drunk people, who maybe virtually evolved here, given the skulls in the caves. I dunno.

We have another 20 odd dialects here, including minorities originally from Vietnam, Cambodia and Thailand a few hundred years ago, long enough to evolved their own way of speaking different from their origins and other locals.

Which one is the 'right' one?
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limubai2000
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« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2007, 09:33:26 AM »

Quote
So I am not politically correct, so sue me. It's not a politically correct planet. And anyway, political correctness sucks the big one big time.

We don't live in a politically correct country so there is no reason to be thus.  I'm more happier this way by a long shot.

Chinese people who live in Beijing call it Beijing, thus it is Beijing.

Death to the writer by a cat-o-nine tails!

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contemporarydog
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« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2008, 12:15:47 AM »

Interesting Chinese take on the subject:

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/opinion/2008-03/29/content_6575622.htm

What's in a name? More specifically, what's in the spelling of a place name? Should the Chinese capital be spelt Beijing or Peking?

In a survey jointly conducted by China Youth Daily and Sina.com, a vast majority - 81 percent - opposed the old spelling, with only 10.7 percent supporting it and the rest not caring one way or the other. Opponents of "Peking" hold the view that Chinese proper names should be spelt with the standard pinyin. They further elaborate that pandering to the old spelling demonstrates a lack of cultural confidence and subservience to the Western mindset.

For me, this argument reflects the simplistic thinking of some people, especially the young, who habitually flaunt their political correctness. Cultural matters do not fall simply into right or wrong. As in the jianti versus fanti debate, which I discussed in this column last week, it is often a tradeoff between two equally flawed choices.

Peking was a Wade-Giles spelling, which was formalized in 1906 by the Imperial Postal Joint-Session Conference; and the pinyin system, which converts it to Beijing, was formally accepted by the UN in 1979.

Love it or hate it, the old form has accumulated so much baggage that you cannot change everything in one fell swoop. For example, the standard name for China's national opera is still Peking Opera. Why not change it to Beijing Opera? I guess Peking Opera was already known throughout the world when the city itself took on the new spelling. Ditto for Peking roast duck and Peking University.

A place name is not like a chemical element. It has more functions than simply denoting a place. It has associations. Great writers may have written about it; great singers sung about it. When you adopt a new name or change the spelling, some of that association will inevitably be lost. Just imagine a company that has spent tens of billions to promote its brand, and then forgo that brand name for something else.

That said, I'm not in favor of changing Beijing back to Peking - for two reasons: Beijing is perfectly pronounceable in English and many other languages; also, Beijing has been in use for three decades and a return to the old spelling would cause more confusion.

However, I strongly support the idea that Guangzhou promotes the old spelling Canton. Unlike Beijing, Guangzhou is not exactly a household name in the West. As a matter of fact, Guangzhou officials are pondering ways to publicize the city through the Asian Games it will host soon. When the city gave up the old spelling, it threw its most valuable intangible property to the winds.

Its biggest trading event is known overseas as the Canton Fair; Cantonese food is as widespread as MacDonald's and KFC; people from Guangdong province are called Cantonese. Now, if you ask most Americans about Cantonese, they are more likely to associate the name with Hong Kong.

Standardization is important. But the purpose is to make life easier, not to rigidly apply it to everything regardless of circumstances. As good as pinyin is, it is still a rule with exceptions. For example, we have Shanxi and Shaanxi, which, should pinyin be used, would be spelt the same unless we put tone marks above the letter a. Harbin did not give way to Ha'erbin.

Then, there are those cities in ethnic minority regions. Of course, you often see airlines fly to "Lasa" and "Wulumuqi", but the correct forms are Lhasa and Urumqi. For those who want every place name to appear as if they were typing it in a computer, my advice is: Learn it! Variety in culture is not a bad thing.

Email: raymondzhou@chinadaily.com.c
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fullricebowl
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« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2012, 02:48:47 AM »

I always thought it was called Peking because before Mao came in ~1949 the name was Beiping in Chinese- Beiping-Peking seems like an easier linguistic jump than Beijing-Peking and certainly people were calling the city a name well before 1950.
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kitano
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« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2012, 05:17:43 AM »

Kind of on topic I was talking to one of my students about Japan today because she was going there on holiday and I knew that they had a Chinese name for Tokyo but I didn't realise that they had Chinese names for all of the cities and foods and everything (not just phonetically adapted like English usually does, just Chinese words....)

It's kind of interesting how these things are related to politics though, another example is Sri Lanka/Ceylon. When they remade the constitution they changed the name and official language to one that deliberately alienated the Tamil minority, which as everyone knows turned out really well....


Oh and I think that the Peter Hitchens article is ludicrous, surely they updated the way we write Chinese cities because the new way sounds more like how they say it. It's sometimes confusing reading old books about China with things like Hangchow etc
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 05:24:12 AM by kitano » Logged
old34
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« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2012, 06:06:01 AM »

Kind of on topic I was talking to one of my students about Japan today because she was going there on holiday and I knew that they had a Chinese name for Tokyo but I didn't realise that they had Chinese names for all of the cities....

And interestingly enough (or not), the Chinese name for Tokyo is "Dongjing" (Eastern Capital). Just like Beijing (Northern Capital) and Nanjing (Southern Capital).
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kitano
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« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2012, 07:38:52 AM »

Kind of on topic I was talking to one of my students about Japan today because she was going there on holiday and I knew that they had a Chinese name for Tokyo but I didn't realise that they had Chinese names for all of the cities....

And interestingly enough (or not), the Chinese name for Tokyo is "Dongjing" (Eastern Capital). Just like Beijing (Northern Capital) and Nanjing (Southern Capital).

Xijing is London Cheesy

I actually looked up what Xijing was and it's Xi'an which my (Chinese) girlfriend didn't know. I said that that PROVES that T is not China, she didn't agree or disagree
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 03:53:00 PM by kitano » Logged
The Local Dialect
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« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2012, 09:31:10 AM »

The Chinese have Chinese names for Japanese cities that sound nothing like the Japanese names because they're simply pronouncing the characters for the Japanese place names in the Chinese way rather than the Japanese way. The characters are the same though. The Japanese characters for Tokyo 东京 are the same as the Chinese ones, just pronounced differently. Same with all of the cities.
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MK
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« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2012, 01:11:28 PM »

Wasn't there something about changing the name China used for Seoul, Korea a few years ago? ...yep there was, thanks Google:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Seoul#Chinese_name_for_Seoul

Quote from: Wikipedia
For some time, Mainland China media refused to adopt the new name, claiming that Chinese people have the right to choose how they name other cities around the world
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