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Author Topic: Chang Jiang Disease  (Read 18450 times)

Raoul F. Duke

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Re: Chang Jiang Disease
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2007, 02:43:07 PM »
I'll try it.
But 'Na' in Chinese always comes out 'La'...
"Vicodin and dumplings...it's a great combination!" (Anthony Bourdain, in Harbin)

"Here in China we aren't just teaching...
we're building the corrupt, incompetent, baijiu-swilling buttheads of tomorrow!" (Raoul F. Duke)

old34

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Re: Chang Jiang Disease
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2007, 03:12:18 PM »
I'll try it.
But 'Na' in Chinese always comes out 'La'...

Sometimes, yes.

In those cases try this: Have them say Hunan which, as you mentioned will come out as Hulan.

Point out the final N. They certainly don't say HuLaL. They can do the N, but they are used to it as a final.

Then, have them work it backwards. I'm not sure if Hunan people say Nali or Nar for "where", but if they use the Jiang Nan "nali", a "Hulan => Nali" (reverse) exercise might work.
Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit; wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad. - B. O'Driscoll.
TIC is knowing that, in China, your fruit salad WILL come with cherry tomatoes AND all slathered in mayo. - old34.

Con ate dog

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Re: Chang Jiang Disease
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2007, 03:38:56 PM »
  All else fails, record them, and play it back.
And there is no liar like the indignant man... -Nietszche

Nothing is so fatiguing as the eternal hanging on of an uncompleted task. -William James

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mrozark

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Re: Chang Jiang Disease
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2007, 03:53:57 PM »
Sounds like a toughie.

Here, the people from Hunan pronounce it: "Fulan".
I think many of them can't hear the difference.
Like many of us can't 'hear' tones or other new
sounds. I'm going to Russia soon (or maybe Ukraine)
and am looking forward to new challenges.

Raoul, I hope to stop by on my way and visit beautiful Suzhou
in Feb or March. I'll keep you posted so maybe I can see
more first hand this pronunciation challenge.

Raoul F. Duke

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Re: Chang Jiang Disease
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2007, 04:59:04 PM »
Hmmm...

I've done the final-N thing until I'm blue in the face. Doesn't help much. If it ain't at the end of the word, that tongue automatically curls up for that 'L'...
Maybe a staple gun? bfbfbfbfbf

Recording no good. I can reproduce what they say pretty precisely. If they can't hear me (and other students) saying it, why should they hear themselves on a tape?

I'm at least getting some new challenges right here in Suzhou.
I'm now doing some 1-on-1 classes with a hot young Japanese housewife that I'd like to bend over the tabl...
Uh, I digress.
She shares some pronunciation problems with my Chinese students, but not all. They have trubba she doesn't and vice-versa...so I'm having to develop some new tricks.
Maybe the worst thing is, with Chinese students I can often translate myself out of it. I sho'nuff can't do it in Japanese... alalalalal

As for coming to Suzhou...by all means. We'll hit The Sham until the most pressing pronunciation problems we encounter will be our own. agagagagag
"Vicodin and dumplings...it's a great combination!" (Anthony Bourdain, in Harbin)

"Here in China we aren't just teaching...
we're building the corrupt, incompetent, baijiu-swilling buttheads of tomorrow!" (Raoul F. Duke)

mrozark

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Re: Chang Jiang Disease
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2007, 08:52:58 PM »
Yes! We can teach slur-english. The most enjoyable
dialect. About that Japanese student, does she
have a seester?
All staples must be removed from the gun before
the celebrating starts.

jwbhomer

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Re: Chang Jiang Disease
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2007, 01:03:47 AM »
Just to be clear...are you trying to correct their pronunciation when they speak English or when they speak Chinese?
Many of my students (at universities in Guangdong) and my memorable Chinese girlfriend were from Hunan. They do substitute "f" for "h" -- "Funan" for "Hunan", "xifan" for "xihuan" -- but I took that to be a function of the regional accent. (When I tried to speak a few words of Mandarin, my students told me I was speaking with a Hunan accent!  bibibibibi) I didn't notice the confusion of l/n all that much.
I liked the suggestion of having them learn the difference by saying/singing lalalala and nananana (or was it nuhnuhnuhnuhnuh) the way an opera singer might when vocalizing. I can suggest two songs for practice:-
"Falalalala, lalalala" - from the Xmas carol "Deck the Halls"
"Nana, nananana, hey hey, goodbye" - Cream (?)
Even if they can't learn the difference, your students will be hugely amused by your renditions.

I was very much a stickler for good pronunciation and enunciation. Let me share something that worked for me and that my students had great fun with. Try printing out some eight-line excerpts from almost any of the Gilbert & Sullivan "patter songs".  Get your students to read it as poetry, not too fast, taking time to pronounce each word correctly. You must explain that the lyrics are nonsense, and that they shouldn't even try to understand, but should concentrate on making the correct sounds come out of their mouths.

We had a great time with "I am the very model of a modern major-general", "I am the monarch of the sea" and "My eyes are fully open to my awful situation".  ahahahahah ahahahahah ahahahahah

To Raoul...once you get the l/n confusion sorted out, you can tackle s/sh/x.  llllllllll

Raoul F. Duke

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Re: Chang Jiang Disease
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2007, 09:52:03 PM »
I'm focused on English, but it would also help their Putonghua...

I haven't noticed an s/sh/x thing here but I'll listen for it!
"Vicodin and dumplings...it's a great combination!" (Anthony Bourdain, in Harbin)

"Here in China we aren't just teaching...
we're building the corrupt, incompetent, baijiu-swilling buttheads of tomorrow!" (Raoul F. Duke)

Stil

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Re: Chang Jiang Disease
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2007, 12:27:49 AM »
In the Changsha area many say Funan/Fulan. In their native dialect it's correct but most have no problem changing the F to H and saying Hunan/Hulan when they think about it. I find in the Putonghua locally, N and L are interchangeable, so much so that different people spell words differently in Pinyin. However in English they are able to use the proper (well reasonably close) pronunciation once they know how the word is spelled. The SH/S/X is particularly poor. Many cannot make the SH sound in neither Putonghua nor English. Much like TH they have trouble with their tongue placement (I'm working on this diligently  uuuuuuuuuu) Around here when two Chinese people speak,it's impossible to say 4 or 10 with out flashing fingers. You really have to listen to the tones. 44 sounds like si4 si2 si4

Stil

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Re: Chang Jiang Disease
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2007, 05:27:17 AM »
It's true in Hunan. In 浏阳 Liuyang there are 4 main dialects north, south, east, west but within these regions, village to village the dialects are slightly different. The people from the east and from the south cannot understand each other at all, so there is now a 5th dialect for in the city proper. This is a small city. It's a kind of blending you might call it Liuyang putonghua. Liuyang is about an hour east of Changsha and it's dialect is not at all like Changsha hua. People in Changsha do not understand Liuyang hua. Even numbers are pronounced quite differently.

Saying Hunan dialect is really meaningless.

Raoul F. Duke

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Re: Chang Jiang Disease
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2007, 08:04:14 AM »
I use a tongue twister ("She sells sea shells by the sea shore.") to work on S/SH, but it's really more for accuracy than correction. I don't hear too many problems with it 'round hyah.
"Vicodin and dumplings...it's a great combination!" (Anthony Bourdain, in Harbin)

"Here in China we aren't just teaching...
we're building the corrupt, incompetent, baijiu-swilling buttheads of tomorrow!" (Raoul F. Duke)

George

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Re: Chang Jiang Disease
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2007, 08:22:22 AM »
England has the same problem with dialects!
The higher they fly, the fewer!    http://neilson.aminus3.com/

AMonk

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Re: Chang Jiang Disease
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2007, 09:03:36 AM »
What else do you say apart from 'go to hospital'?  Go hospital? to hospital?


"Go to the hospital"
Moderation....in most things...

Raoul F. Duke

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Re: Chang Jiang Disease
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2007, 09:50:01 AM »
Yup. 'Go to the hospital' is the North American (ie source of the current world standard  cccccccccc) way of phrasing it.

Which points up another common China English problem...I constantly have to remind my students that words like 'a', 'an' and 'the' may be short, but they are important and must be included...
"Vicodin and dumplings...it's a great combination!" (Anthony Bourdain, in Harbin)

"Here in China we aren't just teaching...
we're building the corrupt, incompetent, baijiu-swilling buttheads of tomorrow!" (Raoul F. Duke)

mrozark

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Re: Chang Jiang Disease
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2007, 03:35:52 PM »
Yep; go to the hospital.
Go to the store.
But if you're angry, you are
allowed to say 'go to hell'.

'Go to the hell' would obviously be bad English. afafafafaf

I'm not sure which grammar rule applies and I don't care. Grammar follows
popular changes in speech as they happen in society.

I propose 'yep' be adopted as formal and proper English. Any takers?
Ok, sorry. Back to Chang Jiang Disease...