Raoul's China Saloon (V4.0 Beta)

The Bar Room => The BS-Wrestling Pit => Topic started by: Calach Pfeffer on September 25, 2019, 07:06:58 AM

Title: Globalization vs China: let's decouple
Post by: Calach Pfeffer on September 25, 2019, 07:06:58 AM
If the advantages of China in the globalization scheme of things were cheap labor, lots of customers, and NO FREAKING DOWNSIDE WHATSOEVER, how close should various economies be to saying screw you guys we're going to Bangladesh?

Shall we do the checklist?

Labor: no longer so cheap, and not really ever going to be again until "robots"

Market: are they buying foreign? They must be, surely, but government intervention is screwing producers and importers left and right

Downside 1: it gets called "theft on a grand scale", but really it's - well, yeah, theft
Downside 2: so little reciprocity, you have to wonder what Chinese think "globalization" is, an unguarded larder?
Downside 3: how many blind eyes can we all turn to everything else that goes on there? I mean, government repression is one thing, but the industrialization of same?

Google is already spending money to shift Pixel production out of China. Shouldn't we all be supporting the less monumental communist dictatorships? Roll on Thailand, Vietnam, Bangladesh!
Title: Re: Globalization vs China: let's decouple
Post by: kitano on September 25, 2019, 02:38:27 PM
This is just a random thought on the topic, but a big thing missing is the corporation. China does have plenty of satellites and are acquiring more, but there is nothing like the confusing relationship between America and Europe and maybe Japan from the days of American empire.
The Chinese national myth is very much based in the old days not the future, which is not a great one

My take on it more soberly is that it's not very useful to say 'the chinese' . Chinese people seem more alienated than westerners to me, even a lot of seemingly comfortable people will go along with the myths with the desperation that hillbilly sort of people do, like they really need that identity of being Chinese because they don't trust what day to day life offers
No sorry, I only had a couple of beers but I'm not sure if that makes sense but I'll leave it up and maybe fix it tomorrow
Title: Re: Globalization vs China: let's decouple
Post by: Calach Pfeffer on September 30, 2019, 11:19:12 AM
That alienation might just be a relatively normal Chinese culture reaction to what I suppose is institutionalized national stress. That's to say, alienation kinda is a feature of collectivism anyway...

Actually, I think that's maybe a big part of why China is such a poor partner in a globalized world. Individuals, be they individual students overseas or individual CEOs running their own unique foreign trade operation, don't have a notion of direct reciprocity. Their actions, as far as they are concerned, belong to the collective rather than to themselves. Which begs the question, why then is the collective so poor at negotiating with the rest of the world?

But as to that aspect of the problem, I don't know. It might just be that they're dumb guys from top to bottom.
Title: Re: Globalization vs China: let's decouple
Post by: kitano on September 30, 2019, 03:36:28 PM
I think that it's also worth being a bit more reductive. One thing that I hate is the myth of exceptionalism, I bet that it was very similar with the USA before WW1 with the established European people who dealt with Americans a bit distressed about how they didn't get the subtleties of how it worked.
I also think that the idea of Chinese collectivism is bullshit. Just like us, they have a weird government and they go along with a lot of it unwittingly and some of it wittingly (??)
I think that the rise of China was very similar to Apple, they liked that walled garden idea, and from my biased perspective that probably was a smart strategy for the transition to capitalism. There were no guarantees that they would succeed, it remains to be seen if they did.
Is it collectivism or just capitalism? The USA has this amazing achievement in the post war period of investing in social insurance to the point where you get a house if you work not only in USA, but also in Europe and Japan. But the USSR was doing amazing things in parallel. You have to wonder how much of China struggling to become a superpower is any different to any upstart, and how it will look as history. One thing that I'm sure we both agree on is what a load of bullshit the Chinese idea of the past is, they seem to conflate the Ming and Song dynasty with the 1970s which is shrouded in mystery and laid the foundations for Chinese capitalism...

I'm drunk, hope that makes sense
Title: Re: Globalization vs China: let's decouple
Post by: Calach Pfeffer on October 20, 2019, 05:00:10 AM
Big thing about decoupling is if you do it first, you might lose less money.

Or, you can let China marshal their own options and boot you for a tweet. Let's ask the NBA for a comment.