Raoul's China Saloon (V4.0 Beta)

The Bar Room => The BS-Wrestling Pit => Topic started by: Escaped Lunatic on May 06, 2012, 06:08:06 AM

Title: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Escaped Lunatic on May 06, 2012, 06:08:06 AM
Ever seen one of your fellow expats do something (or keep doing something) so utterly stupid or despicable that you wanted to . . .

a.  aaaaaaaaaa
b.  bababababa the idiot
c.  die of embarrassment
d.  run away screaming
e.  all of the above
f.  other

Here's your chance to unload on those who go out of their way to bring shame on all things foreign here in the Big Silly.

Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: MK on May 06, 2012, 06:59:47 AM
1. The 'Indignant Laowai' - Folk who regularly lose their temper (or even get violent) due to any of the small cultural differences we all have to deal with - you know it's coming, you choose to live here, and you know you are not going to change an entire culture, so enough with the little temper tantrums.  And certainly don't get me involved in an entirely avoidable fight that YOU started, OK?

2. The 'Self Identified "ZhongGuo Tong"'. They know more about China and Chinese culture than you, and they want to let you and everybody else know about it.  Can even be found lecturing their students and Chinese 'friends' on all subjects Chinese.  Why yes, this person is from Nanjing, I am sure there is only one subject they really want to talk about...

3. Similarly, the 'Language Expert'; often they have pretty shitty basic Chinese but somehow believe they are fluent, and insist on demonstrating this false belief at any and every opportunity, even when it's clear the person they are talking to has excellent English and is clearly not understanding them.   Even worse is when they will randomly 'intervene' in a conversation to 'translate' for you without being asked...this actually happened to me once when I was talking to my GF in English and some ass-wipe decided we needed help...  bababababa
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Fozzwaldus on May 06, 2012, 08:30:51 AM
Even worse is when they will randomly 'intervene' in a conversation to 'translate' for you without being asked...this actually happened to me once when I was talking to my GF in English and some ass-wipe decided we needed help...  bababababa

oh man, what a dick.

may I add:

Newspaper Goggles Laowai -

is a real China watcher, reads about China constantly in western publications, and then applies this shrieking hysteria to his every interaction with a culture that he misinterprets at every turn. really can't believe that the Chinese haven't risen up yet. often lectures his class on inappropriate topics.

Disgruntled Western Woman -

is super bitchy to Chinese women for a variety of reasons, from perceived passivity and conforming to gender stereotypes, to just getting more attention from the western males.

Happy Clappy Newby -

'if you don't like it you can always go home'

Overly Negative Long Stay Burnout -

really ought to go home, but is stuck in a loveless marriage or has no prospects back in the west

Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: psd4fan on May 06, 2012, 08:47:01 AM
1. Talk about how "awesome" Shanghai is because of all the expats.
2. Mention the best thing about Shanghai is the Bubba's BBQ joint that serves the best brisket.

If those are your reasons for loving a place get the fak out and go back from whence thou slithered.
An ex co-worker posted these on her FB page.  aaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaa
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: babala on May 06, 2012, 10:49:20 AM
The foreigner who insists on correcting my Chinese.

The Canadian who constantly feels the need to America bash.

The foreigners who are convinced that since someone here told them they are beautiful/good-looking then it must be true.

Guys who are with a Chinese woman who doesn't speak the best English and make degrading sexual remarks to her that she doesn't understand and then laugh with their friends.

Guys who will give you a hard time for dating a Chinese man but yet they date Chinese women.

Guys who brag about going to the hooker bars (really, you think having to pay for it is something to be proud of mmmmmmmmmm

Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: The Local Dialect on May 06, 2012, 01:21:44 PM
To add to the Zhongguo Tong/language expert, the guys who insist on speaking in Erhua-yin ALL the damn time, even when they aren't in Beijing and it is completely inappropriate. His close cousin is the asshole who speaks to other foreigners in Chinese. All the time. He has also been known to introduce himself to other foreigners using his Chinese name, which is usually something douchey. Met a guy the other day whose Chinese name was "shuai ge." You're awesome dude, really.

The guy who is just here for the girls. Remarks often and loudly about how Chinese women are so much more __________ (insert favorite trait here) than Western women. Fetishizes Chinese women and lumps them all together making remarks like "Chinese women really know how to take care of a man." They also tend to have an irrational hatred for Chinese men and will make remarks about penis size and how Chinese women never go back to Chinese men after they've had a "real man." Often has a Chinese girlfriend who he can't communicate with. Extra points if he met her in a KTV or a disco.

The "Orientalist." Wears Chinese cut suits and has a house full of crappy scroll paintings. Is learning Chinese calligraphy, the erhu and Tai-qi. Probably lives in a courtyard house, or wishes he/she could. Considers himself a Buddhist and makes offerings at the temple. Has fully embraced Chinese traditional medicine, gets accupuncture and medicinal massages and has even gone in for cupping a few time.  It is important to note that any one of these things on its own is not irritating, it is embracing everything traditionally Chinese or "exotic" that crosses the line into objectification. Funny you never see these guys into long pinky nails or state controlled media or big stupid hairbows or struggle sessions, huh?
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Fozzwaldus on May 06, 2012, 03:33:40 PM
The guy who is just here for the girls. Remarks often and loudly about how Chinese women are so much more __________ (insert favorite trait here) than Western women. Fetishizes Chinese women and lumps them all together making remarks like "Chinese women really know how to take care of a man." They also tend to have an irrational hatred for Chinese men and will make remarks about penis size and how Chinese women never go back to Chinese men after they've had a "real man." Often has a Chinese girlfriend who he can't communicate with. Extra points if he met her in a KTV or a disco.

The "Orientalist." Wears Chinese cut suits and has a house full of crappy scroll paintings. Is learning Chinese calligraphy, the erhu and Tai-qi. Probably lives in a courtyard house, or wishes he/she could. Considers himself a Buddhist and makes offerings at the temple. Has fully embraced Chinese traditional medicine, gets accupuncture and medicinal massages and has even gone in for cupping a few time.  It is important to note that any one of these things on its own is not irritating, it is embracing everything traditionally Chinese or "exotic" that crosses the line into objectification. Funny you never see these guys into long pinky nails or state controlled media or big stupid hairbows or struggle sessions, huh?

yes and yes. although (unfortunately) the former is much more common than the latter.

big stupid hairbows I don't get this reference

struggle sessions do these still happen??? (sorry, I might have missed out on some irony here)

Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: The Local Dialect on May 06, 2012, 04:00:14 PM
The big hairbows seem to be the big fad here among the 19-20 year old girl set. My niece and all her young friends wear them all the time. I was trying to think of a Chinese fashion fad and that's what came to mind. Probably not the best example. Maybe I should have said skin colored calf socks or black gloves in 35 degree weather. ;)

Struggle sessions don't actually happen anymore (or else some of the people mentioned in this thread would be in trouble), but then neither do Chinese people wear tang zhuang unless they're taking wedding photos. China is all fun and games ... until you find yourself in the airplane position with a placard around your neck.   
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: MK on May 06, 2012, 04:03:42 PM
Quote
...house full of crappy scroll paintings...

Uh-oh....well, I bought them when I first came and they still fill a space!  I also have a lot of dragon/nature/Buddhist themed tourist tat...I can't help it!
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: The Local Dialect on May 06, 2012, 04:15:49 PM
LOL, MK, I'm guilty of having a few scroll paintings too. My husband hates on them all the time, says he could do better paintings, that those people are hawking their crappy paintings on the street for a reason, and that's because they're shitty artists and foreigners just don't know any better because we're all like "oh sweet, a painting of an old guy and a mountain, so authentic!" Have you ever noticed that if Chinese people have scroll paintings they're either sentimental, because someone's grandfather did them, or they're totally badass paintings that definitely did not come from the 20RMB bin at Liulichang (not that I have any direct experience with said 20RMB bin mind you ... )?
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Fozzwaldus on May 06, 2012, 04:38:24 PM
China is all fun and games ... until you find yourself in the airplane position with a placard around your neck.   

put that shit on a tshirt
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: George on May 06, 2012, 06:34:43 PM
Teachers who drop all articles when talking to Chinese.....Did you take bus? Where is railway station?....etc!
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Fozzwaldus on May 06, 2012, 11:41:07 PM
laowais whose Chinese name contains dragon...

Big Dragon

Small Dragon

White Dragon

etc...
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: kitano on May 07, 2012, 02:23:22 AM
The foreigners who are convinced that since someone here told them they are beautiful/good-looking then it must be true.

Double this for 'a great singer'

I worked with a guy a few years ago who used to serenade people in the office and so on, he even knew Chinese songs!

He did it to western girls as well, he knew a song in German and sang it to Germans we knew, of course the Germans were quite a bit less impressed than the Chinese....

tbh this might just be me being a misery guts, I hate talent shows and stuff, why can't people just sit in their houses and drink like me?
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: MK on May 07, 2012, 03:40:56 AM
Quote from: Kitano
performing foreigners

Then count me in as a misery guts too...I think it's the fact that a mediocre (some might say non-existent) talent is elevated to a higher level simply because it's a foreigner doing it, and then as has been noted certain Laowai start to believe their own myth until their ego and personality are just out of control...
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Pashley on May 07, 2012, 03:48:02 AM
There is earlier discussion on a similar theme here: http://raoulschinasaloon.com/index.php?topic=855.0

The ones that really get my hackles up are the Western lads that treat Chinese women badly, in particular the ones that seem utterly unaware of the notion of 'face' and either don't realise or don't care that something they say could hurt a lot.

From a Brit to a lass who had referred to herself as his girlfriend, "You're not my girlfriend. You're just someone I'm screwing." Now, like many men, I've sometimes thought approximately that about certain women. I can even imagine myself telling a woman that if irritated by excessive possessiveness; it does not seem at all likely, but not impossible. However, I cannot imagine saying it in public, in front of a group of mutual friends.

Then there was the American who had visited a small town near the city we were in and extensively sampled the "massage" shops. Apparently the girls were young, pretty, enthusiastic and cheap. Not particularly skilled, but you can't have everything. I can understand telling other men about that; some of us want to know and the rest might just enjoy colourful stories. I can understand telling your girlfriend about it, depending on the sort of relationship you have. But telling everyone about it in a bar, at a table with your girlfriend and several other women? How could he be that stupid?
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: BrandeX on May 07, 2012, 04:07:21 AM
The foreigners who are convinced that since someone here told them they are beautiful/good-looking then it must be true.

Double this for 'a great singer'

I worked with a guy a few years ago who used to serenade people in the office and so on, he even knew Chinese songs!

He did it to western girls as well, he knew a song in German and sang it to Germans we knew, of course the Germans were quite a bit less impressed than the Chinese....

tbh this might just be me being a misery guts, I hate talent shows and stuff, why can't people just sit in their houses and drink like me?
Hey, I do! But, I probably fit into the "Overly Negative Long Stay Burnout" category these days anyway. (non-marriage related)
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: babala on May 07, 2012, 05:42:17 AM
Foreigners who assume that just because their Chinese level may be higher than mine that they know everything about China and Chinese culture. My Chinese may not be the greatest but I do know quite a bit about China.

I'm with MK, also hate anyone who uses dragon in their Chinese name. Douches kkkkkkkkkk
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: fullricebowl on May 07, 2012, 06:54:24 AM
- Foreigners who assume Chinese people know nothing about the world outside of China (probably like their own view of countries outside their homeland)
-Foreigners with virtually no Chinese ability who sprinkle extremely simple Chinese words into their English conversations with Chinese people- so they can "understand them better"??

I had actually considered starting a similar thread a few weeks ago after overhearing a particularly annoying expat lecturing an innocent student helper who hand somehow gotten roped into going to dinner with this guy.

"Yeah, in America I drive everywhere. You know, kai che"
"Lots of Chinese people want to work in America, I have a lot of contacts over there"
"I'm pretty thirsty, better ke shui; ermph, he shui"

Perhaps the conversation I overheard that made me most embarrassed of my fellow countrymen was in the Guilin airport with some Americans chatting with what appeared to be their Chinese tour guide:

"Woah, there are mountains in China too. You know, America has a lot of mountains."

Look, I know I said a lot of stupid things when I first arrived to. Let me self-depreciate a bit:
"Wow, we have muffins in the US too. There, they are like small cakes." -FRB, off the plane 1 week. Helpful Chinese student, "Yeah.. I they are like that here too"

I guess we all have a lot of preconceived notions before we get here- in my mind, China was the furthest place from the tiny town in Wisconsin where I grew up and I didn't think anything here would relate to my life back in the states. But we'd probably all look a little better if we learned a few things before the hop over.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Escaped Lunatic on May 07, 2012, 07:10:44 AM
The "Orientalist." Wears Chinese cut suits and has a house full of crappy scroll paintings.

Damnit!  Stop using me as an example. llllllllll

laowais whose Chinese name contains dragon...

Big Dragon

Small Dragon

White Dragon

etc...

 llllllllll asasasasas llllllllll asasasasas

Any objections to Paper Dragon?  Some famous guy already used Paper Tiger in a quote. ahahahahah

Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Crippler on May 07, 2012, 07:10:55 AM
Foreigners who allow other foreigners to drive them insane.  bibibibibi
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: old34 on May 07, 2012, 07:17:30 AM
Foreigners who allow other foreigners to drive them insane.  bibibibibi

Wot he said.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Stil on May 07, 2012, 07:33:09 AM
This is a great thread. I'm taking notes and if and when I meet you, I'll know exactly how to annoy you all.  uuuuuuuuuu
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Nolefan on May 07, 2012, 07:40:13 AM
Foreigners who allow other foreigners to drive them insane.  bibibibibi

yup!!
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Chief on May 07, 2012, 08:37:21 AM
I spent 3 weeks in Beijing before going to my school with some friends seeing the sights and partying.
I met quite a few young western males who were just in China "Cos the women are well easy", "Lets go to propoganda the women love white men there" "Chinese women love me blah blah" really wound me up.

Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: opiate on May 07, 2012, 09:50:02 AM
-Foreigners with virtually no Chinese ability who sprinkle extremely simple Chinese words into their English conversations with Chinese people- so they can "understand them better"??


I do that in my sleep according to my wife.  uuuuuuuuuu


*edit - douchebaggery removed.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Escaped Lunatic on May 07, 2012, 10:54:06 AM
The Canadian who constantly feels the need to America bash.

Damned Kanuckistanis! asasasasas

Quote
The foreigners who are convinced that since someone here told them they are beautiful/good-looking then it must be true.

My Chinese friends would never lie to me, so I must truly be an amazingly handsome fellow. ababababab

Quote
Guys who will give you a hard time for dating a Chinese man but yet they date Chinese women.

I'm fine with it if you want to date Chinese guys, but would find it more of a turn on to think about you dating Chinese girls.  afafafafaf
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: fullricebowl on May 07, 2012, 01:01:28 PM
Talking to me would make your head explode I bet haha. I do things like that but it really is not for them, it's for me.

Sorry, I didn't mean for it to come across like that. It wasn't that he was so cocky and boastful about everything- his country was so awesome, he knew everything about China, and was some sort of language expert.

Sometimes it can be really difficult to look at the positives. There are lots of things that I like about China, but it can be hard to see them sometimes when you have a bad week at work or whatever. It can be encouraging to see that other people are in the same boat. Sorry if these posts seem to be annoying so many people.

Seems I need to relax with a little zen meditation, tai chi, perhaps some calligraphy....
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Fozzwaldus on May 07, 2012, 01:12:51 PM
ach this thread's just a little fun, no harm in it  agagagagag

I have done a lot of those annoying know-it-all things at one time or another, it makes me cringe to think about what a dick I was in my 20s.  kkkkkkkkkk

Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: opiate on May 07, 2012, 01:44:08 PM
Talking to me would make your head explode I bet haha. I do things like that but it really is not for them, it's for me.

Sorry, I didn't mean for it to come across like that. It wasn't that he was so cocky and boastful about everything- his country was so awesome, he knew everything about China, and was some sort of language expert.

Sometimes it can be really difficult to look at the positives. There are lots of things that I like about China, but it can be hard to see them sometimes when you have a bad week at work or whatever. It can be encouraging to see that other people are in the same boat. Sorry if these posts seem to be annoying so many people.

Seems I need to relax with a little zen meditation, tai chi, perhaps some calligraphy....

I did not believe you had any bad meaning and I had no bad feelings about what you said. In reading my post again I was a bit of a douche. Sorry about that. I don't want to shit up the thread.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: The Local Dialect on May 07, 2012, 01:53:53 PM
Hey, if we can vent about the locals, we can vent about ourselves, right? In fact, venting about ourselves is even more fun than venting about the poor locals. We know these people. We are these people.

Like Fozz, I've had my asshole moments. I'm sure most of us have. I'm pretty sure I was an insufferable know-it-all China apologist in my 20s, and I can be pretty smug about speaking Chinese. I remember getting into a pretty cringeworthy online argument about T*bet about 5 years back.  

So, back on track. This is probably, for me, one of the most irritating types of foreigner -- the "in search of authenticity" laowai. The guy who refuses to set foot in a Western restaurant because "this is China, why would you cross oceans to eat that stuff?" The same guy who begrudges China their McD's and their Wal-Marts (Wal-Mart in China? Cultural imperialism!). He goes on vacations to shitholes because they're "untouched by Western commercialism," and, if he happens to see another foreigner on his travels, he studiously avoids them because he has to believe he is the first foreigner the villagers have ever seen. This guy is constantly in search of the "real China." That's a phrase that totally shits me. Real China? As opposed to what, the fake China where most of us live? Fuck off.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: babala on May 07, 2012, 02:23:27 PM
Foreigners who don't know me and speak Chinese to me. I totally get it if you are both studying Chinese but when I used to work at the bar and a foreigner would come in and order in bad Chinese. This one guy used to ask for his beer in Chinese but 2x in a row got it wrong so I would open a beer for him and then he would tell me in English "oh no, that's not what I wanted" llllllllll

Western women who think that every Chinese man should automatically want them and are shocked and offended when a guy doesn't fall all over them.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: opiate on May 07, 2012, 02:55:46 PM
-Foreign guys in traditional Chinese clothes. An attractive foreign chick can wear a qipao (sexy Chinese dress) and look amazing but the guys just look retarded with traditional clothes.
-The folks who live here for years and still can't speak 8 words of Chinese.
-I don't know how to explain this one well and I saw only one guy do it (in a photo at my school) but I can't forget it. Every time I see the photo I have the urge to track him down and kick him in the teeth. It's a group photo of about 30 staff members all smiles, FT' and CT's. This clown is standing in the front of the group in a subservient bowing position with one fist in the palm of his other hand.

That guy can likely now be found searching for the 'real' China.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: zero on May 07, 2012, 06:39:07 PM
I know this is a hard fact to face, and it took me a long time to come to grips with it. But there's pretty much no way for a foreigner to use Chinese, in any amount or any situation, without looking like a big douche. There, I said it.

Edit: corrected typo.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Stil on May 07, 2012, 11:08:57 PM

I know this is a hard fact to face, and it took me a long time to come to grips with it. But there's pretty much know way for a foreigner to use Chinese, in any amount or any situation, without looking like a big douche. There, I said it.


I don't get this.... What do you mean?
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Fozzwaldus on May 07, 2012, 11:31:12 PM
He means there's no way for a laowai to use Chinese without looking stupid.

I mean, it's hard to look cool in any foreign language, but there are ways, and I think the Chinese are more generous than most in attempting to get along with pidgin mandarin, if they can't speak English that is.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: tomhume89 on May 08, 2012, 02:51:09 AM
I think I agree with pretty much everything everyone has said in this thread.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Escaped Lunatic on May 08, 2012, 08:06:04 AM
So, back on track. This is probably, for me, one of the most irritating types of foreigner -- the "in search of authenticity" laowai. The guy who refuses to set foot in a Western restaurant because "this is China, why would you cross oceans to eat that stuff?" The same guy who begrudges China their McD's

Is it ok to avoid McD's worldwide because it sucks?  I'd kicked the McD's habit back in 2004.  The last 2 times I ate a burger there were in 2006 in China.  The quality hadn't improved. aaaaaaaaaa

Quote
and their Wal-Marts (Wal-Mart in China? Cultural imperialism!).

I despise Wal-Mart in all countries, but somehow I still end up shopping there. kkkkkkkkkk

Quote
He goes on vacations to shitholes because they're "untouched by Western commercialism," and, if he happens to see another foreigner on his travels, he studiously avoids them because he has to believe he is the first foreigner the villagers have ever seen.

I think I do qualify as the first foreigner who ever moved into the village.  I was a little surprised to bump into a very nice guy from South Africa who recently started teaching at the local kindergarten.

Quote
This guy is constantly in search of the "real China." That's a phrase that totally shits me. Real China? As opposed to what, the fake China where most of us live?

How about The Somewhat More Classical and Traditional China as opposed to the more westernized parts of modern China?  bjbjbjbjbj

-Foreign guys in traditional Chinese clothes. An attractive foreign chick can wear a qipao (sexy Chinese dress) and look amazing but the guys just look retarded with traditional clothes.

I guess I shouldn't show you my collection of Chinese jackets.  The nicer ones have dragon embroidered on them. ababababab

Quote
-The folks who live here for years and still can't speak 8 words of Chinese.

Thank goodness I made it up to 25 words. ahahahahah

Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: The Local Dialect on May 08, 2012, 08:33:52 AM
EL, it is fine if you don't want to eat at McD's because they suck, but I'd give you the sideye if you never ever set foot in any Western restaurant and criticized those who do. It is also fine if Chinese people do like their McD's and Wal Mart. The franchises wouldn't have survived here if Chinese people weren't into them. They're the ones whose opinions really count.

The thing about the "Somewhat more classical and traditional China" is that, for a lot of the locals living in our pastoral paradises, life isn't really all that great. A lot of them would much rather have "westernized, modern China" where there is at least somewhat decent medical care, where kids don't have to walk 3 hours through the mountains to get to school, where women can do something besides get married at 20 and start popping out (their legally allotted number of) babies, where guys can actually make a living doing something other than backbreaking fieldwork. And yes, there are some well to do villages and some who remain in the village by choice, but the overwhelming number of rural migrant workers in the cities can attest to the fact that many want more out of life than what the countryside can offer.

Westerners can enjoy countryside living because we come from a position of immense privilege compared to most rural Chinese. Begrudging Chinese the right to modernize their country because we want China to stay quaint and traditional, picture postcard perfect, well that's just really pretty much the height of Western arrogance. I'm not talking about you personally EL, but I do think that when we start idealizing certain aspects of traditional China, we should also realize that traditional China was not really all that nice a place for all but a very select few.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Escaped Lunatic on May 08, 2012, 09:14:26 AM
EL, it is fine if you don't want to eat at McD's because they suck, but I'd give you the sideye if you never ever set foot in any Western restaurant and criticized those who do.

I only criticize Chinese parents who are making their little darlings into balls of lard by feeding them McMeals 20 times a week. ahahahahah

On the other hand, I'm not exactly an unknown person at the local Papa John's Pizza. agagagagag

Quote
It is also fine if Chinese people do like their McD's and Wal Mart. The franchises wouldn't have survived here if Chinese people weren't into them. They're the ones whose opinions really count.

My main objection to WalMart applies to WalMarts anywhere.  It's like one of those invasive plants that slowly pushes out all the other competition and leaves a monoculture where once there had been a diverse ecosystem.  Just to make it less pleasant, Wal Marts in the US seem to have picked up ideas on how to mistreat employees from 3rd world sweatshops.

But I still shop there a lot of the time. kkkkkkkkkk

Quote
The thing about the "Somewhat more classical and traditional China" is that, for a lot of the locals living in our pastoral paradises, life isn't really all that great. A lot of them would much rather have "westernized, modern China" where there is at least somewhat decent medical care, where kids don't have to walk 3 hours through the mountains to get to school, where women can do something besides get married at 20 and start popping out (their legally allotted number of) babies, where guys can actually make a living doing something other than backbreaking fieldwork.

I wholly agree.  I've seen some rural villages that were . . .  less than pleasant places to live.  I just hate the thought of replacing an entire way of life with a modern, westernized one instead of trying to see what can be done about correcting the serious issues and improving people's lifestyles while preserving as much of the local culture and architecture as feasible.

It's not just the quaint rural areas.  How many of those hutongs are left in Beijing?  Should we relegate those to one tiny area just for tourists?  To relegate a lifestyle that's existed for hundreds of years to museum status is a disturbing concept. kkkkkkkkkk  Sure, a 20 story apartment building is a much more efficient usage of space.  If we use efficiency as the only standard, there are a lot of cultural treasures around the world that should be bulldozed to make room for another Wal-Mart and/or apartment buildings.

Wander around the non-tourist zones of a major international city (tourist zones may be fascinating, but are somewhat artificial by their very nature). Let's say New York and London as example).  Then head to a smaller, less international city in the same country.  The "feel" of the place is probably different.  Is the smaller city more "real".  No.  Is it more like what that country would be expected to be in a traditional sense?  Probably.

It used to be easy to get an idea of what region of the US you were in by local architectural styles.  It's getting harder and harder.  It's usually pretty easy to tell what region of the world you are in from the local architecture.  Each year, that gets harder.

What if the whole world ends up being nothing but Walmarts, McD's, starbucks, and massive apartment buildings and offices?  What if all countries end up having their local cultures converge towards a single world standard?  What will be the point of traveling?
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: kitano on May 08, 2012, 09:52:32 AM
Personally I hate Walmart and KFC and never go into them at home or abroad. I did used to go to KFC and McDonalds when I was first in China because I wanted a sandwich etc, McDonalds breakfast is beyond reproach imo and if I still worked near a Maccy D I would get my breakfast there for sure
It isn't the principle, I just think that they are rubbish, I would prefer some baozi to a KFC sandwich in a rush and chicken from one of the Taiwan style or barbeque places for fast food. I would still get McDonalds coffee if I was being a tourist because it's 10 and it's decent coffee, not KFC because it's Nescafe

Disagree about London though, London is one of the more interesting cities in England architecturally, most of the smaller cities in England are dominated by those ready made suburbs built by massive companies....
China is a really weird one because so much of their history was destroyed in the past 200 years or so by Chinese and invaders that the 'historical sites' all seem to have been built in the past 20 years. Their relationship with history is incredibly complicated I think, Mao was really against it but now it is so celebrated but Mao is kind of in the same category as a temple or something, it's strange.
Where I live and everywhere I have visited in China they are tearing down the badly built 70s and 80s buildings and making new buildings at an incredible rate, and people will probably miss it all when it's gone, but really it kind of sucks, noone wants to live in them, they leak and fill up with roaches and fall down.....
The HuTongs is different but the same thing happens everywhere, they will become rare and only rich people will live in them, that is happening to the countryside where I'm from, the rural people and a lot of the places in Newcastle as well are full of students and young professionals and don't have character cos noone invests in the place

what is to be done?
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Fozzwaldus on May 08, 2012, 09:55:50 AM
I'm sorry, but let's get this thread back on to things that EL does that drive us insane.  ahahahahah
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: The Local Dialect on May 08, 2012, 03:00:24 PM
EL, I agree with most of your last post actually. That's why we have things like ecotourism, free trade products, and UNESCO. I have friends who have pretty much made it their mission in life to promote local arts and culture, and my own husband has a side venture selling minority handcrafts from his part of the country. I love the old courtyard houses myself, and I love visiting places that are less modernized. When I moved to Kunming it was about 5 years after they'd totally destroyed the entire old city and remade it into the concrete mess that it is now and most people I know think it is a pity that they didn't even leave a tiny bit of it up, but then, how can you do that and at the same time preserve "authenticity?" If no one wants to live in the creaky old wooden (fire hazard) homes, and prefers a more modern, convenient, comfortable house, then the only real option you have is creating subsidized Old Towns like Dali or Lijiang, and people bitch about those being too touristy. It is very hard to have it both ways, but I do support programs that try.

I just think that where it gets a little bit dodgy is when foreigners who have no vested interest in the country come in and start telling the locals they're Doing It Wrong because they're more interested in having a decent standard of living than they are in preserving their cultural heritage. Probably most of us do not fall into that category, but a whole lot of backpackers who moan about the real China and such definitely do.

I also think Kitano makes a good point about China's relationship with history and preservation. These are complicated issues here.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: zero on May 08, 2012, 04:49:07 PM
There's so much money in the property development. You stand to make millions from a deal, and some foreign eco-hippies are complaining because you're going to bulldoze a dilapidated old hutong? "Authenticity" loses every time unless the government gets serious about protecting this stuff. Frankly, I don't see it happening. There isn't the public interest.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Escaped Lunatic on May 09, 2012, 01:40:01 AM
I'm sorry, but let's get this thread back on to things that EL does that drive us insane.  ahahahahah

Shall I dress up in my Chinese clothes and start trying to sound "More Chinese than thou"? ahahahahah

Actually, I kind of think the whole culture and architecture thing deserves a thread somewhere outside the BS wrestling pit.  If someone wants to start one, I'll be happy to participate.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: gonzo on May 09, 2012, 02:26:08 AM
FTs who try to undermine their colleagues, telling the students "their" particular accent, pronunciation and wacky grammar is more correct than the variant spoken by FTs from different countries, and that the students are lucky to have him/her teaching them. I won't go into specifics regarding main offenders here. I won't even identify Larry Orenstein from NY City who is probably still hanging around hairdressing joints trying to assert his flagging virility.

And echoing previous comments, the Zhongwen expert who either corrected other people's Chinese, or laughed outright, despite the fact that his [i.e. Larry's] pronunciation was so RS locals often couldn't understand him. Of course, this was put down to said locals being from backward provinces where they didn't speak the language properly.

Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Fozzwaldus on May 09, 2012, 02:49:07 AM
FTs who try to undermine their colleagues, telling the students "their" particular accent, pronunciation and wacky grammar is more correct than the variant spoken by FTs from different countries, and that the students are lucky to have him/her teaching them.

Yeah, you know what, I'd like to include all forms of laowai-laowai competition for praise from Chinese people. It's like the presence of other laowai dims the buzz they get from Chinese adulation/attention, on which the long ago got hooked. (again, have been guilty of this in the past... present...  bibibibibi)

Actually, I'd like to take it all back about EL, I love the idea of him living in a Chinese village, wearing Chinese outfits, growing weed on his roof, drinking baijiu and racing dragon boats. This isn't pretentious 'I'm an old China hand' behaviour, he's actually living the 19th century orientalist dream! I doff my hat to you sir!  bjbjbjbjbj
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: The Local Dialect on May 09, 2012, 03:13:06 AM
I'm sorry, but let's get this thread back on to things that EL does that drive us insane.  ahahahahah

Shall I dress up in my Chinese clothes and start trying to sound "More Chinese than thou"? ahahahahah

Actually, I kind of think the whole culture and architecture thing deserves a thread somewhere outside the BS wrestling pit.  If someone wants to start one, I'll be happy to participate.


You do it EL! Come on now, starting a serious thread Big Issues won't hurt your reputation as a loveable lunatic, I promise. Move the relevant threads from this discussion (or Copy/Paste, that way they can stay here too) if you need something to kick it off.  bfbfbfbfbf
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Escaped Lunatic on May 09, 2012, 04:43:38 AM
Instead of copy/pasting the posts themselves, I started a totally new topic.

http://raoulschinasaloon.com/index.php?topic=7507.0

A lot of the replies in this one covered more area than this and I'm too lazy to go through and edit them all. ahahahahah

FTs who try to undermine their colleagues, telling the students "their" particular accent, pronunciation and wacky grammar is more correct than the variant spoken by FTs from different countries, and that the students are lucky to have him/her teaching them.

This would be so much simpler if all FTs would just learn to speak World Standard EnglishTM.  Raoul is the living avatar of World Standard EnglishTM and I'm the self-proclaimed Emergency Backup Avatar of World Standard EnglishTM.  Follow our lead and your grammar and diction will be flawless. ahahahahah

Actually, I'd like to take it all back about EL, I love the idea of him living in a Chinese village, wearing Chinese outfits, growing weed on his roof, drinking baijiu and racing dragon boats. This isn't pretentious 'I'm an old China hand' behaviour, he's actually living the 19th century orientalist dream! I doff my hat to you sir!  bjbjbjbjbj

Not quite 19th century.  Someone wired this place for electricity and there are tiny little factories all over the village. ahahahahah

Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: gonzo on May 09, 2012, 07:48:44 AM
Fts who actually seem to like, and encourage, that scourge of foreign teachers, English Cornered. I'm sure Krashen didn't have this in mind with his Comprehensible Input Hypothesis. Unless he meant dickheads shouting barely comprehensible impertinent questions.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: kitano on May 09, 2012, 07:54:42 AM
Fts who actually seem to like, and encourage, that scourge of foreign teachers, English Cornered. I'm sure Krashen didn't have this in mind with his Comprehensible Input Hypothesis. Unless he meant dickheads shouting barely comprehensible impertinent questions.

This one like my singing one goes into my 'it's always f**king 'mericans' unfair prejudice

I hate having a new class or student because I will always have to tell them about where I am from and why I came to China and if I have a girlfriend etc etc etc but some people just love reeling off their little speech about themselves....
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Escaped Lunatic on May 09, 2012, 11:08:19 AM
I always had this urge to show up for English corner and hand out a sheet that said something like:

1.  America.

2.  Yes, I like Chinese food.  I'd have starved long ago if I didn't.

3.  I've been using chopsticks longer than you've been alive.  I'd have starved long ago if I couldn't use them.

4.  I don't follow basketball.  Your next questions is going to be about Yao Ming.  Yes, I am aware of Yao Ming.

5.  Bandits forced me to watch as my entire family was eaten by a pack of gerbils.  I prefer not to discuss my family.

6.  No.  Are you/your sister looking for a date?
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: babala on May 09, 2012, 02:14:35 PM
Here in Suzhou we have plenty of expats who work at companies here. I hate the guys who look down upon us teachers like we are one step up from dung beetles asasasasas
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: The Local Dialect on May 09, 2012, 02:58:17 PM
Here in Suzhou we have plenty of expats who work at companies here. I hate the guys who look down upon us teachers like we are one step up from dung beetles asasasasas

Ooh, that one irritates me too. You get a lot of those types in the big cities. I hear Shanghai is worse than Beijing for this, but the expat package expats here can be pretty snooty too. Yes, I'm "just" a teacher, no driver, no fancy house, no paid for tuition for my kids, but I'm not a loser or a drunk or someone who couldn't get a job back home (well, in this econony I'm not so sure about that one, but once upon a time, I could've gotten a job back home).

Related to this are the self-loathing teachers. I have a few real life friends like this, who really are down on themselves for being lowly teachers and who are constantly talking about getting out of teaching. I don't think there's anything wrong with teaching but most of my friends who fall into this category have no real experience doing anything else but they have these grandiose ideas that they should be able to get a job at a company and that when that happens they'll be, as my one friend used to (constantly!) say, "sorted." It is fine to have aspirations and if you hate teaching you probably shouldn't be doing it, but teaching is not a shameful profession unless you make it one! 
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: babala on May 09, 2012, 03:04:24 PM
I totally agree with LD.

Of course my company friends probably hate when they invite me out to these incredibly expensive restaurants (like 2000 yuan for king crab) and I look at them and point at myself and simply say "teacher"  kkkkkkkkkk
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: zero on May 09, 2012, 04:01:56 PM

I know this is a hard fact to face, and it took me a long time to come to grips with it. But there's pretty much know way for a foreigner to use Chinese, in any amount or any situation, without looking like a big douche. There, I said it.


I don't get this.... What do you mean?
If you speak it poorly, it sounds bad. If you speak it well, it sounds like you are trying awfully hard, because that kind of thing doesn't happen naturally. It's hard to come across as cool, calm and genuine when you are a whitey speaking Chinese. Even if you are humble, which most are not, it looks affected.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: gonzo on May 09, 2012, 10:11:41 PM
Understand what you hear around you, especially in class, but don't necessarily let on. Speak when you have to, but never in class. They're not paying for you to practice their language or to show off.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Stil on May 09, 2012, 10:27:28 PM


If you speak it poorly, it sounds bad. If you speak it well, it sounds like you are trying awfully hard, because that kind of thing doesn't happen naturally. It's hard to come across as cool, calm and genuine when you are a whitey speaking Chinese. Even if you are humble, which most are not, it looks affected.


Is that only for the chinese language? When people speak other languages as a second language do they also sound like douches? Is it only white foreigners? Is it a foreigner on foreigner view or is this a Chinese persons view as well?

I've not noticed this. Oh, I've met a few people that sounded like douches when the spoke Chinese but they also sounded like douches when they spoke English. I just assumed they were natural douches.


Understand what you hear around you, especially in class, but don't necessarily let on. Speak when you have to, but never in class. They're not paying for you to practice their language or to show off.


I never speak Chinese in class (people really do that?) and students assume I can neither speak nor understand, so they speak to each other in front of me about anything. You can learn a lot this way.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Pashley on May 10, 2012, 01:22:21 AM


Understand what you hear around you, especially in class, but don't necessarily let on. Speak when you have to, but never in class. They're not paying for you to practice their language or to show off.


I never speak Chinese in class (people really do that?) and students assume I can neither speak nor understand, so they speak to each other in front of me about anything. You can learn a lot this way.


It might be sensible to use some Chinese with utter beginners, I suppose.

I took French in first-year university, though you'd never know it from the way I speak it now. The prof was multi-lingual; he taught one grad course that involved reading Cervantes & Goethe in the original languages. He was also young, handsome and well-dressed; the girls in the class were quite obviously impressed.

In class, he spoke no English and claimed to know none. At one point, though, I ran into him at a party. He was speaking English to a knockout girl. His level was at least IELTS 7.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: zero on May 10, 2012, 03:02:46 AM
Is that only for the chinese language? When people speak other languages as a second language do they also sound like douches? Is it only white foreigners? Is it a foreigner on foreigner view or is this a Chinese persons view as well?
I don't know. Probably Chinese more than other languages, because it is more discordant with people's expectations. As to whose view, it is my view. I don't know about other people. I speak passable Chinese, though most likely not as well as many here, and I feel douchy when I do so. I like to, as stated above, just sit back and listen.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: MK on May 10, 2012, 03:51:59 AM
I think because there are relatively few foreigners (particularly white foreigners I guess) who speak 'good' Chinese (although this is changing and depends where you are), those who do often feel a sense of pride in their accomplishment which may come across as  superiority or even arrogance (AKA 'douchebaggery') to other foreigners.

There are also plenty of foreigners who falsely believe they are fluent language geniuses because they get praised every time they say anything more than 'ni hao', and because none of the other Laowai around them can speak more than a few gabled words.

Also, as someone who has been banging his head against the brick wall of intermediate Chinese for years, I'll admit a little jealousy of people who have made it to relative fluency.  Stop showing off dam it!
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: The Local Dialect on May 10, 2012, 04:25:12 AM
Oh I don't know, I've met plenty of foreigners who speak decent Chinese without sounding douchey. The douches, to me, tend to be the folks who affect really strong erhua-yin, and who try really hard to put on a Beijing or Dongbei accent, using a lot of regionalisms that they presume make their language more "standard." I think stuff like "ge-men-er" sounds kind of douchey coming out of a foreign mouth (apologies to anyone who uses it). You can certainly speak absolutely fine Chinese without sounding affected. A douchey Dongbei accent is not a prerequisite for speaking decent Chinese, and just because you use a douchey Dongbei accent doesn't make you fluent either.

I don't think people speaking beginner or intermediate level Chinese sound stupid either. We're language teachers here! What sort of message does that send to our students? As long as you're making an effort to learn how to say more than "pijiu" then you shouldn't feel like an idiot speaking Chinese. The Chinese themselves are very forgiving about this since they think their language is the hardest thing ever invented.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: gonzo on May 10, 2012, 06:30:00 AM
Apart from over, and unnecessary and inaccurate, use of varieties of "douche" in the above posts, isn't it fair to expect non Chinese in China to use their Chinese interlanguage in daily life, without being labelled? After all, we accept and expect ESL speakers in our fair lands to do their level best, and generally encourage and support them.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Stil on May 10, 2012, 07:12:22 AM
You are right gonzo.

Douche should be saved for only those people that publish the full name and the address of people they don't like on a public forum.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: kitano on May 10, 2012, 08:04:38 AM
I feel like a total douchebag that I still find really easy conversations difficult snf like when I learned Italian when I evertually do get to an acceptable level I am absolutely planning to go around asking shopkeepers stupid questions like 'where are these apples grown?' 'Is that an apple region?' etc

Learning Chinese is fucking difficult, from absolute scratch with no references and since it's not necessary anyone who manages it deserves credit imo

it might turn out that they are a total dick but still hats off
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: ericthered on May 10, 2012, 08:44:11 AM
I do not claim fluency in Chinese at all, but I do not feel like a douche when I speak it. On the contrary, when I go to the farmers market and can communicate to the stall-owners what I would like to purchase without resorting to pointing and eager nodding, I feel much the opposite of a douche. I am in China, people speak Chinese here...I would feel like a douche were I to attempt communication in Danish or English with any of the stall-owners...
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: The Local Dialect on May 10, 2012, 10:43:03 AM
I do not claim fluency in Chinese at all, but I do not feel like a douche when I speak it. On the contrary, when I go to the farmers market and can communicate to the stall-owners what I would like to purchase without resorting to pointing and eager nodding, I feel much the opposite of a douche. I am in China, people speak Chinese here...I would feel like a douche were I to attempt communication in Danish or English with any of the stall-owners...

I absolutely agree. I think it is far more douchey (sorry, gonna keep using that word, it seems to fit) to willfully refuse to learn a language and get irritated when people don't understand your English/sign language/pantomime combo. More douchey even than being pretentious or affecting a silly Chinese accent or trying to be the next Da Shan.

I get that Chinese is hard to learn and anyone who is making at least a minimal effort to use it should feel pretty good about themselves.

I really doubt we have any pretentious language jerks on this board, for the record. Those people tend to be students, not teachers. I think they are also very highly concentrated in and around Beijing.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: jpd01 on May 10, 2012, 10:57:05 AM
Whenever anyone is a straight up snob or dick about Chinese that does annoy me.
But I can't agree that foreigners that speak Chinese sound like douches. I'm in agreement with Kitano that anyone that puts in the effort to learn a language deserves some respect for being able to do it.
That being said language douches just tend to be douchebags that can speak a second language. It doesn't have anything to do with the person speaking French or Chinese just that they are plain old douches.

Sometimes I'll correct some of the newer teachers more dreadful attempts at Chinese but not anyone else. I have trouble with tones but no trouble with pronunciation like with initials and finals. And real fresh newbies tend to make a huge mess of those so I'll try to throw some helpful advise their way.
What annoys me is when they completely ignore it and just listen to Chinese people and disregard any good advice you might give them  about learning Chinese as a foreigner. Most Chinese are terrible at teaching Chinese to people but it seems to be the same effect with some foreigners as the white native teacher effect that Chinese people tend to have. 
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: old34 on May 10, 2012, 11:07:56 AM
Well, this douchebag learned his (limited Chinese) in his first three years in Dongbei. And with that, the retroflex (er and ar).

Living near Shanghai for the past few years, the "nali" and "zheli" as opposed to the northern "nar" and "zher"  grate on me here. So I "affect" the northern accent here. Call me a douchebag. ("Old, you're a douchebag!")

But I have a pronunciation point here: When I'm up north, I find the students who CAN speak English, speak a clearer form of English to my (American) ears. Because they often use the retroflex (er) and (ar) in their native dialect. Down Shanghai way, it's all (ah) and (eh) and their English comes out flat (to my ears).

So I DO retroflex (can I use that as a verb?) my "ers" and "ars" down here Shanghai-way to help them  (a) improve their American English pronunciation, and (b) help them improve their "official putonghua".

Old the Douche

 

Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: dragonsaver on May 10, 2012, 11:15:33 AM
I was taught the 'er when being taught Chinese.  I had a Chinese teacher not a student.  Because I lived in Dalian, it was the normal way to speak Chinese. Also, I was the only teacher in the group of teacher friends that spoke any Chinese (except Ni hao).  I was expected to order the food in the restaurants etc.  I was in an intermediate Chinese class but I had a LONG way to go to be fluent, partly because my vocabulary didn't include enough words. 
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: old34 on May 10, 2012, 11:26:03 AM
I was taught the 'er when being taught Chinese.  I had a Chinese teacher not a student.  Because I lived in Dalian, it was the normal way to speak Chinese. Also, I was the only teacher in the group of teacher friends that spoke any Chinese (except Ni hao).  I was expected to order the food in the restaurants etc.  I was in an intermediate Chinese class but I had a LONG way to go to be fluent, partly because my vocabulary didn't include enough words. 

None dare call you a douchebag. N'est ce pas?
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: The Local Dialect on May 10, 2012, 11:45:55 AM
Well, this douchebag learned his (limited Chinese) in his first three years in Dongbei. And with that, the retroflex (er and ar).

Living near Shanghai for the past few years, the "nali" and "zheli" as opposed to the northern "nar" and "zher"  grate on me here. So I "affect" the northern accent here. Call me a douchebag. ("Old, you're a douchebag!")

But I have a pronunciation point here: When I'm up north, I find the students who CAN speak English, speak a clearer form of English to my (American) ears. Because they often use the retroflex (er) and (ar) in their native dialect. Down Shanghai way, it's all (ah) and (eh) and their English comes out flat (to my ears).

So I DO retroflex (can I use that as a verb?) my "ers" and "ars" down here Shanghai-way to help them  (a) improve their American English pronunciation, and (b) help them improve their "official putonghua".

Old the Douche

 



You Old Douche!

Hey, if you learned it that way, you can't help it. You're forgiven. I learned Chinese saying "nali" and cutting off my "ngs" and confusing my "f" and "h" sounds and I don't do it on purpose but I can't really help it.  Although helping the Chinese in Shanghai improve their putonghua ... I'm gonna give you the side-eye on that one.  hmmhmm

I had a friend, on the otherhand, who learned his Chinese in the South, Yunnan, where I used to live. He went up to Beijing for one summer program and came back all er this and er that. We gave him a lot of shit about it because it did come off as totally affected, especially since he had only been in Beijing for about a month. No one down there had any interest in using erhua and it sort of confused things because people tended not to really understand it. I am positive the locals were thinking he was a douche because they told me as much. Same guy also sublet an apartment to my friend, who was an American too, and introduced himself over the phone in Chinese, using his Chinese name, gave her directions to the apartment in Chinese, and only stopped when she called him on it and asking why the hell they were speaking Chinese when they were both Americans and certainly important transactions like directions to the apartment and details about subletting would be best handled in English. This dude also went on to do a PhD in language douchery Chinese Literature and sometimes posts obscure stuff in Chinese on my facebook wall. This guy is pretty much the archetype for any and all bitching about foreigners and the Chinese language. So irritating, so pretentious.

If you listen to Chinese on CCTV news, they use the "er" only sparingly (words like "wan-er," 玩儿 or "na-er," 哪儿 where it is considered standard, but not words like "di-er" 地儿-- for "difang" 地方, like they do here in BJ). In Beijing it is everywhere, and it isn't standard Chinese, it is actually local dialect, but lots of students (when I'm talking about students here I mean students of Chinese -- foreigners -- I guess that wasn't clear. I don't care what variety of Chinese actual Chinese people are speaking) here think that this is the way you have to speak because obviously Beijing has the most "pure" putonghua, right?

I get a little bit ragey about this topic because I think people get too hung up on accent. We don't encourage that in English (I get annoyed with the "which accent is best" talk, who doesn't?) so we shouldn't really perpetuate the idea that one must speak like a Beijing taxi driver in order to be really fluent. Maybe that's just because I'll never sound like a Beijing taxi driver though and I would be pretty horrified if I did in any case.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Stil on May 10, 2012, 12:19:54 PM

Hey, if you learned it that way, you can't help it. You're forgiven. I learned Chinese saying "nali" and cutting off my "ngs" and confusing my "f" and "h" sounds and I don't do it on purpose but I can't really help it.
 

This is also how i've learned. The way God Mao himself spoke. (ok better than that)

I suppose an affected erhua accent could be compared to a kind upper crust speaking and so if you are a second language learner and put on a Kennedy going sailing in the Hamptons kind of accent, you might be viewed as a douchebag.

But isn't the term douchebag now reserved for that Italian, East coast, Jersey Shore, muscle head kind of guy with the spray on orange tan, 10 pounds of gel, 25 ponds of chains, wearing a wife beater and a duck-face pose?
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: BrandeX on May 10, 2012, 02:11:02 PM
+1 for erhua making locals sound like ignorant yokels to my ears, and foreigners who emulate that "super douchey"... lik eyou should be wearing Zubaz and a mullet douchey.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: ericthered on May 10, 2012, 02:18:35 PM
Actually, language purists would argue that there is really only one proper usage for the term "douche bag" which is, according to my OED, "a small syringe used for douching the vagina, especially as a contraceptive measure". It does state that it can also, as a North American slang term, denote a loathsome or contemptible person. If this applies to people from New Jersey, then so be it. I can't say as I have never been to the Garden State. However, I can safely state that I do not now nor will I ever feel like a female contraceptive product when I speak Chinese, furthermore, if anyone actually does feel like such an object when attempting to communicate in a foreign language, I strongly suggest that they should consult a mental health specialist. By the by, a "douche" is also a shower-like object used for cleaning the body for medicinal purposes, especially female contraception. So it can be reasonably stated that both the terms "douche" and "douche bag" have been erroneously applied in this thread.

 agagagagag agagagagag agagagagag agagagagag agagagagag agagagagag
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: gonzo on May 10, 2012, 09:36:10 PM
You are right gonzo.

Douche should be saved for only those people that publish the full name and the address of people they don't like on a public forum.
Now Larry Orenstein was a douche! Actually, that's his screen handle. Real name: Mr Kalquski. Location: A rat's nest near you.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Escaped Lunatic on May 11, 2012, 02:48:28 AM
I've always found squirrels who pontificate against proper American slang to be a bit on the douche side of the force. ahahahahah
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: cruisemonkey on May 11, 2012, 03:44:52 AM
I never speak Chinese in class (people really do that?) and students assume I can neither speak nor understand, so they speak to each other in front of me about anything. You can learn a lot this way.

Q: Who's the best spy in the world?
A: No one knows.

 ababababab
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: psd4fan on May 12, 2012, 07:26:08 AM
laowais whose Chinese name contains dragon...

Big Dragon

Small Dragon

White Dragon

etc...
I hate that too.  llllllllll bibibibibi
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Clos on May 12, 2012, 09:19:13 AM
laowais whose Chinese name contains dragon...

Big Dragon

Small Dragon

White Dragon

etc...
I hate that too.  llllllllll bibibibibi

 ahahahahah

My first night in China, I turned on CCTV and watched ping pong.  The next day, I registered at the PSB and they requested a Chinese name.  I only knew four names, aside from the westernized-Chinese names I've heard before.

Ma Long
Yao Ming
Chairman Mao
President Jintao

Guess which one I chose?
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: kevcom1 on May 20, 2012, 04:33:36 PM
I really hate the old creepy foreigners that are always on the search for young women and can only sem to talkabout it. Their purpose for living is to get the girls(which I really do not care about)and have to constantly talk about it. It seems sad that these creepy old menare trying to relive their youth.
I also hate young dumb foreigners who come here, spend a few weeks and know more than i do. iI spent an unwanted evening with one fellow that after 2 weks told me how to teach, how to speak chinese and how to navigate though life here. I am not trying to say my 8 years is anything extreme but come on.
Last one is the people that say lliving here for a continuos period of time doesnt mean anything.A guy who visits every few months for a while wastried telling me my not leaving meant nothing. i am sorry but staying here and dealing with the frustrations of life with no vacation from it has more impact than someone who often travels to their original country.
i also go crazy how I respond to fporeigners, I knowI should know better but i just cant help it at times.Some one once told me my expectations for otherswere too high and i told him his were too low.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: gonzo on May 21, 2012, 01:15:21 AM
I'd be interested to hear kevcom's definitions of "old" bgbgbgbgbg and "young" :banana:.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Escaped Lunatic on May 21, 2012, 02:43:39 AM
Since Chinese tend to respect age more than the west, seeing a girl with a BF/husband significantly older than her can be a little more common than in some countries.  Of course, a May-September romance is one thing.  February-December does get more than a little creepy.  A 70+ year old guy with a girl on his arm who may or may not be out of high school -  aaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaa
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: George on May 21, 2012, 03:04:40 AM
Quote
A 70+ year old guy with a girl on his arm who may or may not be out of high school
bibibibibi So that's where I went wrong!
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: latefordinner on May 21, 2012, 05:40:35 AM
I don't talk about it that much, do I?
<Have to ask the wife>
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: kevcom1 on May 21, 2012, 09:57:10 PM
Ireally do not care if a guy is with a girl at any age. what i find creepy are the guys that can only seem to talk about finding women, everywhere they go or anything they do has to be about finding ladies.You ask if they want to go to dinner,they ask are there gonna be girls? ask if they wanna fo to a bar they ask about the girls? Tea, Girls? Bowling. girls? Walk down the street, girls?
It is like seeing a young man trapped instide a squidy old body and makes me wonder how much they missed out on in their previous lives back in their original country.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: gonzo on May 22, 2012, 02:04:27 AM
It is like seeing a young man trapped instide a squidy old body and makes me wonder how much they missed out on in their previous lives back in their original country.
You poor person! In my 5 Chinese years at two universities, one in China's largest city, I didn't meet any of these. It was your loose use of "old" and "young" that I wanted to find out more about. Does this mean older and younger than you?
"Wanna"??? Its shortened my life trying to coach this crap use of English out of EFL and ESL students, but I now see the chips are stacked against me.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: BrandeX on May 22, 2012, 02:26:58 AM
The Internet warmly welcomes you.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_is_there_such_bad_spelling_and_grammar_on_the_Internet
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Escaped Lunatic on May 22, 2012, 02:53:19 AM
what i find creepy are the guys that can only seem to talk about finding women, everywhere they go or anything they do has to be about finding ladies.You ask if they want to go to dinner,they ask are there gonna be girls? ask if they wanna fo to a bar they ask about the girls? Tea, Girls? Bowling. girls? Walk down the street, girls?

Tell these idiots to open their eyes.  China has more girls than any other country. ahahahahah

Think I'll step out on my balcony and see how many girls I can see. afafafafaf
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: zero on May 22, 2012, 02:57:59 AM
Just remember to keep your bathrobe closed this time while you're on that balcony, EL.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: kevcom1 on May 22, 2012, 03:12:55 AM
cause i am assuming that i am talikig to other native english speakers and not ESL students I'm not gonna change my way of speaking, sorry bro. I wanna feel comfortable here and if i knew someone was gonna censor my use of words I would be posting over on ESL cafe where fellas like turnoi will yap away about it.
As tp clearly define age i am referrig to the older men that if they were in America would not be visiting a niteclub surrounded by people 20 to 30 years their junior. just imagine a dude that doesnt fit in with the majority and thats probably whom I am talking about. But thats just what bothers me, not that they are old but that they think they can come here and behave like someone much less their age.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: gonzo on May 22, 2012, 03:37:50 AM
But thats just what bothers me, not that they are old but that they think they can come here and behave like someone much less their age.
But they can, and they do! As they irritate you so much don't spend time with them. Don't frequent dives where young women who don't find older men disgusting gather.......to find older men. Join Hillside Church and disapprove of others having fun, especially when you're obviously missing out..
Yo bro, wanna gonna........and for those English speakers amongst us? You might speak like that, but in writing its called extremely informal, bordering on semi-literate. Dude.
Unless you're African-American, grow up.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: kitano on May 22, 2012, 04:16:54 AM
You see that at home as well, i don't know it's specific to China at all. Lots of men in their 40s or 50s will have a mid life crisis and start chasing young girls. Some young girls are attracted to older men and older men are attracted to young women....

I was actually surprised by China how little you see the stereotype of old men with beauties on their arms. I mean, there are those bars where old men go to get drunk and pay for other stuff with young girls, but that isn't a foreigner thing
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Raoul F. Duke on May 22, 2012, 05:06:46 AM
I think everyone in this thread should maybe take a deep breath and calm down?

Quote
Unless you're African-American, grow up.

I object to this. The way many of us talk has nothing to do with race. I'm from the southern USA, y'all, and I'm shonuff gonna talk in a way I feel comfortable.

Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: KeyserSoze on May 22, 2012, 06:05:46 AM
So anyway - what do you call it when he's 50 and she's 25? Is it an April-October romance? A friend of mine is curious.

There are of course older men here who talk about finding gals 24/7 but there's many young men who do the same thing. I want to drown them all but I think that's illegal.

 ababababab
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: gonzo on May 22, 2012, 07:00:45 AM
I think everyone in this thread should maybe take a deep breath and calm down?

Quote
Unless you're African-American, grow up.

I object to this. The way many of us talk has nothing to do with race. I'm from the southern USA, y'all, and I'm shonuff gonna talk in a way I feel comfortable.


Talk? No problem! Gonna, wanna, man, dude are spoken variants. When we write like this [and you never do Raoul, in fact I never heard you talk like this] we have a wider audience.  That's my point. Semi-literate people do write the way they talk, be it from Far North Queensland or Deepest Six Toe County, regrettably. However, this is a forum where educated people post [no, not "hang out", or even "chill"], so I'd prefer English to Gibberish.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Pashley on May 22, 2012, 07:07:53 AM
Is there any hope of getting this thread back on its original topic?

If you want to criticise someone's writing style, either send him or her a personal message or start a new thread for that discussion.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Fozzwaldus on May 22, 2012, 07:15:48 AM
I think everyone in this thread should maybe take a deep breath and calm down?

Quote
Unless you're African-American, grow up.

I object to this. The way many of us talk has nothing to do with race. I'm from the southern USA, y'all, and I'm shonuff gonna talk in a way I feel comfortable.


Talk? No problem! Gonna, wanna, man, dude are spoken variants. When we write like this [and you never do Raoul, in fact I never heard you talk like this] we have a wider audience.  That's my point. Semi-literate people do write the way they talk, be it from Far North Queensland or Deepest Six Toe County, regrettably. However, this is a forum where educated people post [no, not "hang out", or even "chill"], so I'd prefer English to Gibberish.

The name of this forum is Raoul's China Saloon, which should be an indication of the levels of formality required to post here. To call people semi-literate for posting in a colloquial way is a little over the top.

 
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Fozzwaldus on May 22, 2012, 07:18:14 AM
I think everyone in this thread should maybe take a deep breath and calm down?

I think that it's actually the crack about old guys and young girls that heated this convo up, so maybe back off that one for a while, eh guys?

And rightly so too, to each their own and who the hell is anybody else to object where another person finds their happiness/shits 'n giggles.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: gonzo on May 22, 2012, 07:58:05 AM
The name of this forum is Raoul's China Saloon, which should be an indication of the levels of formality required to post here. To call people semi-literate for posting in a colloquial way is a little over the top.

And, interestingly , Fozzwaldus posts in clear English. No wanna gonna dude, just clear, correct language. Its not that difficult. As for colloquial, that is saved for people you know who speak the same variant as you. This is a broadly based forum, including ESL speakers.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Stil on May 22, 2012, 08:39:17 AM
I don't think kevcom1 complained about older guys and young girls so much as the bragging about it. I am an oldish guy dating young girls and I agree with him. I get annoyed when the young guys brag about their conquests too. It's disrespectful to women most of the time and just generally comes across as rude and insecure.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Fozzwaldus on May 22, 2012, 09:43:27 AM
@Stil - yeah, fair enough.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: kitano on May 22, 2012, 10:04:42 AM
It's weird how people brag more about going to prostitutes than meeting lovely girls and having a great day at the park etc
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: NATO on May 22, 2012, 10:35:33 AM
I always see forums and whatnot as basically a cheap replacement for sitting somewhere and having a chat with people. As such I find it perfeckly natural that people should type to represent the way they speak, if they wanna.

Also the idea that in my downtime and day-to-day life I should be a bastion and beacon of all that is correct and proppa in the English language just in case an ESL learner get's the wrong idea, is frankly scary. I think it's best to provide students with the tools to judge when it's appropriate to use different forms of language, it's certainly easier than trying to stop people using them anyway.

I agree with stil as well, conducting yourself with respect towards other people is ultimately the key. I think there's a bigger problem here that's got nothing to do with "old" or "young" and more to do with "home" and "away". I mean those people that come here and for some reason act in a blatantly disrespectful way to the people and culture here, in a way that they probably wouldn't back home. Maybe when you're faced with a language you can't speak and a culture you can't (or in some cases, don't even want to try to) understand, then it's easy to dehumanise people and begin to act inappropriately. Whatever the reason, it's still inexcusable.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Paul on May 22, 2012, 11:01:47 AM
I'm not easily annoyed about anything.  But one thing I find tedious, verging on bloody annoying is expats who can't stop whining about just about everything that happens in China, and how it doesn't happen in Canada/America/Holland or wherever.

Live and let live!

Mind your own business!

Don't try to impose your value system!

Enjoy the baijiu!

Chill!

Have fun!
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Escaped Lunatic on May 22, 2012, 11:49:20 AM
Just remember to keep your bathrobe closed this time while you're on that balcony, EL.

It's far to hot in DG to be wearing a bathrobe today. afafafafaf

It's weird how people brag more about going to prostitutes than meeting lovely girls and having a great day at the park etc

Yeah, and how come no one ever brags about taking a lovely prostitute girl who generously rents her affection at very reasonable rates to the park and having a great day with her? mmmmmmmmmm
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: kevcom1 on May 22, 2012, 02:05:07 PM

Quote
But they can, and they do! As they irritate you so much don't spend time with them. Don't frequent dives where young women who don't find older men disgusting gather.......to find older men. Join Hillside Church and disapprove of others having fun, especially when you're obviously missing out..



Read the headline DUDE, Things other expats do that drive you insane. It isnot how to avoid it or what to do to when you run into this situation so you telling me to not to spend time with them is pointless. I do not spend time with them because they drive me insane hence me posting on this specific thread. I do not believe I suggested people having fun is a bad thing DUDE, but possible you saw old, got offended and stopped paying attention. I would assume that older men have gained enough maturity that they do not have to walk around talking about women throughout the entire conversation and when I say old I mean anyone old enough to know better. I imagine you will not pay attention to any of this as the word "old" has caught your attention. I also imagine others know exactly what i am talking about, so to continue would be pointless. llllllllll
Quote
Yo bro, wanna gonna........and for those English speakers amongst us? You might speak like that, but in writing its called extremely informal, bordering on semi-literate. Dude.

I was at another site where a few douchebags led by the likes of turnoi would constantly belittle anyone who did not live up to their strict code of communication and use of English. i left because i grew tired of these high and mighty English storm troopers telling me how to speak. where in the rules are we told that informal speech is not allowed here BUDDY?Maybe it is best if you try to bully your students and leave those that wont be intimidated by you alone. bfbfbfbfbf

Quote
Unless you're African-American, grow up.
Am I the only one to question why this was added? what were you thinking? What does my race have anything to do with this? it just seems extremely silly.
I guess though you are the type of expat that would drive me insane(again look at the thread topic) Here I was thinking douchebags only lived in the other ESL crap sites, guess not. ananananan
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Stil on May 22, 2012, 02:43:27 PM
Hahaha, I'm starting to really enjoy this thread.

Who would of thought a thread dedicated to complaining about each other would piss anyone off?
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: gonzo on May 22, 2012, 09:35:10 PM
kevcom1, if you believe that speak and write are interchangeable, go ahead. That they are totally different forms of production should be obvious, and if you are a teacher I hope you put it into practice. If your definition of old is....old enough to know better, then you are confused. If you think this forum is for adolescents who never grew up, and who post like the script of American Pie 3, or one of those mindless pieces of pap, then you are a sad case, and perhaps facebook is more suited to you [and yes, you can get it in China]. As for calling me a douchebag, I'm really not sure of the similarities, except its a word I generally hear used by misogynists from north of Mexico. And no, I'm not an expat. these days. You'll see one in the mirror.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Raoul F. Duke on May 22, 2012, 10:00:19 PM
Who would have thought a thread dedicated to complaining about each other would piss anyone off?

Who, indeed.
This is getting too personal and I'm locking it up... bibibibibi
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Raoul F. Duke on May 23, 2012, 12:26:33 AM
OK, the boil lanced and the shit removed, let's try re-opening this...
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: kitano on May 23, 2012, 12:49:57 AM
It's weird how people brag more about going to prostitutes than meeting lovely girls and having a great day at the park etc

Yeah, and how come no one ever brags about taking a lovely prostitute girl who generously rents her affection at very reasonable rates to the park and having a great day with her? mmmmmmmmmm


When I first came to China I had some very teenagey sweet and lovely dates with a bargirl going to the park and kissing under bridges and so on. I couldn't brag about it around town because she was also dating an Indian guy and a Welsh guy who were both twice my age :D
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: kitano on May 23, 2012, 12:54:26 AM
I've noticed a couple of the new posters on here being less civilised that I expected from this forum. I was much more uncivilised when I joined and a couple of senior members in a very civilised way explained to me that this is a civilised forum.
I guess it's how civilisation works.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: jpd01 on May 23, 2012, 01:32:57 AM
Farnkly I'm getting the feeling when I read the forum these days that the older members are being quite aggressive and condescending towards new members.
And yes I can be a bit snarky at times as well, but I've had this feeling lately reading the forums that we are not being so welcoming towards people. 
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: NATO on May 23, 2012, 04:50:41 AM
Damnit, I missed all the drama  pppppppppp
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Raoul F. Duke on May 23, 2012, 05:30:58 AM
Damnit, I missed all the drama  pppppppppp

Lucky you.
We need both groups- old and new members. I for one believe that most people can be corrected gently and turned into great members instead of chasing them away...but all I can do is encourage. And hope.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Stil on May 23, 2012, 05:53:16 AM
哈哈哈. this is great!

Let me join.

How you speak and write is going to effect how others think of you. As a forum dominated by English teachers, p̶o̶o̶r̶ unusual English will grate people the wrong way, just as in real life. In real life, we would usually adjust out language to the group we are talking to. So how you talk to your university mates might be quite different to how speak to your grandmother's friends.

On a forum, you are talking to all those people at the same time. Generally it's more polite to be more standard in your style of address but it should still be up to you. We have posters with a certain flamboyant style of writing such as Calach and DaDan, and the forum is better for it. (Where the hell is DaDan?)

New members to a forum should show a little respect to the older members. I've been a forum member here since 2003 and have made many mistakes, have been in many a snit and have been taken aside by Raoul and other monitors at times to straighten me out. I have been t̶h̶r̶e̶a̶t̶e̶n̶e̶d̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶d̶e̶c̶a̶p̶i̶t̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ gently warned several times. I've paid my dues.

Older members have no excuse, including me. We should know better than to jump on a newbie's remarks. Why should they listen to us? If we have complaints, make them to a moderator privately and let them do their thing. A newbie will/should listen to them. It's hard to come to new place and understand the local culture and how to get along with the locals. It takes time, and mistakes will happen. It helps tremendously if the locals are patient. It's easy for the newbie to become defensive if the locals are condescending and unwelcoming.

This thread is about what other foreigners due that piss you off.

Most of us are going to see something we do mentioned here. It's ok. If we all met in a room, it would probably be more Battle Royale than Kumbaya. A little bickering is natural and fun even but there's no need to attack each other. We are all strangers in a strange land.

Back on topic

The foreigners that annoy me the most are those idiots that think that just because they've been here for a while, they know everything and then they try to impart their unwanted, so-called wisdom on to the rest of us.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Raoul F. Duke on May 23, 2012, 06:06:50 AM
I understand, Stil.
And one thing you hit on the nosey: If people would simply bring their complaints to a moderator or administrator, as we've been trying for years to encourage them to do, instead of jumping into the fray themselves, we'd have a lot fewer conflicts. Issues brought to our attention DO get dealt with.

I think part of the problem may be paranoia brought on by history. We've had more than our share of assholes who have joined us to deliberately stir up trouble, not to mention more than a few just plain old genuinely unpleasant idiots. In such cases we DO need to stand up and fend them off. But sometimes I think people's desire to defend the Saloon, admirable though that is, makes our triggers a bit too sensitive...and that's what we've got to try and avoid.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: George on May 23, 2012, 07:45:28 PM
Quote
other foreigners due that piss you off.
People who write with wanky accents piss me orf! agagagagag agagagagag
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Raoul F. Duke on May 23, 2012, 10:09:05 PM
Yeah, well, I've heard you talk. uuuuuuuuuu ahahahahah pppppppppp

Annoyed, I can see. Pissed off, no. We all have different personalities and personas. Tolerance is a good thing.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Escaped Lunatic on May 24, 2012, 02:21:02 AM
Tolerance is a good thing.

All those tolerant expats really piss me off.  asasasasas asasasasas asasasasas
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Fozzwaldus on May 24, 2012, 04:29:56 AM
We have posters with a certain flamboyant style of writing such as Calach and DaDan, and the forum is better for it. (Where the hell is DaDan?)

yeah, where IS Dadan?

also, Calach, Stil's calling you flamboyant 'ooOOooh *raises imaginary handbag*'

fight! fight! fight! fight!
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Raoul F. Duke on May 24, 2012, 06:17:02 AM
Yeppers, as he would say, Da Dan is much missed. Sadly, he seems to have dropped totally off the radar- as in suddenly disappeared- and no one knows where or why. He does not respond to e-mail... ananananan
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Stil on May 24, 2012, 07:49:21 AM

also, Calach, Stil's calling you flamboyant 'ooOOooh *raises imaginary handbag*'

fight! fight! fight! fight!

When I said flamboyant, I was thinking  Scarface. I wonder why your mind went to Liberacie.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Fozzwaldus on May 24, 2012, 07:52:22 AM
scarface is flamboyant??

Calach writes like Scarface??  mmmmmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmm
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: NATO on May 24, 2012, 08:52:38 AM
Flamboyant for life.

(http://images.hhv.de/catalog/old_detail/00082/82488.jpg)
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Calach Pfeffer on May 24, 2012, 09:28:32 AM
Say hello to my little friend

(http://cdn.trendhunterstatic.com/thumbs/flamboyant-fashion-miami-men.jpeg)
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Granny Mae on May 24, 2012, 08:43:34 PM
Wow! Calach, your friend is very brave wearing those sox in public. ahahahahah
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Escaped Lunatic on May 25, 2012, 03:53:33 AM
I think I liked this thread better when people were flaming each other instead of getting into a contest to see who is most flamingly flamboyant. kkkkkkkkkk

Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: NATO on May 25, 2012, 08:59:15 AM
I'm not competing btw, just thought of Big L when I saw the word "flamboyant".
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: zero on May 25, 2012, 07:00:09 PM
I liked the thread before Calach started posting pics of himself.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Stil on May 25, 2012, 11:09:05 PM

I liked the thread before Calach started posting pics of himself.


You'd still do him though eh zero?
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Calach Pfeffer on May 26, 2012, 06:03:56 AM
Hey man, this isn't Beijing!
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: mustachioed-ken on July 22, 2012, 09:51:16 AM
Only gonna date western women in China. Hah. That'll show you labelists. Never expect what I'll do!
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Escaped Lunatic on July 23, 2012, 04:07:15 PM
Only gonna date western women in China. Hah. That'll show you labelists. Never expect what I'll do!

Then someone will label you as having white fever and/or as being racist. ahahahahah
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: gonzo on July 25, 2012, 06:48:56 AM
And when I tour the Guiness plant in Dublin, I'll be having flat lemonade. Don't profile me!!
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Escaped Lunatic on July 26, 2012, 02:04:12 PM
And when I tour the Guiness plant in Dublin, I'll be having flat lemonade. Don't profile me!!

Damned flat lemonade drinkers! asasasasas  They should all be put up against the wall. bababababa
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: CaseyOrourke on August 17, 2012, 03:26:45 AM
I don't have much of a problem with expats here in China.  I've noticed that most just want to be left alone.  I figure if you're sitting in Starbucks drinking coffee and working on your laptop, you don't want to be bothered with conversation.  If I'm approached and waved at, I'll wave back (was wearing my Texas hat one time and a guy gave me the longhorn sign). If they want to talk, I'm happy to reciprocate.

What bugs me is somebody who thinks (and says) my wife is a trophy or sex toy.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Escaped Lunatic on August 17, 2012, 03:57:51 AM
What bugs me is somebody who thinks (and says) my wife is a trophy or sex toy.

Tell them that your wife is not a sex toy.  For sex toys, you have 10 girlfriends. ahahahahah
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Fozzwaldus on August 21, 2012, 09:45:30 AM
yuk.

Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: babala on August 21, 2012, 10:09:25 AM
EM, it's not just Asian women they have a problem relating to  kkkkkkkkkk

I hate the guys who say things to us women that they would never say back home. This jerk walked up to my friend the other day in the pub. She was wearing a dress and he asked her why she was dressed that way (I guess implying the dress was sexy). Meanwhile almost all the Chinese girls were dressed pretty much the same and he said nothing to them asasasasas
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: ericthered on August 21, 2012, 12:38:22 PM
Uhmm...I don't mean to rain on the parade but men being douchenozzles towards women...well...urrr...I do believe you can find those anywhere, without looking hard or anything, whether they are es-pats or not...It does not mean they are not idiots, just saying that malechauvinist pricks are pretty common in all cultures and ocuntries...


Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: babala on August 22, 2012, 01:17:50 AM
Completely true Eric. I guess what I notice is that they have a confidence here that they don't have back home to say it. Chinese women often will not tell off a man for saying something inappropriate. Other men while thinking the guy is a douche will also often keep silent so these guys think they can get away with saying anything to anybody.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: mlaeux on August 22, 2012, 02:00:06 AM
Quote
Completely true Eric. I guess what I notice is that they have a confidence here that they don't have back home to say it. Chinese women often will not tell off a man for saying something inappropriate. Other men while thinking the guy is a douche will also often keep silent so these guys think they can get away with saying anything to anybody.

I guess it all boils down to how you were raised.
If you were raised to treat women with respect and kindness as child, then it will carry over into adulthood.
So, yeah these men are douche bags, but either they weren't raised right or they have some sort of moral deficiency that prevents them from differentiating between right and wrong. It shouldn't matter what country you reside in. Good manners are good manners.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Chief on September 24, 2012, 07:23:11 AM
Met an expat the other night who drove me insane because he was insane.
Within 1 minute of conversation his main point of argument was that I was young.

I didn't know anything because I wasn't in world war 2 (He wasn't but his grandad was so he kept telling me).

Im too young to know anything.

I hadn't been in the city long enough to know anything.

Admitedly I am young and have not been in the city for long, however I did not claim to know anything.

I think he was just letting off some steam, perhaps because he was angry at his own life, or trying to stamp his authority over the new guy.

This guy was literally hammering on for a good hour and I was not overly keen on upsetting him as he was quite established in the expat community.

I feel that there is a lack of pride/job prestige with some of the older esl teachers, which leads to them having to remind themselves of their own self importance in other ways.

I guess that there are many in China who come here because of a lack of success in many different aspects of their life, and see esl teaching as an easy option without a real desire for the job.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: bobrage on September 24, 2012, 07:35:17 AM
I feel that there is a lack of pride/job prestige with some of the older esl teachers, which leads to them having to remind themselves of their own self importance in other ways.

Ever wonder why any salary related discussion over at the other place enters a death spiral after half a page?  People who aren't really interested in teaching often struggle to find other ways to measure themselves and end up making wild claims about the size of their paycheck.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Stil on September 24, 2012, 03:24:47 PM

I feel that there is a lack of pride/job prestige with some of the older esl teachers, which leads to them having to remind themselves of their own self importance in other ways.


Na, you're just too young and don't know anything.  uuuuuuuuuu
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: MK on September 25, 2012, 12:13:11 AM
A foreigner picked a fight with my equally foreign friend when we were visiting a third tier city once, because he was 'from Shanghai'.  Some Laowai get crazy protective of 'their patch'.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Chief on September 25, 2012, 12:39:20 PM

I feel that there is a lack of pride/job prestige with some of the older esl teachers, which leads to them having to remind themselves of their own self importance in other ways.


Na, you're just too young and don't know anything.  uuuuuuuuuu



 ahahahahah
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: cruisemonkey on September 26, 2012, 09:36:28 PM
It drives me insane when another expat (co-worker) shows up at the bar with students 'in tow'... then proceeds to play with his cell phone the entire time - leaving me to 'converse' with the students. This is exacerbated by the fact it's his 'turn to buy' and he announces he and I will split the bill for everyone.

I don't drink/socialise with my co-workers anymore.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Escaped Lunatic on September 27, 2012, 03:26:12 AM
Isn't the whole point of eating/drinking with students that it's the easiest way to get your tab covered? uuuuuuuuuu
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Some guy on September 27, 2012, 12:00:22 PM
It drives me insane when another expat (co-worker) shows up at the bar with students 'in tow'... then proceeds to play with his cell phone the entire time - leaving me to 'converse' with the students. This is exacerbated by the fact it's his 'turn to buy' and he announces he and I will split the bill for everyone.

I don't drink/socialise with my co-workers anymore.

Yeah that would have me fuming, especially being lumbered with half of the bill !  asasasasas
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Stil on September 27, 2012, 12:06:34 PM
Why pay it?
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: ericthered on September 28, 2012, 09:52:10 AM
Rather, why on earth spend your spare time with students? I see enough of them in the classroom...
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Stil on September 28, 2012, 11:17:13 AM

Rather, why on earth spend your spare time with students? I see enough of them in the classroom...


I agree with this too. However, my understanding is that Fozzy was already at the bar half-in-the-bag on his own when another foreigner came in with a few students. Fozzy wanted to leave, but due to a slight miscalculation of the ratio between beers drank and bathroom trips necessary, he had to wait for his trousers to dry before getting up in front of the students.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: bobrage on September 28, 2012, 11:47:15 AM
Rather, why on earth spend your spare time with students? I see enough of them in the classroom...

Can I echo this sentiment.

On topic: I hate expats who talk about "Chinese girls" and make comments about their sex lives and/or how attractive their students are.  Creepy.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: ericthered on September 28, 2012, 01:06:22 PM
Students are not attractive...well, if one has an inner Humbert Humbert I guess they might be...I personally just see the Hello Kitty shirts and wonder how anyone of mature age can be attracted to memebers of a group who, when asked, will reply that they equate happiness with eating and sleeping, interspersed with QQ'ing...

I do wish that I could write something about other expats annoying me but, as I don't go to bars, I usually meet rather nice, friendly and sober expats.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: George on September 28, 2012, 07:47:30 PM
Quote
Students are not attractive.
  bibibibibi
Generalization annoys me!
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: ericthered on September 28, 2012, 10:29:44 PM
Quote
Students are not attractive.
  bibibibibi
Generalization annoys me!

This entire thread is about generalization. Besides, I never said student could not be equipped with the physical characteristics that would make him/her pretty/handsome. But there is a difference between finding something or someone pretty and being attracted to them.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: gonzo on September 29, 2012, 01:45:40 AM
Give themselves Chinese-ey screen names on forums. When I addressed a character "over there" as "stinky tofu" [he's named himself Choudoufu"], and enquired whether his students or a bargirl had named him, he got really shirty. Know what thee are naming thyself!!

Persist in breaking pinyin, such as "Shanghai" into its Hanzi components, such as "Shang Hai". What pretentious wankers.

Those who dis Australians, particularly Canuck two-heads! Yes Stil, you!!
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Stil on September 29, 2012, 01:51:28 AM
Could someone please translate the last post for me?

Shirty?

Canuck Two-heads?
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: The Local Dialect on September 29, 2012, 02:45:49 AM
Persist in breaking pinyin, such as "Shanghai" into its Hanzi components, such as "Shang Hai". What pretentious wankers.

This is one of my major pet peeves. It doesn't bother me so much with regular words, but with place names? Fuck off.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: gonzo on September 29, 2012, 03:01:06 AM
Could someone please translate the last post for me?

Shirty?

Canuck Two-heads?

Use context, man, the English teacher's best friend.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: latefordinner on September 29, 2012, 03:39:10 AM
Are you two married? Can't you get a room?
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Fozzwaldus on September 29, 2012, 06:11:26 AM

Rather, why on earth spend your spare time with students? I see enough of them in the classroom...


I agree with this too. However, my understanding is that Fozzy was already at the bar half-in-the-bag on his own when another foreigner came in with a few students. Fozzy wanted to leave, but due to a slight miscalculation of the ratio between beers drank and bathroom trips necessary, he had to wait for his trousers to dry before getting up in front of the students.

Fozzy? have you got the wrong insane expat here?  mmmmmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmm
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: piglet on September 29, 2012, 06:18:00 AM
Yeah creepy middle aged guys who CONSTANTLY talk about sexy Chinese girls. .. why are there so many of those douchebags around? I just want to avoid them.They are gross.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Escaped Lunatic on September 29, 2012, 07:31:23 AM
Is there something wrong with noticing how sexy so many of the Celestial Daughters are? akakakakak
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: bobrage on September 29, 2012, 11:42:38 AM
Is there something wrong with noticing how sexy so many of the Celestial Daughters are? akakakakak

There's nothing wrong with finding a woman sexy, or a man sexy.  However, most Chinese university students are not men or women and, on top of that, there is a distinct professional boundary which should be observed regardless of age or interest.  I am not suggesting that physical attractiveness isn't sometimes noticed, but it shouldn't be talked about between teachers - it should never be considered socially acceptable to say something like: "...oh that class, there's a really hot girl in that group."

Don't worry, I know you are joking. bjbjbjbjbj

Also, am I the only one who finds the "collections" of photographs on eChinacities to be misogynistic and creepy?  


Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: kitano on September 30, 2012, 12:16:41 AM
I don't know, university students are adults and some of them are hot...

I also sometimes feel uncomfortable when teachers start being creepy about students, but that's because it's just general sleaziness towards women and also I think it's really inappropriate to have that kind of relationship with a student in a situation like university which has a hierachy with you above them

If there is something wrong with thinking that a lot of 21 year old girls are sexy then the world is in big trouble. Some of them still look young, but some of them are hot young women in tiny shorts...
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Escaped Lunatic on September 30, 2012, 02:19:56 AM
"Professional boundaries" can be based on age and on relative power over students (via the ability to hand out grades in many cases).

Happily for me, back when I taught, a lot of my classes were adult education.  Those didn't get grades, contained no kiddies (ages from low twenties to late 30's), and the vast bulk of the female students ranged from hot to smokin' hot! ajajajajaj

Flash forward a little over 5 years - I'm still good friends with a number of my former students (met my wife via one of them).  Another thing I love about Celestial Daughters - they just keep getting hotter and hotter as the years go by. ajajajajaj
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Borkya on September 30, 2012, 05:31:34 AM
This is actually the first year in which I've noticed some of my non-major students are total hotties. It is also the fist year in which I'm single. Coincidence?

And for the record, I would never ever touch a student. In fact, I think there is something in my brain that makes my major students unattractive to me. Like, how a mom isnt sexually attracted to their kids. In fact, I find chinese guys who speak engish a big turn-off and I have yet to date an english speaker.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: opiate on September 30, 2012, 12:27:49 PM
I always told myself I would never date or have sex with a student. Sometimes, I lie to myself it seems. Consenting adults are just that so I feel no ethical concerns whatsoever.

Let's be honest, We are not really above the students in most schools when it comes to power, especially private gigs. If our grades mattered maybe it would be different but I have yet to be offered a blowjob for a better grade. Instead, the owner gets them for lower tuition....no idea if that is actually true where I work though. If you are going to suck a dick in hopes of getting something in return...most girls are smart enough to actually make it an important dick. Just saying.

Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: babala on October 01, 2012, 12:15:05 PM
I think it's okay to date a former student after they or you has left the university/college. Even if you don't have grade power over them or even have them in your class it's just not cool to date a student in the school where you work.

I just went on a date with a former student. I teach at companies but even so I waited until the contract with them finished before we went out.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: latefordinner on October 01, 2012, 03:49:19 PM
I think you're wise, Babs, to wait until the contract has finished. Aside from the obvious ethical issue, there is also the matter of giving the friendship time to develop before you form a romantic relationship.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: gonzo on October 02, 2012, 03:42:37 AM
This is a nonsensical tendril. People have been speculating about each other sexually since research began. [Morebonk, 1978]. Comments on gender [e.g. "guys", "chicks"], ethnicity [Westerners, Chinese], age [e.g. middle aged, young ] and general subjectivity [creepy] say more about the prejudices of the poster than anything else.
If they act outside the law they face the consequences, but a bunch of non-approving self-appointed moral champions on the case.....sheesh!!
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: bobrage on October 02, 2012, 09:17:24 AM
If they act outside the law they face the consequences, but a bunch of non-approving self-appointed moral champions on the case.....sheesh!!

So you would approve of a 50 year old Western guy dating his 18 year old Chinese college student?  What about the the age of consent in China, do you agree with that?

I had the good sense to qualify my opinion, you should too.

There are alot of creepy white guys in Asia and the things "those expats do" does drive me insane.  Where you draw the line is subject to consideration, but don't expect me to respect anyone who abuses an asymmetrical relationship with a naive student.

[edit]

As for this being a "nonsensical tendril": the prejudice attached to white guys in Asia is something which follows people around - to varying degrees and in varying places - so I would certainly argue that it is a relevant issue.  

I keep my notarised criminal record checks up to date inside China (it is easier than you think), and I would advise others to do so too. Especially if you ever want to get a job teaching in Europe.

[edit edit]

I am sure that we can both agree that the creepy dudes who talk about Chinese women in exclusively sexual terms can fuck right off.  If you are a 23 year old Peace Corp kid who falls in love with a 22 years old Chinese senior then nobody is going to get excited: neither will anyone mind about an adult, professional woman (or man) getting involved with a teacher.  

This isn't a witch hunt.  I just want teachers in China to observe the same professional boundaries as those in the West.  Nothing wrong with that.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: ericthered on October 02, 2012, 01:50:07 PM
Well, it would seem there are two issues here. One, that older Western guys sexually objectify younger Chinese ladies and proceed to date/engage in casual sexual congress with aforementioned ladies. Two, that male teachers do the same with their much younger students. As for the former, meh...older men objectifying younger ladies and engaging in mutually consentual hanky-panky is not unusual, in any country. Both parties knows what they are doing. So I would, with regards to the former, say Gonzo is spot on.
As for the latter, I do believe teachers should be trawling other waters than their class-rooms. I mean, if I had a daughter who told me that she had been doing the beast with two backs with her college English teacher, who is 20 years her senior..well, I might have to have a baseball-bat related chat with him at some time. That male laowai always comment on how sexy the girls are and, at times, brag about their conquests is silly, not really annoying. Not to me anyway, then again, I lead a rather secluded existence and don't meet many male laowai and, even if I did, can't really say their Casanova-like braggadocio would gall me...I just would not want any daughter of mine in their class but as I have long since decided to remain childless, that is really not an issue.
What is the age of consent in China anyway? In Denmark it is 15.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: dragonsaver on October 02, 2012, 02:03:17 PM
@bobrage    I agree with you.
@ericthered  You posted as I was writing this. 

The problem with Chinese university students is that they are extremely naive. They have been mollycoddled all their lives, and have never had the opportunity to make decisions for themselves. For the most part, they act like junior high school students in the west.  They get 'crushes' on teachers, irrespective of the age of the teacher. The students will on occasion entice the teacher (I have seen it happen, and more than once!)  I think some of the students feel that being with a teacher increases their 'prestige' or 'status' somehow.  Also, some of the students (and other females) are looking for a way to escape China.

It is sometimes difficult for a western teacher to ignore this attention, but they must. It is just the students are so in-their-face that it is sometimes difficult to ignore.

There are many many young girls that have graduated or didn't go to university for the westerner to befriend and form a relationship with.  

I think any man that constantly brags about his conquests is an incompetent fool. 
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: gonzo on October 02, 2012, 09:31:29 PM
And another thing that really grinds my gears: Westerners who find themselves in classrooms suddenly thinking this makes them teachers. Back in their real world, that to which they must inevitably return one day, they'd need minimum 4 years of university education in the profession, observed practicums, police checks, training in areas such as first aid and mandatory notification, and then probably several years in casual positions, short contracts and part-time work before they could even give themselves that title, let alone master their craft.
But in entry level China, anything's possible.

Just a general bitch, but based on observations of more than a few incompetent fools with huge egos. Many more in fact than creepy middle aged guys as dealt with in the previous discussion. My own experience and observations saw married Chinese female teachers encouraging said creepy guys into a relationship, be it out of boredom, curiosity, an act of revenge against a straying husband, or perhaps even re-marriage and "escape" as a plan. I didn't witness any teacher/student relationships, though I did both experience [and reject] and witness girls putting it on a plate to male FTs. In Western societies we have specific legislation with very serious penalties in place, and even when age isn't an issue [e.g. university] there are strict codes of behaviour with instant dismissal as a penalty. In a country such as China, with "rule of law" a national obsession, one would expect the same to apply. This is surely a more effective deterrent than other Westerners tut-tutting.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: opiate on October 02, 2012, 11:57:27 PM
Look at the number of adjuncts working at universities in the US. They often do not need most of the requirements you listed above. Too lazy to track down sources but it's said that adjuncts outnumber professional teachers at the university level. This is not to say that all adjuncts do not possess the certifications and skills you mentioned but.....yeah.

I believe your glasses have a bit of a rosy tint to them....

Not attacking you personally here (since I do not know if it is applicable) but I despise the FT's who sit on a high horse because they believe anyone who has a lesser degree or who lacks certain teaching credentials is incompetent or undereducated. Frankly, I do not consider myself a 'real' teacher which is great since I do not consider where I work to be a 'real' school.

To another poster....I do not believe that many think that sleeping with a FT increases their prestige at all.....not even a little.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: gonzo on October 03, 2012, 01:57:29 AM
If they act outside the law they face the consequences, but a bunch of non-approving self-appointed moral champions on the case.....sheesh!!

So you would approve of a 50 year old Western guy dating his 18 year old Chinese college student?  What about the the age of consent in China, do you agree with that?

I'm not too sure this is what I suggested at all, but "dating" is a far too cute American term that other English speaking countries don't employ....because its too cute and too dumb.

Case in point. One of my graduates invited me to her 21st. birthday lunch at a restaurant. Turns out I was the only guest, she insisted on paying, and saw me to the subway with a farewell first and last kiss in front of a few hundred rubberneckers. Where would you put that on your sins continuum? For me, it was a "Goodbye Mr Chips" moment to remember. But for the Moral Right? Probably "dating" at the very least.


i'm always suspicious of the self-righteous and indignant. What's their real agenda?
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: gonzo on October 03, 2012, 02:23:41 AM
I believe your glasses have a bit of a rosy tint to them....

Not attacking you personally here (since I do not know if it is applicable) but I despise the FT's who sit on a high horse because they believe anyone who has a lesser degree or who lacks certain teaching credentials is incompetent or undereducated.  

I don't use glasses, and view this issue in possibly the same way as an MD does when iridologists, naturopaths, aromatherapists, bone crackers, snake oil salesmen, and others with "alternative therapy" training call themselves doctors. It devalues the ELT cause and misleads the clients. A real teacher has to work extra hard for professional respect in China because there are charlatans out there damaging the brand. And by" charlatan", I am not referring to well educated, well intentioned people doing a year or two in China. but to those who do more harm than good in - and out of -  the classroom. We are not helped by the generic Chinese word "laoshi" designated to anyone from department head to photocopy lady!!
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Escaped Lunatic on October 03, 2012, 02:42:07 AM
My two cents - USA colleges and universities have been known to use undergrads to teach labs and grad students to teach labs and even full courses.  Those teachers have ZERO formal education instruction under their belts.  Some utterly suck, but others do a fine job and qualify quite well as teachers in my book.  I've also seen properly licensed and experienced teachers, some at very high levels of certification, who should never have been allowed near any classroom.

Teaching is an art, not a science.  Some artists need to go to art school to become any good.  Others are already good and can be improved by education.  Others are good enough that they shouldn't be messed with.  Some people can be trained for decades and still aren't good artists.


I'd also like to say that I'm deeply and bitterly disappointed not to have been dragged away and aggressively molested by any Chinese teachers or students. ananananan ananananan ananananan

One time a VERY hot Chinese teacher at a middle school I was doing some classes at asked me to come to her apartment to "lie down."  I was completely taken off guard, so instead of saying "OH YES!", I said "WHAT?!?".  She replied, "Come to my apartment to lie down with me and my husband."  My reaction, "WHAT?!?!!?"  Then she said, "We always take a nap after lunch.  You can lie down on the bed in the guest room."


And, just to creep out those who are easily creeped out, the last time I checked, the legal age of consent here in the Big Silly is 14.

Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: ericthered on October 03, 2012, 04:03:34 AM
We seem to have drifted very far off topic...I do believe we have an entire thread on degrees and whether they matter or not. As for the term "real teacher"..err...I would say that is simply someone who enters a classrooms and exits secure in the knowledge that all his/her students are leaving the classroom in possession of either knowledge they did not have before or a slight improvement in previously acquired skills.

To get back on topic...errr...Ah yes, I get annoyed when other ex-pats do not agree with me that "Dracula" is a good book..and when they confuse Denmark with Holland...Whatever virtues and superiority Westerners lavish upon our educational systems, a basic knowledge of geography should not be one of them agagagagag agagagagag

Also, I do believe the snake-oil salesmen comparison is fallacious. Back in the old day, a quack mountebank with a good spiel could make a fair amount of money doing very little...educators in China can work their ass off and still not be rolling in the stuff...I wonder if there is a market for snake oil? And rose-tinted glasses? If the world looks better viewed through a rosy tint, would not most people be inclined to buy a pair? Would they work on children?
"Eat your broccoli, son".
"I hate broccoli. It looks like a plate of yuck!"
"Ah, then put on those new shiny glasses".
"Ooooh, now the broccoli looks much better".

Endless possibilities in rose-tinted glasses, methinks agagagagag agagagagag
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: gonzo on October 03, 2012, 05:22:36 AM
Erik Longshaft [as your name translates to in ancient Greenlandic], there is no off-topic on this thread; all is fair game. By definition, it is off topic. The sleazy old FT lusting after innocent girl thing has been done to death, yet gets a re-run, so I thought I'd throw in the "all unqualified teachers should be beheaded" line.
EL's rationalisation holds no water: because some truck drivers are unlicensed but competent, and some are licensed but incompetent, does that mean we don't need licences for truck drivers, especially given that the great licensed majority are competent? And how American universities choose to save money is their business, although the Chinese education system seems to have picked the idea up.

And EL, all I can suppose is that you were:
-living off campus
-had spectacular BO
-had a very scary partner
But you saved yourself some trouble. They can be persistent and competitive.
 
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: bobrage on October 03, 2012, 05:24:07 AM
I'm always suspicious of the self-righteous and indignant. What's their real agenda?

I, eh, I don't know what my secret agenda is.  What should it be?

Quote from: ericthered
...but I despise the FT's who sit on a high horse because they believe anyone who has a lesser degree or who lacks certain teaching credentials is incompetent or undereducated...

Quite.  Knowledge certainly counts (more in some jobs than others of course) but anyone who works hard and cares about their students' progress deserves a bit of respect.  Having said that:  

Quote from: gonzo
And another thing that really grinds my gears: Westerners who find themselves in classrooms suddenly thinking this makes them teachers.

I actually feel quite awkward about calling myself a teacher for exactly this reason.  I am working on a postgrad. degree at the moment though, and when I have got the first stage of that under my belt I will be more comfortable using the word.  But like I said above, I am not the sort who rates people on paper alone: a good day's work is what is needed.

There was a guy at one placed where I worked who put his job description on Linkedin as "Associate Professor" - we teased him about it and he changed it.  

Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: gonzo on October 03, 2012, 07:21:04 AM
I'm always suspicious of the self-righteous and indignant. What's their real agenda?

I, eh, I don't know what my secret agenda is.  What should it be?

If you agree that you belong to the Moral Right I can probably help.

But seriously, people doing on-going education and treating the ELT business as a career have my admiration. There are far easier ways of earning money: opening a recycling centre for one. So join the ELT crew Bobrage!
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Escaped Lunatic on October 04, 2012, 12:28:12 AM
Your rationalization won't float.  A trucking license is an absolute legal requirement in most countries.  Possession of one doesn't grant skills.  Driving is not really much of an innate artistic skill. Licenses for motor vehicles came into existence pretty quickly once those began to proliferate.

A teaching license isn't really a requirement to teach as an FT in China.  I did have a license to teach in Florida that was active when I was teaching in China.  Since I'm never going back to teach in the USA, I let it lapse last year.  I'll leave it to my students to debate whether adding 30 credit hours of education classes on top of my degrees and made any difference or not.

People have been teaching for thousands of years before the concept of getting a degree in teaching came into existence.  Would you disregard all the teachings of Confucius, Aristotle, Plato, Buddha, Jesus, and a few others, branding them as charlatans since they didn't ever get properly trained in a formal setting?
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: gonzo on October 04, 2012, 01:27:38 AM
 Would you disregard all the teachings of Confucius, Aristotle, Plato, Buddha, Jesus, and a few others, branding them as charlatans since they didn't ever get properly trained in a formal setting?

Certainly the last two, but let's not get onto religion. If Jesus was teaching Aramaic, what pedagogy would he employ? My argument is based around the belief that there is a mass of SLA research out there, and if we're teaching an additional language we should know about it. Understanding how and why people learn, and how best to help them reach their goals, does not come by divine inspiration. You need to study and work on it. However, I'm opening a separate thread on this in Teachers' Tips. See you there.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Escaped Lunatic on October 04, 2012, 08:55:11 AM
I think I may have one error in my analogy.  Being a teacher is less like being an artist than it is like being an actor.  Once again, some actors are naturals, some need various amounts of training, and some will never ever make it no matter how long they are trained.

Personally, I'm rather fond of the core message that both Jesus and Buddha had.  I think it can be summed up as something like "Quit being bastards to other people.  Sit back, take stock of the situation, and try to do something nice."  Agree with them or not, they both managed to acquire quite a following.  I'd say this shows that their teaching methods must not have been entirely unsuccessful despite of the lack of formal training and certification.

Naturally, to be an EFL teacher requires a firm grasp of the language.  On the other hand, I'd say anyone who can get an A in a reasonably rigorously taught set of English 1001 and 1002 classes at an English speaking university probably has at least some understanding of the subject at hand.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: gonzo on October 04, 2012, 09:01:11 AM


Personally, I'm rather fond of the core message that both Jesus and Buddha had.  I think it can be summed up as something like "Quit being bastards to other people.  Sit back, take stock of the situation, and try to do something nice." 

I've met many people over the years, and have current classmates who are of various or no faiths. Religion has nothing to do with being a decent human being.,
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: bobrage on October 04, 2012, 01:19:49 PM
I've met many people over the years, and have current classmates who are of various or no faiths. Religion has nothing to do with being a decent human being.

Explain this then smugboy!

(http://img1.imagehyper.com/t/0/14/14692/14692770-f39c1335.jpg) (http://serve.imagehyper.com/img.php?id=14692770&c=9aabaec6df730a871fdc49f9cd8f4561)
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: ericthered on October 04, 2012, 01:49:42 PM
Err...what?
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: bobrage on October 04, 2012, 01:56:39 PM
Err...what?

Exactly!
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: NATO on October 04, 2012, 03:48:49 PM
It tickled me, Bob.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Day Dreamer on March 02, 2013, 01:07:57 PM
Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane

People who register on a message board then stop posting great and wonderfully articulated articles
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Day Dreamer on March 02, 2013, 01:25:06 PM
It may have been stated previously, but after reading 7 pages, I skipped to the end. In no particular order:

Expats who crap on other (English) countries because they don't "talk English real good as themselves"

Expats who crap on other poorer countries. I would like to visit North Korea. I was asked why in the world would I ever want to go there. I told her if she needed to ask, then she will never understand. She doesn't speak to me any more (thank God)

Expats who crap on China just because their country is better. Its different here and its not for everybody

Expats who crap on other expats only as a show of domination yet have no knowledge or experience about anything. Again I was told how stupid I was for having a motorcycle for 2 years. "Oh, I'll never ride one, you should stop now!" If you don't want to then that's your business. I'm old enough to make my own mistakes

Expats who take themselves either too seriously (I'm the world's greatest ESL teacher.)

or

Expats who don't take themselves seriously enough (I'm the world's greatest teacher, all I need to do is show up because I'm a young, cute foreigner.)

Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: cruisemonkey on March 03, 2013, 03:45:33 AM
I don't know if these have been mentioned in the 14 pages (can't be arsed to read it all) but it drives me insane when other expats borrow my books and tools... and don't fuckin' return 'em.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: yli on March 04, 2013, 04:04:56 AM
There are many expats, especially European ones, that seem to value alcohol above all other activities, such as eating, drinking (water) and maintaining one's personal dignity and hygiene. I do not understand this mentality.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: gonzo on March 04, 2013, 04:35:43 AM
Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane

People who register on a message board then stop posting great and wonderfully articulated articles
People who sign up on forums such as this, then never post!
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: gonzo on March 04, 2013, 04:43:34 AM
There are many expats, especially European ones, that seem to value alcohol above all other activities, such as eating, drinking (water) and maintaining one's personal dignity and hygiene. I do not understand this mentality.
"Alcohol" isn't an activity. The consumption of it is. I didn't notice any particular Euro trend in my time. Brits, we Aussies, and North Americans do their fair share, and yes, there is a work/life balance that often needs to be addressed. Bear in mind that many expats are escaping from unemployment, the ex got the house etc. In China they find they have a good local income, are generally accorded respect by their students, the booze is so cheap........too many factors to include. So being too judgemental isn't helpful.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Escaped Lunatic on March 04, 2013, 05:24:45 AM
"Alcohol" isn't an activity. The consumption of it is.

This leaves out some other alcohol activities.

Collecting it, convincing others to consume too much, speculating on which is fake and which is real while shopping, etc.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: yli on March 04, 2013, 08:31:36 AM
"Alcohol" isn't an activity. The consumption of it is.

This leaves out some other alcohol activities.

Collecting it, convincing others to consume too much, speculating on which is fake and which is real while shopping, etc.


It's a lifestyle!
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Day Dreamer on March 04, 2013, 11:25:43 AM
I don't have any issue whatsoever with anyone who wants to get shitfaced, pie-eyed, three sheets to the wind, blind stinking drunk, whatever. Just don't call me at 7AM the NEXT day and ask me to cover your REGULAR SCHEDULED CLASSES   llllllllll

Nor do a want a call from some stupid-visor asking me to cover and they'll owe me a favour that will never be repaid   asasasasas
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: piglet on March 04, 2013, 11:31:36 AM
It is true though that in SOME expat circles there is a certain amount of pressure to imbibe of the alcoholid beverage to the extent that you are sometimes regarded as "peculiar" if you don't join in. I have come to enjoy the odd tipple beer,wine quite often but this has been a gradual journey. When I was a student I hated it and felt pressured to join in to the extent that I sometimes said I was on antibiotics so as not to have to get rounds in to keep up with everyone. Whereupon everyone would exclaim "Oh your poor thing!". I can count the number of times I have been completely inebriated as in legless, on one hand.Can't say I enjoyed it an awful lot. A nice social drink or three,fine.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: yli on March 04, 2013, 12:41:20 PM
I run in a young, professional circle where people have high income, high stress jobs working for multinationals. China is apparently still a hardship posting for these folks and they've been compensating by partying way too hard. I either need to stop bucking to peer pressure or find new friends because I find myself drinking rather heavily lately, if only to keep up appearances.

I think they imbibe a lot more than many of you guys, who are older (but still young at heart, don't worry), more experienced, have settled down here for good. Many of you have family lives including spouses and children and I'm still at the age where most people in my peer group are dissatisfied if they fucked less than 3 girls that weekend. Certainly, being younger and more reckless tends to lead to more drunken benders than if you have a wife and kids to go home to.

I'm not trying to be judgmental mind you, but I may have spoken in haste and overgeneralized. Certainly not all expats party too hard all the time but it's certainly a part of the landscape in the Middle Kingdom.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: bobrage on March 04, 2013, 01:06:03 PM
...China is apparently still a hardship posting...

Marketing Consultancy Idea #3213

Cut your budget through mandatory "acculturation training" for all overseas postings - offer available to depressed economies only.  Guaranteed to go down well with HR and that one guy on the board whose kid has a degree in anthropology and believes that buying the right person a bottle of Moutai is a prudent and reliable strategy for increasing share prices.   
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: yli on March 04, 2013, 01:11:59 PM
I'm a stupid man. Please explain how mandatory "acculturation training" would cut the budget.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: bobrage on March 04, 2013, 01:23:37 PM
I'm a stupid man. Please explain how mandatory "acculturation training" would cut the budget.

Instead of paying people an allowance for an overseas posting, multinational companies should send people down to their HR department where a person in a funny skirt tells them that to do business effectively in Asia they need to adapt to the new cultural context and if they miss their expense account then they are not only terrible business people but also racist.  

[edit]

Of course, as a consultant, you are charging $200 and hour for giving this advice - if you can't get paid for insulting people then frankly I don't believe in Capitalism any more!  
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: yli on March 04, 2013, 01:33:43 PM
I think such training should be mandatory regardless of the presence of an expense account. I've seen expats in a bunch of nations that are one step from putting on a pith helmet and going out to shoot natives.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: bobrage on March 04, 2013, 01:39:24 PM
I've seen expats in a bunch of nations that are one step from putting on a pith helmet and going out to shoot natives.

Well, safety first 'bro.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Granny Mae on March 04, 2013, 10:26:09 PM
I either need to stop bucking to peer pressure or find new friends because I find myself drinking rather heavily lately, if only to keep up appearances.

yli, If only we could put an old head on young shoulders! To be honest though it sounds as if you know what you should do. I don't think that Sunshine would be too happy if the man she met suddenly became someone else because of peer pressure related alcohol binges. I think you are better than that. bfbfbfbfbf I used to drink sparkling wine, but I ended up not being able to go out and drink because I became a very angry person when I drank. I finally woke up to myself and cut back to one only half a glass of red wine mixed with lemonade. I stopped that finally about 4 or 5 years ago and I am very thankful that I was able to do that. It is a VERY hard habit to break yli once your body gets used to alcohol. I know young folk who regularly go over to Bali and other places and they drink far too much and really misbehave themselves because they think that no one from "home" can see them. I try to tell them that  things will change and they will eventually have to settle down somewhere and they will feel that something is missing. By that time they may have become alcoholics and their life will probably become one drama after another. You will hear me say it many times yli, but life is far too short to mess it up with stupidity. I know how quickly my life has passed and there is nothing I can do about that now. bibibibibi
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: gonzo on March 05, 2013, 12:51:01 AM
I think such training should be mandatory regardless of the presence of an expense account. I've seen expats in a bunch of nations that are one step from putting on a pith helmet and going out to shoot natives.
One good thing about being a teacher in China, as opposed to "expat", is that you essentially live in Chinese society. You are part of the fabric, even if an imported artificial part. Some manage this better than others, but very few would go home with totally negative, stereotyped views.
As the cliche goes: You won't change China, but China will change you.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: BrandeX on March 05, 2013, 04:15:44 AM
I'm a stupid man. Please explain how mandatory "acculturation training" would cut the budget.

Instead of paying people an allowance for an overseas posting, multinational companies should send people down to their HR department where a person in a funny skirt tells them that to do business effectively in Asia they need to adapt to the new cultural context and if they miss their expense account then they are not only terrible business people but also racist. 

[edit]

Of course, as a consultant, you are charging $200 and hour for giving this advice - if you can't get paid for insulting people then frankly I don't believe in Capitalism any more! 
Instead, companies should first attempt to hire expats that are already living here (or in the target country). Everyone knows what it's like to be a newbie, yet those are exactly the people companies send overseas to manage their affairs, instead of first trying to find someone already acclimatized to the local culture that has been living there for some time.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: yli on March 05, 2013, 05:24:36 AM
I think such training should be mandatory regardless of the presence of an expense account. I've seen expats in a bunch of nations that are one step from putting on a pith helmet and going out to shoot natives.
One good thing about being a teacher in China, as opposed to "expat", is that you essentially live in Chinese society. You are part of the fabric, even if an imported artificial part. Some manage this better than others, but very few would go home with totally negative, stereotyped views.
As the cliche goes: You won't change China, but China will change you.

Some 老外 leave after a while, some 老外 stay a long time, some 老外 decide to stay here for good. I think the reasons for staying/leaving are best left for a future thread though. I agree that teachers are more a "part of the fabric" as you say. There's no way you can keep yourself separate from society as a teacher, especially since a large part of your job involves positive social interaction with Chinese students and Chinese colleagues.

The thing is, I think anyone leaving this place with only negative, stereotyped views about China are probably people who hold negative, stereotyped views of every place.

That being said, the more I think about it, the more I realize that alcohol is probably a massive part of Chinese culture and society as well. 干杯!
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: kitano on March 05, 2013, 12:23:04 PM
Answering the discussion on the thread and going off on a bit of a Marxist tangent here haha

Is there really a massive difference between the highly qualified and renumerated people who live in China and don't see any reason to interact with the locals and the highly qualified and renumerated people who live in their own countries and have the same experience?
For example, Mr Stereotypical high grade engineer expat who lives in Shanghai or Beijing and is driven to and from work and has food delivered and never does anything like fight Chinese people for a taxi or buy junk food and junk beer from some hole in the wall wouldn't be doing that at home either, they would likewise be in a big house with a nice car and having things brought in and resenting their surroundings

My main part time job is usually with 16-18 year olds and they are from those sort of families and seem to do lots of study and are often being shipped off to prestigious institutions in places like Singapore or California, I'm sure that likewise they will end up somewhere earning loads and resenting it
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: MK on March 05, 2013, 12:46:16 PM
I used teach near a City Shop (international supermarket) in Shanghai, and I have to say, many of the ex-pats spending thousands on their weekly shop could ask for their cuts of French cheese or slices of German sausage (or order about their Ayi, one presumes) in Mandarin that was much better than mine.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: kitano on March 05, 2013, 01:05:11 PM
I used teach near a City Shop (international supermarket) in Shanghai, and I have to say, many of the ex-pats spending thousands on their weekly shop could ask for their cuts of French cheese or slices of German sausage (or order about their Ayi, one presumes) in Mandarin that was much better than mine.

Hangzhou has loads of rich beautiful young bret easton ellis characters who speak amazing Chinese (studying at Zheijiang Uni and probably already set up for life with their impressive language skills and Chinese friends)

makes me sick lol
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: MK on March 05, 2013, 01:18:01 PM
Ha, I was picturing Christian Bale as Patrick Bateman, leaning over the deli counter whilst pushing a buggy when I wrote that...and he was in Empire of the Sun, weird!
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: yli on March 05, 2013, 02:08:19 PM
I used teach near a City Shop (international supermarket) in Shanghai, and I have to say, many of the ex-pats spending thousands on their weekly shop could ask for their cuts of French cheese or slices of German sausage (or order about their Ayi, one presumes) in Mandarin that was much better than mine.

A lot of companies these days don't send you over unless they're absolutely certain that your Mandarin is functional.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: babala on March 11, 2013, 06:46:45 AM
I'm afraid I disagree with that statement. I hang around with many of the business guys here and I know of one that can speak Chinese and he has been here for 21 years. It's their wives who tend to speak Chinese as they don't have anything to do over here so they take Chinese classes for something to do.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: The Local Dialect on March 11, 2013, 07:13:18 AM
I'm afraid I disagree with that statement. I hang around with many of the business guys here and I know of one that can speak Chinese and he has been here for 21 years. It's their wives who tend to speak Chinese as they don't have anything to do over here so they take Chinese classes for something to do.

I think it depends largely on your sector. There are some industries that are very specialized, and you can't really expect your top people in the field to be bilingual as well. There are also jobs that post people all over the world, for a stint here, a stint there, and of course they don't expect their expat employees to be fluent in every language. I have a friend whose husband has been posted to Vietnam, France, Oman, Algeria, and now, Canada. Language skill has very little to do with his job (I want to say he's a geological surveyor of some sort, but I can't recall 100%). Another friend works in the oil industry, and when they hired foreigners, it was like, you can either get someone who knows the language and culture, or you can get a petrochemical person, but rarely could you get both.

I think it is hard to generalize about the nature of expat work. It is true though that foreigners as a whole are much more fluent in Chinese now than they were even 10 years ago. In another 10 years from now they'll probably be even more fluent still. Chinese is gaining a lot of ground in the West. I suppose it will eventually taper off a bit, like Japanese in the 80s and 90s, but the end result will be that Chinese language skills will probably eventually lose some of their "wow factor." 
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: A-Train on March 11, 2013, 12:30:15 PM
It's a real problem. If you're a manager who doesn't know the language you have to depend on a local who is bi-lingual. And, in China, he aint gonna be loyal to YOU in the long run. He's probably calling you "fish-head" behind your back inside of a month.

Imagine being sent to a subsidiary here that's in a total, financial mess and trying to untangle the ritualized rat's nest of lies, obfuscations and lengthy silences that passes for communication. Even if you knew the language, what's unsaid is more important and, most often, focused questions are met with that Chinese, thousand-mile stare. Meanwhile the big shots back home can't understand why you "can't get to the bottom of a simple problem" and wonder if you've lost your magic. Shit, I had a hard enough time with this sort of thing when I was sent to Canada. And those people are honest.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: babala on March 11, 2013, 12:58:59 PM
LD, it is true that it depends on the sector. The guys I know do tend to high management and some have worked in other countries before coming to China. Suzhou SIP has the highest percentage of foreigners compared to Chinese per the population. There are foreigners here from all different countries. I do find that the managers from Southeast Asia do tend to speak Chinese but not the guys from English speaking countries.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: yli on March 11, 2013, 01:51:39 PM
It's a real problem. If you're a manager who doesn't know the language you have to depend on a local who is bi-lingual. And, in China, he aint gonna be loyal to YOU in the long run. He's probably calling you "fish-head" behind your back inside of a month.

Imagine being sent to a subsidiary here that's in a total, financial mess and trying to untangle the ritualized rat's nest of lies, obfuscations and lengthy silences that passes for communication. Even if you knew the language, what's unsaid is more important and, most often, focused questions are met with that Chinese, thousand-mile stare. Meanwhile the big shots back home can't understand why you "can't get to the bottom of a simple problem" and wonder if you've lost your magic. Shit, I had a hard enough time with this sort of thing when I was sent to Canada. And those people are honest.

I'm one of the people in my office in the role of the "bilingual local". The Chinese people see me as a foreigner and a stooge for the bosses. My American bosses see me as untrustworthy and obviously in collusion with those sneaky, manipulative Chinamen.

It's a crappy position to be in.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: A-Train on March 11, 2013, 02:35:14 PM
It's a real problem. If you're a manager who doesn't know the language you have to depend on a local who is bi-lingual. And, in China, he aint gonna be loyal to YOU in the long run. He's probably calling you "fish-head" behind your back inside of a month.

Imagine being sent to a subsidiary here that's in a total, financial mess and trying to untangle the ritualized rat's nest of lies, obfuscations and lengthy silences that passes for communication. Even if you knew the language, what's unsaid is more important and, most often, focused questions are met with that Chinese, thousand-mile stare. Meanwhile the big shots back home can't understand why you "can't get to the bottom of a simple problem" and wonder if you've lost your magic. Shit, I had a hard enough time with this sort of thing when I was sent to Canada. And those people are honest.

I'm one of the people in my office in the role of the "bilingual local". The Chinese people see me as a foreigner and a stooge for the bosses. My American bosses see me as untrustworthy and obviously in collusion with those sneaky, manipulative Chinamen.

It's a crappy position to be in.

Don't envy you. Somewhere in there is a legitimate, wholesome career path. I wish you all the best navigating it.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Stil on March 11, 2013, 03:55:10 PM

Shit, I had a hard enough time with this sort of thing when I was sent to Canada. And those people are honest.


Being Canadian, I must say this is not true.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: yli on March 11, 2013, 04:35:48 PM
Quote from: Stil
Being Canadian, I must say this is not true.

Typical Canadian modesty. Of course Canadians are honest.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: A-Train on March 11, 2013, 05:01:04 PM

Shit, I had a hard enough time with this sort of thing when I was sent to Canada. And those people are honest.


Being Canadian, I must say this is not true.

Damn. Another lifeline to sanity, cut off at the ledge.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Escaped Lunatic on March 13, 2013, 01:11:16 AM
I'm one of the people in my office in the role of the "bilingual local". The Chinese people see me as a foreigner and a stooge for the bosses. My American bosses see me as untrustworthy and obviously in collusion with those sneaky, manipulative Chinamen.

Perhaps you are a foreign stooge who is also in collusion with those sneaky, manipulative locals? ahahahahah
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: yli on March 13, 2013, 10:49:03 AM

Perhaps you are a foreign stooge who is also in collusion with those sneaky, manipulative locals? ahahahahah


It never hurts to play both sides!
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Guangzhou Writer on March 27, 2013, 06:58:24 PM
Have run into some commonwealthers who really, really hate USA merkins. Really hate me. No fun being on the receiving end of that.

The foreigner death stare.

Considering the high percentage of flakes, a bit disappointed that the liars have always been boring or malicious instead of occasionally entertaining. Lacking balance for some reason over here.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: George on March 27, 2013, 07:12:28 PM
Quote
Have run into some commonwealthers who really, really hate USA merkins.
Well, who could  love an expensive Made-in-the-USA pubic wig??  ahahahahah ahahahahah ahahahahah
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Escaped Lunatic on March 28, 2013, 06:07:02 AM
As much as it tortures my soul to endorse anything that George says, bkbkbkbkbk
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Day Dreamer on March 28, 2013, 01:19:08 PM
Have run into some commonwealthers who really, really hate USA merkins. Really hate me. No fun being on the receiving end of that.

The foreigner death stare.

Considering the high percentage of flakes, a bit disappointed that the liars have always been boring or malicious instead of occasionally entertaining. Lacking balance for some reason over here.

I found that EVERY foriegner I've every met eventually says something stupid and incredibly insulting towards EVERYBODY
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: A-Train on March 28, 2013, 03:07:11 PM
Have run into some commonwealthers who really, really hate USA merkins. Really hate me. No fun being on the receiving end of that.

The foreigner death stare.

Considering the high percentage of flakes, a bit disappointed that the liars have always been boring or malicious instead of occasionally entertaining. Lacking balance for some reason over here.

I found that EVERY foriegner I've every met eventually says something stupid and incredibly insulting towards EVERYBODY

And this is different from everyday life by everyday people everywhere, how?
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Stil on March 28, 2013, 03:21:10 PM

I found that EVERY foriegner I've every met eventually says something stupid and incredibly insulting towards EVERYBODY


Yeah, It's tough. Sometimes I'm not in the mood, but even then I'll still make every effort to say something that will annoy everyone.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: A-Train on March 28, 2013, 03:44:04 PM

I found that EVERY foriegner I've every met eventually says something stupid and incredibly insulting towards EVERYBODY


Yeah, It's tough. Sometimes I'm not in the mood, but even then I'll still make every effort to say something that will annoy everyone.

Well, that just stands to reason.  A shot's a shot.  Hard to figure which is more satisfying.  A home run when you're in the zone?  Or a double when you're struggling just to make contact?  Personally, so long as it's a hard shot up the middle, I'm a happy guy.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Day Dreamer on March 28, 2013, 10:29:05 PM
Have run into some commonwealthers who really, really hate USA merkins. Really hate me. No fun being on the receiving end of that.

The foreigner death stare.

Considering the high percentage of flakes, a bit disappointed that the liars have always been boring or malicious instead of occasionally entertaining. Lacking balance for some reason over here.

I found that EVERY foriegner I've every met eventually says something stupid and incredibly insulting towards EVERYBODY

My point was don't single out the Commonwealthers who hate Americans, nor vicy - versy
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Guangzhou Writer on March 30, 2013, 10:41:51 AM
Yeah, I dunno. I don't want to focus on a bad experience I had. It was just surprising to be coming from a native English speaker because all the others from his country I'd met during prior travels had been the *most* laid back people in the hostel, etc.

I was supposed to room with this guy for two weeks (it turned into six) and when I was taken to the apartment he'd arrived in a few hours earlier, he refused to shake my hand and I got a very bad vibe. I should have trusted my instincts, but I actually couldn't believe my own feelings since it was the first time I'd ever felt hate directed at me. He verbally confirmed my first impression several times and I tried to blow it off. Denial, denial, denial.

Lesson learned: what people say is important.

Over the years in China, I met a few others from his land that obviously felt the same way about people like me, although I wasn't living with them. I've extrapolated from my experiences that this is a recurring proclivity for people in his country, so blah, blah, blah.

Let's just say that now I know, to some extent, how a Japanese might feel living in China.
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Stil on March 30, 2013, 09:09:42 PM
Yeah, I dunno. I don't want to focus on a bad experience I had. It was just surprising to be coming from a native English speaker because all the others from his country I'd met during prior travels had been the *most* laid back people in the hostel, etc.

I was supposed to room with this guy for two weeks (it turned into six) and when I was taken to the apartment he'd arrived in a few hours earlier, he refused to shake my hand and I got a very bad vibe. I should have trusted my instincts, but I actually couldn't believe my own feelings since it was the first time I'd ever felt hate directed at me. He verbally confirmed my first impression several times and I tried to blow it off. Denial, denial, denial.

Lesson learned: what people say is important.

Over the years in China, I met a few others from his land that obviously felt the same way about people like me, although I wasn't living with them. I've extrapolated from my experiences that this is a recurring proclivity for people in his country, so blah, blah, blah.

Let's just say that now I know, to some extent, how a Japanese might feel living in China.

What?
Title: Re: Things other expats do that drive you insane
Post by: Guangzhou Writer on March 31, 2013, 12:07:20 AM
Yeah, I dunno. ...

What?
The sequence of posts was interrupted by the page break. I was responding to the previous:

Have run into some commonwealthers who really, really hate USA merkins. Really hate me. No fun being on the receiving end of that.

The foreigner death stare.

Considering the high percentage of flakes, a bit disappointed that the liars have always been boring or malicious instead of occasionally entertaining. Lacking balance for some reason over here.

I found that EVERY foriegner I've every met eventually says something stupid and incredibly insulting towards EVERYBODY

My point was don't single out the Commonwealthers who hate Americans, nor vicy - versy