Raoul's China Saloon (V4.0 Beta)

The Bar Room => The BS-Wrestling Pit => Topic started by: Calach Pfeffer on February 22, 2016, 05:22:08 AM

Title: Encryption
Post by: Calach Pfeffer on February 22, 2016, 05:22:08 AM
Pedophiles, terrorists, rapists, and you, and other bad actors seeking secure encryption, how can you look at yourself in even your phone's reflective surfaces?
Title: Re: Encryption
Post by: ericthered on February 22, 2016, 10:17:59 AM
Err...well..to be quite honest I have never even considered if there is encryption on my xiaomi phone and I do not really care if there is or not. Let the CCP, NSA, CIA, FBI, PET (yep, that is the acronym for the Danish Police Intelligence or Politiets Efterretningsvjeneste) GRU, INTERPOL and whoever else wants to read my text messages and scan my browser action. I mean, if that can get a few more people interested in P.G.Wodehouse and the delightful study that is 18th Century crime and punishment, then I am all for it. So to answer your question which seemed to have been directed at everyone, I don't seek encryption. I don't sweat the surveillance scare. Because I ain't got nuffink to haide, guv'nor agagagagag agagagagag
Title: Re: Encryption
Post by: Calach Pfeffer on February 22, 2016, 10:40:46 AM
You know what relies on encryption? Valois' Plantagenet Nobility.


And pedophiles.
Title: Re: Encryption
Post by: ericthered on February 22, 2016, 11:03:47 AM
Mmm...yes...but I use my Virtual Pole-vaulting Necessity to do research and post pictures on Facebook. I will gladly stop using it. Just call the chaps in Zhongnanhai and have them make Facebook, youtube and other completely innocent sites available and I will discard my Vippledy Pibbledy Nibbledy with a heave-ho, yo ho ho. I assume you don't use one? And pedophiles, scum as they are, have been able to practice their vile nasty perverseness before encryption, Just ask Cardinal Pell. A pedophile does not have to use encryption today to stay safe, he just needs to be a clergyman in the Holy Roman Catholic Church. But when you have made the use of encryption tools unnecessary for the non perverted sick bastards, and I count myself as being a not perverted sick bastard, please let me know.
Title: Re: Encryption
Post by: Calach Pfeffer on February 22, 2016, 11:13:18 AM
I note you have counted yourself as something. Or more exactly as not something. You appear to be subverting state authority. A world in which individuals choose for themselves what they are, is a world we might as well give to the terrorists, because they count themselves as something and as not something. Terrorists grasp these freedoms to place themselves in opposition to social order and security. They are Not Western. Not Christian. Not Life Affirming. Your alignment with the correct action of having Nothing to Hide is to be applauded but I don't think you should consider it your choice. I don't think you should align yourself with terrorists in that way.
Title: Re: Encryption
Post by: ericthered on February 22, 2016, 11:32:16 AM
See, I know passive aggressive baiting when I read it. I am aligning myself with terrorists because I use a vip pummel necromancer? Ok, whatever you say. I would like to defend myself but I am going to use my nefarious terrorist tool to watch stand up comedy on youtube.  agagagagag agagagagag
Title: Re: Encryption
Post by: Isidnar on February 22, 2016, 04:06:28 PM
...
Title: Re: Encryption
Post by: Calach Pfeffer on February 22, 2016, 11:55:37 PM
See, I know passive aggressive baiting when I read it. I am aligning myself with terrorists because I use a vip pummel necromancer? Ok, whatever you say. I would like to defend myself but I am going to use my nefarious terrorist tool to watch stand up comedy on youtube.  agagagagag agagagagag

No, no. You're aligning yourself with terrorists if you imagine you can say for yourself what you are. In an age of warrantless surveillance, saying what you are is the government's not the citizen's right. After all, the government can choose to collect and assess all of your data *without a warrant* really only if it is their right to determine what and who you are, not yours. If you imagine they must have some reason related to you or your actions before they can start looking into who you are, you are asserting yourself to be independent from their choices. And that is what the terrorists do.

Effective encryption reduces the number of opportunities a government has to inspect you or your data in detail. But what right did the government have in the first place to inspect you or your data anyway?
Title: Re: Encryption
Post by: ericthered on February 23, 2016, 12:17:15 AM
You know what...gloves off...terrorist blow up people! They kill children! How the f**k do you have the gall to call me a terrorist or even imply I am aligning myself with them? You can take your insults and stick 'em! I use an encryption tool because I have chosen to live in a tyranny where the government can do whatever the hell it wants. If I lived in Denmark, I would not be using one because there the govt does not have the right to curtail what information I can read. So, no, I am not aligning myself with terrorists and the fact that you claim I do do is completely and wholeheartedly unacceptable. How the hell dare you put me in the same box as terrorists!!!! A less civilized man than I would resort to insults or coarse language right now. Instead I will simply ignore this thread...and you can go...well...I think you can imagine where you can go!!!!
Title: Re: Encryption
Post by: Calach Pfeffer on February 23, 2016, 12:52:54 AM
You've taken it personally. I wrote it that way of course, so I apologise. I was aiming rather more at the impersonal issue of warrants, but went ahead and personalised it anyway. You're probably not a terrorist.
Title: Re: Encryption
Post by: Escaped Lunatic on February 23, 2016, 01:03:43 AM
Err...well..to be quite honest I have never even considered if there is encryption on my xiaomi phone and I do not really care if there is or not. Let the CCP, NSA, CIA, FBI, PET (yep, that is the acronym for the Danish Police Intelligence or Politiets Efterretningsvjeneste) GRU, INTERPOL and whoever else wants to read my text messages and scan my browser action. I mean, if that can get a few more people interested in P.G.Wodehouse and the delightful study that is 18th Century crime and punishment, then I am all for it. So to answer your question which seemed to have been directed at everyone, I don't seek encryption. I don't sweat the surveillance scare. Because I ain't got nuffink to haide, guv'nor agagagagag agagagagag

Please use encryption.  Subjecting innocent government monitoring personnel to your literary tastes could be a violation of international conventions against torture. ahahahahah
Title: Re: Encryption
Post by: Calach Pfeffer on February 23, 2016, 04:12:17 AM
The references, btw:

A while back, it was the director of the FBI who explained the link between encryption and pedophilia. He said enabling data encryption on Apple's latest iPhones is something that pedophiles, kidnappers and terrorists celebrate (http://www.techtimes.com/articles/17816/20141015/ipad-air-2-release-date-nears-leaked-specs-suggests-a8x-processor-2gb-ram-touch-id-and-more.htm). And John J Escalante, the chief of detectives in Chicago said "Apple will become the phone of choice for the pedophile" (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/09/26/the-phone-of-choice-for-the-pedophile/).

More recently, it was the director of the NSA who explained, vividly, the link between encryption and terrorism: Because of encrypted communications, he said, "we did not generate the insights ahead of time. Clearly, had we known, Paris would not have happened." (http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/02/nsas-director-says-paris-attacks-would-not-have-happened-without-crypto/)

And some mutt somewhere in the middle explained rapists would use encryption too. As I recall it was something about encrypted phones being inaccessible therefore the photos the rapist took wouldn't exist as evidence.


If you support encryption, you support terror, rape, child abuse and kidnap. If the terrorists ever start taking their vitamins, we're doomed as a society.
Title: Re: Encryption
Post by: Escaped Lunatic on February 23, 2016, 05:55:15 AM
All the world's ills run amok vs unleashing ETR's literary tastes on government employees?  Even King Solomon would have trouble making that decision.
Title: Re: Encryption
Post by: Tree on February 23, 2016, 07:13:13 AM
The references, btw:

A while back, it was the director of the FBI who explained the link between encryption and pedophilia. He said enabling data encryption on Apple's latest iPhones is something that pedophiles, kidnappers and terrorists celebrate (http://www.techtimes.com/articles/17816/20141015/ipad-air-2-release-date-nears-leaked-specs-suggests-a8x-processor-2gb-ram-touch-id-and-more.htm). And John J Escalante, the chief of detectives in Chicago said "Apple will become the phone of choice for the pedophile" (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/09/26/the-phone-of-choice-for-the-pedophile/).

More recently, it was the director of the NSA who explained, vividly, the link between encryption and terrorism: Because of encrypted communications, he said, "we did not generate the insights ahead of time. Clearly, had we known, Paris would not have happened." (http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/02/nsas-director-says-paris-attacks-would-not-have-happened-without-crypto/)

And some mutt somewhere in the middle explained rapists would use encryption too. As I recall it was something about encrypted phones being inaccessible therefore the photos the rapist took wouldn't exist as evidence.


If you support encryption, you support terror, rape, child abuse and kidnap. If the terrorists ever start taking their vitamins, we're doomed as a society.

Who honestly buys the "think of the children" angle these days?

Also, unless you are using two way encryption which most people don't know about your ISP or cellphone provider can track you, and those have been under the thumb of the man since forever. Especially post 911.

They just want to get the list of phone numbers and pics, all his traffic has been logged elsewhere. I think they are making a fuss because somebody is telling them no. Somebody call the waaaaambulance poor Unkie Sam has all the toys but one.
Title: Re: Encryption
Post by: Calach Pfeffer on February 23, 2016, 08:49:39 AM
Who honestly buys the "think of the children" angle these days?

Pew: public supports FBI over Apple (http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2016/02/22/americans-feelings-privacy-security-depend-timing-pew-apple-fbi-court-911/80765662/)

That particular story seems to me to be typical of the security vs privacy opinions in the US. By some narrow margin, public opinion is on the nothing to hide side of the debate. That is, the think of the children, think of our future, think of the security of the nation angle is marginally dominant in the country that determines what the gold standard for government intrusion shall be.


On the matter of nothing to hide, I think in fact I have everything to hide. I don't think it's appropriate for agencies or governments to decide how acceptable I am unless I ask them to. They can police their borders and expect me to maintain civil conduct when I am nearby. But I don't think their right to my information is stronger than my right to my information.
Title: Re: Encryption
Post by: Escaped Lunatic on February 23, 2016, 10:18:53 AM
These are the same people who put "Professional Driver, Closed Course, Do Not Attempt" messages on any car commercial which shows the car in motion.  Before they are done, it will be safe for toddlers to play in traffic on an expressway or to wander around inside a steel foundry.  It's the ultimate nanny state - everyone gets protected like toddlers in need of close nanny supervision.



Title: Re: Encryption
Post by: Calach Pfeffer on February 24, 2016, 01:14:29 AM
Governments and organizations have an interest in my data, but I don't think they have a right to it. Obviously, citizens can align themselves with their government or organization's interests and they can offer to show off their data for free, but any attempt by their government or organization to mandate inspection of all data is inappropriate. So, for instance, breaking encryption standards so that law enforcement can "look inside" whenever they want is wrong.

Is there any analogous technology out there? Are there, for instance, banking systems that local law enforcement cannot access even when they have legitimate suspicion of law breaking? Are there impenetrable housing materials for doors and walls that local law enforcement cannot breach? Are such things morally wrong? Should bullet proof vests receive censure because they enable robbery?

How about guns? Pedophiles don't use them, I guess, but rapists and terrorists do.
Title: Re: Encryption
Post by: Escaped Lunatic on February 24, 2016, 01:26:22 AM
Governments and organizations have an interest in my data, but I don't think they have a right to it. Obviously, citizens can align themselves with their government or organization's interests and they can offer to show off their data for free, but any attempt by their government or organization to mandate inspection of all data is inappropriate. So, for instance, breaking encryption standards so that law enforcement can "look inside" whenever they want is wrong.

But how will law enforcement be sure you aren't working for a drug cartel to finance your terrorist activities if they don't have full access to your phone and computer records?

Soon enough, you'll need a license to have a phone.  Part of the application will be an agreement to always be monitored.  After all, maybe you aren't doing anything illegal or dangerous now, but that could change.

Once that's in place, the next license will be for internet access.

Quote
Is there any analogous technology out there? Are there, for instance, banking systems that local law enforcement cannot access even when they have legitimate suspicion of law breaking? Are there impenetrable housing materials for doors and walls that local law enforcement cannot breach? Are such things morally wrong? Should bullet proof vests receive censure because they enable robbery?

At least one bank robbery did involve bullet proof vests.  Let's restrict them today!

Quote
How about guns? Pedophiles don't use them, I guess, but rapists and terrorists do.

What?  You want to allow guns?  What if a terrorist pedophile gets a gun?  Are you supporting terrorist pedophiles over non-terrorist pedophiles?  This sort of thing is why you need to be closely monitored. uuuuuuuuuu


Title: Re: Encryption
Post by: Calach Pfeffer on February 24, 2016, 01:46:44 AM
Once that's in place, the next license will be for internet access.

You know what, I don't think that one's too far fetched. I don't actually know anything about encryption, but for instance PGP uses a combination of public and private keys. The keys are code keys, like sig files, almost, I believe, and you generally maintain a single private key. Thus, an actual global system of encrypted communication could actually come into being if everyone went online only with their own private key in hand. It'd serve as a digital signature, an encryption key, and.......... your license. Which a government could make rules about.

I just made that up. I don't know if the technology works that way. Surely it's the next step though. Right now "real name" signups exist and they rely on offline credentials, like ID cards. Next up, personal encryption keys.
Title: Re: Encryption
Post by: Tree on February 24, 2016, 02:07:38 AM
These are the same people who put "Professional Driver, Closed Course, Do Not Attempt" messages on any car commercial which shows the car in motion.  Before they are done, it will be safe for toddlers to play in traffic on an expressway or to wander around inside a steel foundry.  It's the ultimate nanny state - everyone gets protected like toddlers in need of close nanny supervision.


Less warning signs. Let's let nature weed some out shall we? Who really needs a "caution: hot" sticker on their stove?

@CP: A more cynical person might also think that the longer Apple holds out the longer they stay in the news, and no publicity is bad publicity. But one would have to be jaded to have a thought like that, a real ass.