Raoul's China Saloon (V4.0 Beta)

The Bar Room => The Legalities Board: Visas, Permits, Taxes, and More! (ON-TOPIC) => Topic started by: josephaaroncampbell on May 11, 2014, 03:08:52 PM

Title: Visa Difficulties (in bad situation)
Post by: josephaaroncampbell on May 11, 2014, 03:08:52 PM
Hello everyone,

I was hoping somebody here could give me a bit of advice as I'm in a bit of a bad spot.


Worked in China on a Z-visa/residence permit in Luoyang, Henan province from August of 2013 to April 30th of this year. I had planned on switching jobs, and had told my previous employer that I would be working elsewhere. All was fine and well.

April 29th comes and my new "boss" informs me there might be a problem. The local PSB informed my new "boss" that the rules had changed and that my previous employer should have given my new school the necessary documents to transfer and extend my residence permit 30 days ago. New boss says I might have to leave and come back on a tourist visa while he gathers the necessary documents (the f*ckers are NEVER prepared I swear). A few hours later the new boss says he had a discussion with the my previous boss and that it "should be no problem". I don't have to leave China. Great!

April 30th comes. I'm supposed to be out of China by midnight. No problem, both my previous and future employer say no worries. LOL. 5PM comes and my previous employer tells me I have to leave China immediately because they could do nothing about the new rules (they both claimed they had "pull" within the PSB hahahaha).

Yea. There is one flight out of Luoyang per day at 9AM and I wasn't able to make it. Ended up overstayed my residence permit by one f*cking day as I flew to Hong Kong. Apologize to the immigration personnel, who promptly stamps my passport without much of a word and off I go. OK, cool. An overstay of one day is not that big of a deal, right?

LOL. So, I'm in Hong Kong now. Head straight to one of the more well-known visa agencies. Fill in paperwork for L-tourist visa. Come back next day. DENIED. Why? One-day overstay. Agency assures me that I can re-enter on a business F-visa for 6,000HKD. Have to wait 2 weeks however.

In the meantime my school has been getting all the documents ready for my z-visa. In about 10 days one of my foreign co-workers will come down to HK and apply for his Z-visa as well (we are applying at the same time).

HOWEVER,

My gf has been calling various visa agencies non-stop and getting different answers on the possibility of my Z-visa being rejected. Multiple agencies are saying there are no guarantees b/c of my overstay. The high school is assuring me that all is well as this is a government run school, they have all the documents it should be no problem.

Anybody want to chime in? What are my chances of getting the Z-visa? It's a one-day f*cking overstay....the local PSB officer in Luoyang told me it should have been no problem...but what does she know??

I don't want to wait another 10 days for the documents to arrive, have them get rejected, THEN apply for a business F-visa and spend 6,000 HKD for that.
Title: Re: Visa Difficulties (in bad situation)
Post by: The Local Dialect on May 11, 2014, 03:34:02 PM
I don't think the one day overstay should hurt your Z visa application, but you never know because TIFC.

I would still go the Z visa route first because even if you do get an F visa, you'll have to get it changed to a Z visa (and then residence permit after that) eventually. Working on an F visa is not a viable long term solution.
Title: Re: Visa Difficulties (in bad situation)
Post by: josephaaroncampbell on May 11, 2014, 04:33:13 PM
Thanks for the reply.

That is what I'm thinking too. I'll have to write some sort of "apology/explanation" letter with my Z-visa application but I don't see why it should be rejected. My gf however has been blowing up various visa agencies who say otherwise and who seem to be pressing the business visa (maybe because of higher cost?).
Title: Re: Visa Difficulties (in bad situation)
Post by: bobrage on May 12, 2014, 01:10:56 AM
I am assuming that your new job is in the same province. 

The 30 day run-up for RP transfer has been on the cards since well before the 2013 changes - your employer doesn't know what they are doing and neither does your new employer. 

Sadly, this is all too common as the SAFEA office of your particular province is particularly crap at ensuring that staff in authorised work units know what they are doing. 

Have you considered that the main reason your L visa was rejected was probably because you intended to work in China rather than be a tourist.  I mean, the guy at the embassy (or whatever it's called in HK) would have to be an idiot to assume that after years spent working in China, you suddenly want to come in under a tourist visa from HK just to see the Longmen Grottoes ... "Oh and a 1 day overstay gives me the excuse to bat this into the long grass.  Nice."

The various parties may very well be correct in suggesting that a Z Visa application will be fine because at least then you'd be entering the country under the correct documentation.  If they already have your Work Permit then things should be okay. 

But....then again, you have now been rejected for a visa (your L) and that's another demerit and a short order application for a Z visa would make it flamingly obvious that your L was an attempt to enter the country fraudulently.  I don't think they'll actually do the math on this if your working documents are squared away though.

Your apology letter should, ideally, be in Chinese as well as English and feature the AELNs and addresses of the institutions involved with the invitation to contact them for further discussion should there be any questions. 

At the base of the page you should draw a picture of a kowtowing Hello Kitty! character.   

But seriously, they have a second foreign worker doing a HK visa run?  In May? 

Lol, HK visa runs are sooooo 2000-late. 
Title: Re: Visa Difficulties (in bad situation)
Post by: Stil on May 12, 2014, 02:24:08 AM

Have you considered that the main reason your L visa was rejected was probably because you intended to work in China rather than be a tourist.  I mean, the guy at the embassy (or whatever it's called in HK) would have to be an idiot to assume that after years spent working in China, you suddenly want to come in under a tourist visa from HK just to see the Longmen Grottoes ... "Oh and a 1 day overstay gives me the excuse to bat this into the long grass.  Nice."


Residence permits use to be a year but now many of them are shorter so it's pretty common for foreign teachers at the end of their contract to get a tourist visa and travel around China for the summer before heading back to their home country. Though what you say is possible.
Title: Re: Visa Difficulties (in bad situation)
Post by: bobrage on May 12, 2014, 02:57:56 AM
The L you get at the expiration of an RP is a 0 entry L visa, valid for 30 days and intended to cover your exit from China.  Application of this is spotty as many places prefer not to bear the expense or hassle of bothering with this and just boot people out at the end of their contracts.

If you want to bum around for a month before going home, that's what you do.  You don't go to HK for a new visa.  Normally.
Title: Re: Visa Difficulties (in bad situation)
Post by: josephaaroncampbell on May 12, 2014, 03:03:10 AM
New and old employer both (on separate occasions) took me to the local PSB in Luoyang to transfer the last week of my RP. Lady at PSB informed me I HAD to leave China. No transfer no L no nothing.

Did I have to apply 30 days prior to get the automatic 0 entry L???

Thanks for the advice BTW. :)
Title: Re: Visa Difficulties (in bad situation)
Post by: bobrage on May 12, 2014, 03:14:13 AM
The 30 day 0 L is an optional thing, normally.

But yes, the normal transfer procedure from Employer A to Employer B begins thirty days prior to the natural expiry of the documents obtained by Employer A, at which point Employer A issues a release letter or cancels your FEC.  You then apply for a new FEC under the auspices of Employer B (possibly involving a new medical) and then this is used to obtain a new RP. 

SAFEA in your province will normally turn around a FEC application in five working days, no more than ten.  E/E PSB issues RPs within 15 days.

The application for the new RP must be submitted before the current one expires, but only the application.

I think there are two possible scenarios: 

What happened was that the new employer didn't apply for your new FEC until too late and shat the bed when they realized that they didn't have all of the documentation ready: tried to squeeze it through and failed.
...
or
...
What happened was that the old employer didn't issue your release letter/cancel your FEC despite being asked to do so in good time and therefore your new employer was unable to apply for the new FEC. 

Either way, your new employer dropped the ball big time, so you might want to watch that.

But in your particular province there are precious few people who actually know what's going on, so I wouldn't be too hard on them. 
Title: Re: Visa Difficulties (in bad situation)
Post by: Borkya on May 12, 2014, 04:48:11 AM
I'm sorry I have no advice, but this is an interesting story to follow, and I hope you tell us what happens. I think the reason no one can give you a clear answer is because there is no clear answer. The visa laws have been changing fast and furious and no one knows what to do, or what's right/wrong. Yet everyone is afraid of doing the wrong thing and getting wrath from their boss (which is why I think 'no' comes out more often then 'yes.' It's safer.)

So good luck and keep us updated!
Title: Re: Visa Difficulties (in bad situation)
Post by: teacheraus on May 12, 2014, 08:53:55 AM
I am about to do the transfer process between two employers for the 2nd time in the same city. The first time was 3 years ago, and there have been changes in the time it will take from the last time. It is actually between the same 2 employers. The estimated time for the final RP stage of the process this year is 3 weeks.... last year and the previous 5 times I have done it, it was 1 week. Because both of the employers in my case, have relatively good relationships it should not be a major problem... yet we are still going to be allowing 5-6 weeks to simply get through the process. Allowing for when offices are open... 1 week to cancel the FEC... 1 week to get the new FEC...  3 weeks to get the new RP. Probably thrown a medical in there somewhere... but that is a debatable issue at this stage. On paper required each year... but often only demanded every second year... not sure what the impact of the "new process" will be. This is in the same city, with 2 good employers, who are likely to cooperate. If either side does not... then this is a very painful process. Just be aware of how long it really can take even in a perfect situation.
Title: Re: Visa Difficulties (in bad situation)
Post by: josephaaroncampbell on May 12, 2014, 12:14:40 PM
Plan as of now is to write an apology/explanation letter concerning one day visa overstay. Get it translated and have my prior school put a stamp on it agreeing with its contents. Previous employer has agreed to do this. Also will put relevant contact details of both employers on letter.

With all the necessary Z-visa documents + this letter everyone at the high school is very confident that this should go through. Gf thinks visa agencies might be yanking my chain to get me to apply for the (much) more expensive business visa (they were all extremely confident that I would have no problems getting THAT).

I'll keep everyone informed.

Thanks for the replies. They have been very helpful. I'm feeling a little more confident about everything, but we will see. 
Title: Re: Visa Difficulties (in bad situation)
Post by: josephaaroncampbell on June 11, 2014, 06:27:51 AM
**Visa update**!!!


:)

So, I'm still in Hong Kong. :)

The school has applied for my Z-visa documents. Ran to Zhengzhou three times to process different things. Everything was approved (albeit taking way longer than the timeframe they initially cited)....

and...

...today they inform that the Education Bureau is delaying the final bit of my application process because...

get this...

...I have a Minor in "Homeland Security."

Dead serious. :)

Apparently the authorities in Zhengzhou have deemed me a national security risk or something. Seriously.

My MINOR from university 7 f*cking years ago was somehow deemed "very sensitive." I told them that they don't even know that means. I majored in Political Science, minored in Arabic and "Homeland Security". I took like 3 extra classes on Pakistani and Arabic terrorist groups for the extra minor. That's it.


So. I'm a spy. The worst in the world. A spy who teaches English in South Korea for nearly three years then teaches in Henan province at a crappy hokwon for a year then leaves and wants to get back in.


Is this not the most ridiculous thing you have heard?? LOL.
Title: Re: Visa Difficulties (in bad situation)
Post by: Noodles on June 11, 2014, 06:50:23 AM
Quote
Is this not the most ridiculous thing you have heard?? LOL.

I can not say if that is or is not the most ridiculous thing i have heard ababababab
Title: Re: Visa Difficulties (in bad situation)
Post by: josephaaroncampbell on June 11, 2014, 08:56:53 AM
Ok.

The authorities at large have officially rejected my visa.

Reason given: Too sensitive of a university minor as well bad relations between China and the United States.

LOL.
Title: Re: Visa Difficulties (in bad situation)
Post by: AMonk on June 11, 2014, 09:04:56 AM
 kkkkkkkkkk Sorry to hear this kkkkkkkkkk
Title: Re: Visa Difficulties (in bad situation)
Post by: BrandeX on June 12, 2014, 02:57:25 AM
Ok.

The authorities at large have officially rejected my visa.

Reason given: Too sensitive of a university minor as well bad relations between China and the United States.

LOL.
Meanwhile, someone who is an actual spy could have gotten the stamp of approval with a photoshopped degree that said "Communications" or something on it.
Title: Re: Visa Difficulties (in bad situation)
Post by: Escaped Lunatic on June 12, 2014, 03:44:10 AM
I was sort of under the impression that the study of homeland security was mainly about preventing bad things from happening.  Should MDs be excluded because they know all sorts of unusual ways to kill a person?

If it's spying they are worried about, anyone who studied journalism, photography, psychology, electronics, etc. should be excluded.
Title: Re: Visa Difficulties (in bad situation)
Post by: josephaaroncampbell on June 12, 2014, 04:59:54 AM
Yep. That was actually explained to the officer working our case but alas, no dice. Quite ridiculous.

My buddy's (we were working together) app is also being considered for rejection as he has previously been in the US Army.

My experience in Henan, with both of the schools that I have worked with as well as dealing with the powers-that-be there has NOT been impressive IN THE SLIGHTEST.

I have very few good things to say about the way things are done there and look forward to working in a different province. :)

Alas, now the job hunt begins. :)
Title: Re: Visa Difficulties (in bad situation)
Post by: Just Like Mr Benn on June 12, 2014, 06:03:54 AM
if it's any comfort, I'm firmly of the opinion that if you were a spy, you would be the worst spy in human history. In fact the major and sharing everything on the forum under your presumed real and full name would almost count as a classic double bluff. Perhaps you're the columbo of spies.
Title: Re: Visa Difficulties (in bad situation)
Post by: josephaaroncampbell on June 12, 2014, 06:35:09 AM
if it's any comfort, I'm firmly of the opinion that if you were a spy, you would be the worst spy in human history. In fact the major and sharing everything on the forum under your presumed real and full name would almost count as a classic double bluff. Perhaps you're the columbo of spies.

I said the same thing.

Worst spy ever!

Besides....who the f*ck goes to LUOYANG F*CKING HENAN PROVINCE TO SPY??????

I mean...come on.
Title: Re: Visa Difficulties (in bad situation)
Post by: Escaped Lunatic on June 12, 2014, 07:09:42 AM
Hmmmmnnn...  perhaps you are there to spy on their top secret goat herding techniques. ahahahahah
Title: Re: Visa Difficulties (in bad situation)
Post by: bobrage on June 13, 2014, 01:06:19 AM
Well this is hilarious.

I'd say the "security" story is so absurd that someone is bullshitting you.  But then again, anything is possible south of the Yellow River.

Quote from: josephaaroncampbell
Besides....who the f*ck goes to LUOYANG F*CKING HENAN PROVINCE TO SPY??????

Yeah, you really aren't a spy.
Title: Re: Visa Difficulties (in bad situation)
Post by: cruisemonkey on June 18, 2014, 08:49:10 PM
Besides....who the f*ck goes to LUOYANG F*CKING HENAN PROVINCE TO SPY??????

No one. Besides, you already know all the 'secrets' of living in 'Dirt Town' in a hillbilly province.
Title: Re: Visa Difficulties (in bad situation)
Post by: Borkya on June 19, 2014, 05:59:22 AM
Just when you think you've heard everything....

Sorry to hear you got denied though.  ananananan
Title: Re: Visa Difficulties (in bad situation)
Post by: Li Fu on June 20, 2014, 03:03:06 AM
 bibibibibi
I am unexpectedly going through my own nightmare. I put in all the requested paperwork last month to my new employer in Beijing in order to have a seamless RP transfer/renewal.
The visa guy in the HR department had a sudden serious medical problem, and someone else in the HR department with limited experience with getting visas/RPs has been trying her best, but the bottom line is that I will not have a new RP on July 1. My current RP expires on the 30th of June and I am in Shandong Province.
BJ told me to get an interim L visa, but the PSB in my SD city refuse to give me one and say that BJ PSB should give me an L visa. BJ PSB say that they can't give me an interim L visa either.
Meanwhile I am due to travel from SD to Beijing on the 24th, and BJ is telling me that even if I give my passport to the PSB on the 24th to process my new RP, that I will be on overstay after June 30th and fined every day until a new RP is issued to me.
Is this true???
OP I feel for you! agagagagag
Title: Re: Visa Difficulties (in bad situation)
Post by: teacheraus on June 20, 2014, 04:07:33 AM
As long as the RP application was in the hands of the PSB on the 30th... you would still be ok.  It needs to be submitted, not necessarily finished processing before the expiry date.  3 years ago, when I first transferred schools, the RP application was actually submitted on the final day (ie the day the old one expired), and approved a few days later.   Given the "new 3 week" processing time for residency permits this year... that is a very good thing. Who in Beijing has said that to you? I know it is definitely not the case where I am in any way, and my understanding was that this was the same across the country.  What is the problem now with you getting it processed? Is there any reason why it can't be submitted before the previous one expires?  My understanding would be, that if that happens then you do not need any other visa to cover you while it is being processed. They will even be able to give you "official" paperwork confirming they have your passport and are processing the RP, potentially covering you for when you need to use the passport.
Title: Re: Visa Difficulties (in bad situation)
Post by: bobrage on June 20, 2014, 05:56:30 AM
Certainly, in the past it has always been the case that handing your passport in prior to the date of expiry was all that was required: this year the local E/E PSB where I am actually requested that we process my RP renewal no earlier than 15 days in advance of its expiry.

However, I am not going to give any firm advice one way or the other because Beijing is doing all sorts of things these days. 

Further info. here, although it isn't definitive: http://www.bjgaj.gov.cn/eng/
Title: Re: Visa Difficulties (in bad situation)
Post by: Escaped Lunatic on June 20, 2014, 10:54:06 AM
I usually hand mine in about 2-4 days before expiry.  I don't want next year's being up for renewal any earlier than this years.  Sometimes doing this buys me an extra day or two on the new visa, sometimes not.  So far, no fines and no lost days using this method.
Title: Re: Visa Difficulties (in bad situation)
Post by: latefordinner on July 15, 2014, 02:42:59 PM
EL:
Quote
I usually hand mine in about 2-4 days before expiry.  I don't want next year's being up for renewal any earlier than this years.
Same here. If I pay for a one year visa, it should not become an 11 month visa just to suit some flackwit in an office.
That said however, I was given the same "rules have changed" notification here in Dalian. next year I intend to submit, not 15 days, but maybe 4 or 5 just to test the waters. unless I hear that someone has gotten burned for it. Canary in a coal mine.
Title: Re: Visa Difficulties (in bad situation)
Post by: teacheraus on July 15, 2014, 05:10:48 PM
I have never had a problem with this.... and the "one year" issue you have mentioned.  My RP usually simply runs until the end of the contract I have, and is usually applied for before the previous one runs out.. Sometimes that simply means that it actually shows as running for slightly more than 1 year.  Applying in advance does not necessarily mean that you will have just "one year" from when it is actually issued. I know that will possibly depend province to province but the new extended processing times on the RP's this year of 3 weeks (or so) do probably change things. Though it is certainly possible to apply as late as they will accept.
Title: Re: Visa Difficulties (in bad situation)
Post by: josephaaroncampbell on September 18, 2014, 05:50:26 PM
Well, I ended up coming back to the States, finding a (better) job in Hangzhou and best of all, a brand new Z-visa arrived today.

Sometimes you have to go through hell to get through heaven, lol.
Title: Re: Visa Difficulties (in bad situation)
Post by: AMonk on September 18, 2014, 06:28:18 PM
 agagagagag agagagagag Su-Weet  agagagagag agagagagag
Title: Re: Visa Difficulties (in bad situation)
Post by: cruisemonkey on September 18, 2014, 09:49:11 PM
See... there's always a 'silver lining' - much more to spy on in Hangzhou than Luoyang.
Title: Re: Visa Difficulties (in bad situation)
Post by: ericthered on October 14, 2014, 10:35:21 PM
Congrats。。 agagagagag agagagagag agagagagag Where in Hangzhou? That is also my stomping ground  agagagagag