China's endgame?

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Re: China's endgame?
« Reply #60 on: January 12, 2021, 08:31:01 PM »
Maybe if someone bothered to ask China they would say what would be appropriate.  I've noticed that you always avoid answering the same question with regard to how you would react if exactly the same thing was done to Australia.  You must think it's ok to have your own people unapologetically abused as long as this ensures that no other nation has to acknowledge any misdeeds against China.

In the meantime, the issue between South Korea and Japan just got shoved back into the limelight:

https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2021/01/70612452d5a3-japan-foreign-minister-protests-s-koreas-comfort-women-ruling.html

Which clearly proves that China is not alone in its objections to Japan's activities during WWII.  Of course, Calach will happily claims that Japan doesn't even owe those Korean women any form of acknowledgement or apology, because that would make it hard for him to not say the same thing about Chinese women given the same (or worse) treatment.  The lack of European ancestry in Korean women may also play a significant role in Calach's thought processes on this issue.

Reparation amounts are always disputable.  Refusal to even acknowledge live victims of such a crime were wronged isn't, except if your brain has soaked up enough Calach-thought.  Once you have, you can justify any bad act merely by thinking like Calach.

Under Calach-thought, if China was also a victim of a crime by another nation, then the crime deserves no acknowledgement and can be covered up.  Any nation complaining about such a crime is automatically demoted to the unworthy "Not Like Us!" category in order to preserve Calach-thought's universal maxim that China somehow is always wrong and doesn't have the right to even point out the flaws of hypocritical nations.

Calach-thought also seems to have trouble of examples between winning nations and losing nations in a war, despite the fact that "war crimes" should be applied equally.  Yet, he seem ok with European nations to receive apologies and to take steps to prevent those crimes from happening again while he exempts the people in Asian nations victimized by Japan from any need to follow Germany's example  This whole thread makes it obvious this flagrant double standard is primarily because China is one of the Asian nations that was abused in that war.

Even though there is no 100% universal definition of rights, Calech-thought uses China not making promises to its citizens that are routinely ignored by his own country and other "One Of Us" nations to support stripping China of any right to complain about any past crime against Chinese citizens, even the use of its citizens for biowarfare experiments or to point out that "One Of Us" countries routinely use their rights declarations for toilet paper when oppressing some segment of their own citizens is convenient.

Of course, the lack if a perfect and universally agreed upon set of rights is also used under Calach-thought to undermine any argument about a "One Of Us" nation to even grudgingly confess to actions that should be reviled by all civilized nations.

Calach-thought justifies oppressing minorities within his own nation and nations in the "One Of Us" category and ignoring sacred pledges granting allegedly universal rights to all citizens because the oppressed minorities lack sufficient global economic power.

To expect China to forgive and forget items that were never properly acknowledged is like expecting African Americans for forget all the murders of black "suspects" at the hands of police in 2020 (and before) until real reforms take place.

It's not. When African Americans are in possession of sufficiently global economic power, then it'll be like that.

This may explain why Calach-thought can so easily ignore not only attempted genocide against Australian's indigenous people, but the fact that they still have a hugely disproportionate number of of "police-related" deaths.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-52900929

Of course, the BBC is allowed to discuss this flagrant use of Australia's guaranteed rights as toilet paper, but China still lacks standing.

From the Age of Exploration, when the East was opened up to the West (often at gunpoint, just ask Japan), relative to the colonial empires, China did indeed lack possession of sufficiently global economic power, and paid a price.  It wasn't as bad a price as the entire continents that were overrun (Africa, Australia, and the Americas), but if history had been just a little different, the plans to partition and annex China into a set of western colonies had already been drawn up.  So, western nations and even modernized Japan used China as a doormat and felt no need to apologize to such an "inferior" nation.  I believe this contributes to Calach-thought's view of China as being unworthy of any form or respect and acting with great offense if China gets "uppity" and dares to point out the hypocrisy of "superior" nations (especially his own).  "Heaven forbid that the land where kangaroos are granted superior rights to aboriginal peoples ever have to show the slightest trace of respect to some poor backward non-white nation not worthy to crack open a can of Fosters" would seem to be a common thought in those attuned to Calech-thought.

Calech-thought seems to require China to be required to endure continued hypocritical scorn heaped upon it, to never point out the flaws of "superior" countries, and to endure various sanctions without being allowed to retaliate.  This is exactly how school yard bullies want the world to always work.

Oh wait, what if we apply this Calach-thought economic double standard for rights to China vs Australia instead of black vs white America or aboriginals vs white Australia?

Then modern China took a big turn economically.  It's now the world's second largest economy.

Let's apply "possession of sufficiently global economic power" and see.

Australia's 2019 GDP was about 1.38 trillion US$.  China's 2019 GDP was about 14.4 trillion US$.  Guangdong Province alone had a higher GDP than Australia.  The newest projections put China passing the US for Worlds Largest GDP in 2028.

Bullies usually end their bullying careers badly.  They continue to act as if nothing will ever change even as some of their smaller victims hit a growth spurt and pass them in size.  Just as one day the bully's world view is ruined when he finally realizes he can no longer continue terrorizing his victims into compliance with his cruel whims, Calach-thought's dream of Australia becoming the economic and (im)moral leader of SE Asia is being crushed.

If Calech-thought were not so overflowing with inconsistencies and double standards, that twisted though process would allow China to ignore any hint of fairness for Australia and Australians by China, since Australia is certainly not in "possession of sufficiently global economic power" to be worthy of China's respect.

Yet, China doesn't do this.  When it is subjected to hypocritical attacks or trade sanctions, it responds far more proportionately than a certain soon to be former US president did with Canada and Mexico over a perceived unfairness in a well established treaty.

My hope is that very few people will subscribe to Calach-thought.  It wriggles and turns to allow massive injustice done by one set of countries does (even to their own people) while immunizing those countries against criticism from those not in the "One Of Us" club, while also stripping those "Not Like Us (especially China)" countries of any possibility of being able to be operate on a level playing field in trade or any other form of international negotiations.

The world is changing.  A government system different than what nearly all Saloon dwellers grew up with has done things that seemed impossible not so long ago.  No one system stays on top for eternity.  The sooner a new system gets complacent, the sooner it's forced to either reform or face serious loss of its power.  No amount of Calech-thought can stop this.  So far, the West is stuck in denial instead of trying to make any serious changes.  The good news is that China isn't interested in conquering the world, so there's still time for the West to try to live up to it's claimed ideals and find new ways to try make itself more competitive.  If it doesn't, eventually, China will end up being completely unrivaled on top.  Then China will have to work very hard to avoid the same complacency that took down all the previous world leaders, eventually with a chance of being in competition against some new political system that no one's even thought up yet.

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AMonk

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Re: China's endgame?
« Reply #61 on: January 13, 2021, 03:38:52 AM »
Gentlemen -- your civil disagreement, debate and "banter" is in danger of becoming NOT.  Please take care, lest you descend into personal attacks.

Thank you bjbjbjbjbj

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Re: China's endgame?
« Reply #62 on: January 14, 2021, 10:27:28 AM »
Beijing curates history. That is the origin of every dismissal I make of The Humiliation and its meaning. Any investment I make in understanding or even acknowledging the impact of history on China and Chinese as expressed by present day believers and polemicists is exactly proportional to my investment in the wisdom and merit of that curation.

In that respect it is interesting to observe the "baseless speculation" that SARS-CoV-2 has its origin in bats or pangolin. The main reason for ignoring the western conspiracy theory that SARS-CoV-2 originated in a Wuhan lab was the, what's it called? Viral ethnography? The lack of evidence in the genomic structure of tampering and the substantial scientific evidence in that structure of evolutionary similarity to bat coronaviruses.

That's to say, Beijing curates history and seems to do so according to some standard other than verifiable fact. I can observe then that the "century of humiliation" exists now, and it does so in the minds of the believers and polemicists, and that's about all I can observe without recourse to actual historians, who, for all I know, on this topic, might not exist either.

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Re: China's endgame?
« Reply #63 on: January 14, 2021, 05:06:27 PM »
I wish all sides would stop politicizing a naturally evolved virus.  Zoonotic infections happen quite frequently around the world.

Here's just a sample of the evidence against "made in an evil lab" conspiracy theories:

The 2019‐new coronavirus epidemic: Evidence for virus evolution - https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jmv.25688

The proximal origin of SARS-CoV-2 - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9

Baseless Conspiracy Theories Claim New Coronavirus Was Bioengineered - https://www.factcheck.org/2020/02/baseless-conspiracy-theories-claim-new-coronavirus-was-bioengineered/

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Re: China's endgame?
« Reply #64 on: January 15, 2021, 03:29:13 PM »
SARS-CoV-2 is not a genetically modified terror virus. The reported science backs this.

The reported science does not, and can not, tell us for how long after it had been found in the wild, SARS-CoV-2 or a near equivalent had been stored at that lab in Wuhan before some hapless gain-of-function researcher went grocery shopping without washing his shoes.

That job, the one of telling us how the mistake happened, isn't even the task of the hapless WHOsearchers soon to be following strict regulations in Wuhan.

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Re: China's endgame?
« Reply #65 on: January 22, 2021, 05:46:05 PM »
Science does tell us that it is very plausible that the virus passed from an animal to a human without any need for a detour through any lab inside or outside of China.  Viruses do this all the time.

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Re: China's endgame?
« Reply #66 on: January 26, 2021, 10:12:44 AM »
Politics and economics tell us something different.

In America for example, we know longstanding dumbassery over firearms, climate change, and health care is driven by gigantic vested interest. (Smoking used to be in that group too but the manufacturers shifted their attentions to the developing world.) Anti-vaccination movements appear to occupy some other realm unknown to vested interest, but in fact parochial faith is the big one there. Communities pit their local version of humanity against the incursions of Satan in the form of histories of medicine.

And now to China where the virus definitely didn't start and won't someone think of the old people (they definitely die in Norway from mRNA).

China pushes conspiracy theories on COVID origin, vaccines


What's the vested interest?

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Re: China's endgame?
« Reply #67 on: January 26, 2021, 04:17:00 PM »
I would personally be happier of all sides didn't toss out conspiracy theories. For anyone on any side who wasn't an eye witness or doesn't have very solid evidence of where and how the transfer from animals to humans took place to claim to know exactly how this got into humans at this point is not helping to determine the truth.   I understand that China has floated some conspiracy theories because Trump started it and others in the picked it up and ran with it, but I think this is an area where taking the high road is the better path.  Making a list of all "possibilities" is reasonable.  Aggressive accusations by any side without evidence only makes the search for facts more complicated.

In the meantime, WHO is investigating and samples from around the world are being checked by independent laboratories.  If there's an intermediate animal between bats and humans, finding out what it is will greatly help narrow down possible points of origin, as well as whether or not any labs were studying samples of blood from the correct animals in the correct areas or not.

Sadly, even if the actual animal in question, the method of transfer to humans, and patient zero are all located and independently verified 1000 times over by the top scientists and health authorities of any country that cares to look, many people will still continue to believe whatever conspiracy theory best suits their personal biases.

In the meantime, nature is still busy cooking up nasty surprises around the world.  I hope the next time something like this happens, more countries will dive headfirst into containing the problem instead of trying to figure out if there's some way to politicize it.
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Re: China's endgame?
« Reply #68 on: January 26, 2021, 06:43:59 PM »
Post-truth supposedly started with Watergate, where access to news media grew widespread enough that instant national shame could come into existence. Not historical shame, because who actually feels that on a political level if you're not part of an interest group. Real time national shame was the existential threat of the 70s through the 90s. These days we have Trump and conspiracies, and they're probably better viewed as the relatively benign result of developed nations spending half a century mitigating world wide impacts of people knowing what was going on.

The idiocracy needs a fair bit longer than that to actually become the true foundation of "the west". It has to do away with centuries of "truth" and "reason" in education and development. In that sense the current generation looks shaky, but only viewed on their own short time line.

So, China jumping on that bandwagon... it's about the same as their own scientific and technological development - really shallow. But it'll work. Having centuries of "truth" and "reason" as a foundation over here won't redraw the erasures of the last few years over there, nor those of the next few.


So is it true? Is the Chinese endgame in fact that shallow? I'm going to say, in foundation, yes. Tremendous amouns of money right now is big right now, but it doesn't last. So... by way of contribution to the rest of the world, what else have they got? What's the big thing for us all to cheer on? Why is that country's current ideological positioning more than just a giant road bump?

They're going to champion the developing world? That's so five years ago. What's their real game now?


I don't know that they have one beyond "survival".

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Re: China's endgame?
« Reply #69 on: January 27, 2021, 06:03:41 PM »
Check with the patent office (even the US Patent Office) and you'll see that China's science and technology development is getting deeper and wider,

Check the latest on foreign investment capital inflows and you'll see that investors from other countries are betting more and more money on China's future growth and development.

China's long term goals are not a secret  Every 5 year, 10 year, 15 year, and longer plan is publicly announced.  Things like when carbon emissions will peak, when gasoline powered cars will no longer be sold get announced.  Components for a space station will be launched soon, and a research base on the moon is being planned.

China operates on much longer time frames than most nations, so "end game" really doesn't fit as well as "major long term plans."  China plans to be energy independent, carbon neutral, and be a major player in science, technology, and finance, all while continuing to improve the lives of Chinese citizens.  All of this will happen no matter what attitude the US takes towards China, but a mutually cooperative approach from the US will make the US, China, and the rest of the world more prosperous than a deliberately obstructive approach.
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Re: China's endgame?
« Reply #70 on: January 27, 2021, 07:18:39 PM »
lol

Re: China's endgame?
« Reply #71 on: January 27, 2021, 07:27:25 PM »
But seriously, by accident I found myself listening to a presentation by Wang Gungwu today

How Political Heritage and Future Progress Shape the China Challenge with Wang Gungwu

It's damn interesting. In under about thirty minutes he provides what sounds like the authentic substance behind modern China's, until now, seemingly really shallow propaganda.

Re: China's endgame?
« Reply #72 on: February 05, 2021, 11:32:42 PM »
Bonus: an endgame for the US too

Short of War
How to Keep U.S.-Chinese Confrontation From Ending in Calamity


Officials in Washington and Beijing don’t agree on much these days, but there is one thing on which they see eye to eye: the contest between their two countries will enter a decisive phase in the 2020s. This will be the decade of living dangerously. No matter what strategies the two sides pursue or what events unfold, the tension between the United States and China will grow, and competition will intensify; it is inevitable. War, however, is not. It remains possible for the two countries to put in place guardrails that would prevent a catastrophe: a joint framework for what I call “managed strategic competition” would reduce the risk of competition escalating into open conflict....

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Re: China's endgame?
« Reply #73 on: February 08, 2021, 06:30:04 PM »
Competition is what China is all about and what the US used to be about.  Getting on top let the US rig the game.  Think I'm wrong about the US rigging the game?  Just announce your country is going to sell oil where the official price isn't set in US dollars and see how long until you get "liberated" in the name of freedom and democracy.  That US dollar peg for most important commodities helps prop up the dollar no matter how much money the us borrows or prints.

If the US is open to fair competition, that will benefit the whole world, not just the US and/or China.  This could be just like how the technological spinoffs from the space race paid for the moon landings more than twice over and created new jobs completely unrelated to space exploration.
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