Raoul's China Saloon (V5.0) Beta
The Bar Room => The Legalities Board: Visas, Permits, Taxes, and More! (ON-TOPIC) => Topic started by: terences on June 16, 2012, 05:46:04 PM
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I have ended my first contract as of last week and am now in the process of looking for new employment, hopefully to start by July. My current visa/resident permit expires this September. For better or worse, I received my TESOL training (and current resident permit) through Will Excel. When I wrote to them for advice, which at times can feel like pulling teeth, I was told by the owner that I need to cancel my current FEC so that any new school can apply for another one when the time came. I have paid for and received that "service." Is there truly a valid reason for having done this? Will it cause any possibly complications?
With that out of the way, my next issue is with regards to extending my residence permit. In talking to some schools, many do not offer a work visa, or at least not to me. I am curious, how do those schools plan to employ teachers if they can't or won't provide a working visa? Do they expect you to work illegally? Are there issues I should be made aware of when renewing my RP? How long before it expires should I look to be renewing? If I were to pay to renew it on my own, what I could I expect to pay? I have heard varying numbers. It briefly dawned on my yesterday that I could merely pay Will Excel for another class, get a working visa out of it, and then go to work wherever I pleased. But then I added up the costs (the cost of the class + the missed month of work) is greater than the cost of just paying for it out of pocket.
It feels like I missing some critical knowledge that could possibly help me on this front, but I'm too ignorant to even ask the right questions. I do know that one of my chief problems is that I do not have a college degree, and thus many options are closed to me. I am still confident enough in my ability to find a job, just not where I want or need it. Truthfully, I am still kind of amazed that I managed to work where I did for the last year.
Another question I was curious about was spousal visas. I am married to a Chinese citizen. When do I qualify for one? How do I get one? Does having one allow me to work? Any information that you could point me to would be greatly appreciated.
Lastly, any pointer or tips for job hunting in Beijing without a degree? I have one offer right now, and I am expecting to meet with the school in a few days. Are there any known schools in Beijing I should consider investigating given my circumstances (no degree and need a work visa)? I will tell you the reason for focusing on Beijing is because I am in the process of trying to convert to Judaism. The only synagogue in China that I am aware of for my chosen branch is in Beijing.
I am a complete noob when it comes to these issues. I hope some here can at least point me in the right direction.
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... my next issue is with regards to extending my residence permit. In talking to some schools, many do not offer a work visa, or at least not to me. I am curious, how do those schools plan to employ teachers if they can't or won't provide a working visa? Do they expect you to work illegally?
Some do. They are very definitely to be avoided. There is some overview discussion at http://wikitravel.org/en/China#Work_visas
Are there issues I should be made aware of when renewing my RP? How long before it expires should I look to be renewing? If I were to pay to renew it on my own, what I could I expect to pay?
At least as a general rule, that is impossible. You need an employer to sponsor you and the employer must have a license to do that.
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It makes it a lot easier for us to give you good answers if you break all your questions into individual threads... bjbjbjbjbj
You really should read our Visas/Permits monster at http://raoulschinasaloon.com/index.php?topic=6736.0 (http://raoulschinasaloon.com/index.php?topic=6736.0) It'll help answer a lot of your questions!
Another question I was curious about was spousal visas. I am married to a Chinese citizen. When do I qualify for one? How do I get one? Does having one allow me to work?
You're eligible for a Spouse Visa once married. Your spouse should initiate the process by taking you to your local PSB visa office and applying for it. However, the Spouse Visa is a form of L (Tourist) Visa and DOES NOT convey the right to work in China. In order to work legally, you'd still need a Chinese company to get you a Work Permit...and at 99.9% of schools, that requires a college degree.
... my next issue is with regards to extending my residence permit. In talking to some schools, many do not offer a work visa, or at least not to me. I am curious, how do those schools plan to employ teachers if they can't or won't provide a working visa? Do they expect you to work illegally?
Some do. They are very definitely to be avoided. There is some overview discussion at http://wikitravel.org/en/China#Work_visas
Actually, there's lots of discussion of this right here on The Saloon, too.
"Work illegally" is EXACTLY what these schools expect you to do. They're perfectly happy to risk your ass for their profit...and that's what the score here really is.
The rules state that a company has to be in business at least a year before they can qualify for a license to employ foreigners. Other places just don't want to mess with the hassle and expense of getting such a license. At the same time, these schools know they can't attract paying customers if they don't have foreign teachers, so they (wrongly) convince those who don't know any better that it's OK to work on a Tourist or Business Visa...and make them illegal foreign labor in China. And that's something you just don't want to be.
As for getting a Residence Permit on your own, Pashley's absolutely right: It can't be done. It's not a question of who pays for it. In order to get a Residence Permit, you first need to get a Work Permit...and that entails a sponsoring company and a college degree.
It used to be really easy to teach legally in China without a degree. Those days are pretty much gone, probably forever. You don't want to be put in the position of working in China without the proper legal documents...the ramifications of getting caught can be pretty horrible, and the probability of getting caught is getting higher all the time.
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Thanks for the answers thus far, but maybe I am not understanding something or I merely phrased it wrong. With regards to these companies who won't provide a visa, is it not that they can't but rather they won't due to the expense? If they could so long as I paid for it, why wouldn't they? In any case, it is not my objective to go that route at all.
Is it permissible to procure the visa going the same route as I did last year, taking the TESOL course over again to get the RP extended? Again, not my objective because I like to keep things easy, but I also like to have situational awareness on certain aspects as well.
Thank you for the spousal visa information. That will be something to look at once I am making money independently (could be a year or two down the road).
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With regards to these companies who won't provide a visa, is it not that they can't but rather they won't due to the expense?
There are no doubt examples of both out there, but in most cases it's because they can't. Again, it's not just a question of getting your Permit; the school first has to get a government license to legally hire foreigners...and schools that don't provide legal papers don't have that license. In some cases it's because they don't want to spend the time and money to get such a license when there are plenty of gullible foreigners out there who will happily work without the Permits, but in most cases it's because they can't get the license.
If your school was able to get you the Permits before but isn't doing so now, it might be that the rules in your province have changed to meet the new standards and the school simply can't get you the Permit any more. Or, they may have had an "arrangement" with a corrupt provincial official to suspend the rules for issuing permits, and that "arrangement" has come to an end.
Is it permissible to procure the visa going the same route as I did last year, taking the TESOL course over again to get the RP extended?
Probably not. A TESOL certificate won't substitute for a college degree.
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My sole advice here would be that since you don't have a degree and are planning on working potentially as an illegal FT, you probably do not want to live in Beijing, next door to Chairman Palpatine and his Stormtroopers...you can work illegally in China, with no degree....it is, obviously, illegal and frowned upon and best done as far away from the HQ of the governtment as possible. Though I would recommend doing the right thing and getting a degree.
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If you're in Beijing and you're noticing a lot of illegal workers/schools, that's because of the high number of students here. Lots of students moonlight as teachers. It isn't legal at all, but students are a relatively cheap source of labor and, best of all, they come with their own visas so schools don't have to worry about paperwork (although they do have to worry about random PSB spot checks).
Nowadays most cities offer residence permits to people married to a Chinese person, so the L visa days are mostly over, but the bad news is that the residence permit still doesn't allow you work.
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Is there any difference between extending a visa and "providing a work visa?" One woman I am talking to said the school cannot provide a working visa. I said I already have the visa, I just need it extended. She then tells me something like "that is much easier."
Can you also answer me on the cancellation of FEC aspect of all this? Is that standard operating procedure to cancel it so the new school can apply for another one?
Just to clarify, if a school cannot provide a "working visa," it more than likely means they do not have the capacity to legally employ me because they lack a license?
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Is there any difference between extending a visa and "providing a work visa?" One woman I am talking to said the school cannot provide a working visa. I said I already have the visa, I just need it extended. She then tells me something like "that is much easier."
Your doing the old confusing the visa and permit thing again.
Your visa has long since expired. You only need the visa to get into the country and once you get the residence permit, your visa is cancelled. So you DON'T need a new visa. You need a new residence permit.
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Dude, again, please read our Visas/Permits guide at http://raoulschinasaloon.com/index.php?topic=6736.0 (http://raoulschinasaloon.com/index.php?topic=6736.0). It would clarify an awful lot for you...
"Extending a visa" and "providing a visa" are the same thing.
I'm a little confused now...have you changed employers, or are you trying to extend with a current employer? If your Residence Permit was provided by a previous employer, that will change the situation...
A visa, regardless of type, does not make it legal for you to live in China and work for a Chinese company. What you need are a Work Permit and a Residence Permit. A Work (Z) Visa just gets you into the country and gives you 30 days for your school to get the Permits for you. Hopefully, you have a Residence Permit (NOT just a Z Visa) in your passport!
If you already have a Residence Permit, your school might be able to renew or extend it. However, it's very possible that your employer will not be able to extend your Permits if you don't have a degree...it depends on the provincial authorities and your employer's connections. This is something you urgently need to clarify with your school.
If your school can't get you the Work Permit and Residence Permit, it may be that they lack the license needed to legally employ foreigners. It might also be the case that they can't provide the Permits for you specifically, because you don't have a degree.
Do other foreign teachers at your school have Residence Permits issued by that school? If so, it's probably your lack of degree that's the problem. If nobody there has legal Permits from that school, and the school is simply unable to provide them for anyone, then your school is an illegal shop and you really don't want to work there.
For the FEC...yes, your school will need to cancel an FEC from another school before they can get you a new one. However, if your school can get you an FEC, they should also be able to get you proper Work and Residence Permits. Something is starting to smell pretty fishy here...
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If you can afford it, take some time off, stay inside legally on a spouse visa, and find an adequate online degree program. Grab that diploma and then you can try to get a nice legal job somewhere that provides a proper residence permit.
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I fully understand that my visa has expired, but for the sake of the discussion I am referring to my residence permit is as the visa.
So you replied, but did not provide me an answer. I need my residence permit renewed. I would like to know how I can do that. Who can you point me to that can solve my problem?
Is there any difference between extending a visa and "providing a work visa?" One woman I am talking to said the school cannot provide a working visa. I said I already have the visa, I just need it extended. She then tells me something like "that is much easier."
Your doing the old confusing the visa and permit thing again.
Your visa has long since expired. You only need the visa to get into the country and once you get the residence permit, your visa is cancelled. So you DON'T need a new visa. You need a new residence permit.
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I assure you I have read it. Twice as a matter of fact.
I want to change employers. I am currently in Taiyuan and I want to be in Beijing. For the sake of argument on this, Beijing can mean anywhere in China, because in the end I would like to stay in this country no matter the city.
I have a residence permit, and I entered on a Z visa last August. My visa paperwork was shuttled courtesy of Will Excel in Harbin. I was "sponsored" which means I only had to make a small deposit to Will Excel, then the remaining balance was paid by my school.
The school I is/was assigned to is a private primary/high school in Taiyuan. During this whole time, Will Excel held onto the FEC. I now want to change locations, and my visa (oops there I go again) residence permit expires in September. I'll be honest, I do not know what legal capacity my current school has to hire, renew, extend, what have you. If they are illegal, I could care less, because at this point my contract is finished and they were a damn good employer.
There is nothing fishy going on, but no one is asking me the right questions apparently. I have to be honest, at this stage, it almost seems less problematic to attend TESOL training again, get the visa (erp residence permit), and get my silly ass back to work. If anyone can point me to known schools that can hire me despite the lack of a degree and provide me with the visa (damn I said it again) I need, I am all ears. You all are the experts here and I am a rank amateur in comparison.
Dude, again, please read our Visas/Permits guide at http://raoulschinasaloon.com/index.php?topic=6736.0 (http://raoulschinasaloon.com/index.php?topic=6736.0). It would clarify an awful lot for you...
"Extending a visa" and "providing a visa" are the same thing.
I'm a little confused now...have you changed employers, or are you trying to extend with a current employer? If your Residence Permit was provided by a previous employer, that will change the situation...
A visa, regardless of type, does not make it legal for you to live in China and work for a Chinese company. What you need are a Work Permit and a Residence Permit. A Work (Z) Visa just gets you into the country and gives you 30 days for your school to get the Permits for you. Hopefully, you have a Residence Permit (NOT just a Z Visa) in your passport!
If you already have a Residence Permit, your school might be able to renew or extend it. However, it's very possible that your employer will not be able to extend your Permits if you don't have a degree...it depends on the provincial authorities and your employer's connections. This is something you urgently need to clarify with your school.
If your school can't get you the Work Permit and Residence Permit, it may be that they lack the license needed to legally employ foreigners. It might also be the case that they can't provide the Permits for you specifically, because you don't have a degree.
Do other foreign teachers at your school have Residence Permits issued by that school? If so, it's probably your lack of degree that's the problem. If nobody there has legal Permits from that school, and the school is simply unable to provide them for anyone, then your school is an illegal shop and you really don't want to work there.
For the FEC...yes, your school will need to cancel an FEC from another school before they can get you a new one. However, if your school can get you an FEC, they should also be able to get you proper Work and Residence Permits. Something is starting to smell pretty fishy here...
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you must go to the new school. you cannot renew it until you have signed the contract with the new school. They will then need to apply for a new FEC because they are a new school. Then they can apply for a new residence permit. If it is in a new province or in many cases even a new school you will probably also have to go for a new medical. All of this is going to be difficult for you without that important piece of paper we like to refer to as a degree.
If you do not have a new school to go to you will not be able to renew your residence permit. All you will be able to get is an L visa (tourist visa) if you can get the letters from your current school - then you will have to go through the whole process of getting a new z visa including a trip out of country if you get a new job.
Depending on the city/province how hard all of these things will be.
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Alright, now we're getting somewhere.
I have no problems having to take a new physical. I can sleep through that. It is complete and total speculation for anyone to answer this, but how do you fathom Will Excel was able to do it?
you must go to the new school. you cannot renew it until you have signed the contract with the new school. They will then need to apply for a new FEC because they are a new school. Then they can apply for a new residence permit. If it is in a new province or in many cases even a new school you will probably also have to go for a new medical. All of this is going to be difficult for you without that important piece of paper we like to refer to as a degree.
If you do not have a new school to go to you will not be able to renew your residence permit. All you will be able to get is an L visa (tourist visa) if you can get the letters from your current school - then you will have to go through the whole process of getting a new z visa including a trip out of country if you get a new job.
Depending on the city/province how hard all of these things will be.
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Well, Will Excel probably "has" the ability to hire foreign teachers legally, and then they're farming their FTs out to other schools. I put "has" in quotation marks because it is entirely possible they're getting some other outfit do the visa/RP paperwork for a fee. It is entirely likely that Will Excel forged a degree for you (that you were never aware of) in order to process your visa/RP paperwork -- this happens pretty often.
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Ok, thanks for giving me your opinion on this.
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Sorry, I thought that was clear... Adam is right...you can only obtain or renew a Residence Permit through an employer. When you're job searching, you need to make absolutely sure a prospective new employer can offer you a Residence Permit.
Also as Adam indicated, this is going to be difficult for you because you don't have a degree. The laws of China, which are fragmented among provinces and cities, have been in the process of changing. The new rules state that a degree is required in order to get a Work Permit as a teacher. Generally, the Work Permit is a prerequisite to getting a Residence Permit; even if you can get the RP through your spouse, you'll still need a Work Permit in order to work legally.
How did Will-Excel do it? Several possibilities...
It may be that they're based in one of the rapidly-declining number of locations that doesn't yet require a degree, or at least didn't at the time you got yours.
It may be that they listed you as something other than a Teacher when applying for your Work Permit- some occupations don't require a degree. This is, of course, illegal.
It may be that they outright bribed their provincial officials to waive the rules on their behalf.
Or, as TLD indicated, they may have forged a degree for you. Many possibilities...
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I can see that the rest of this month should be pretty revealing as to my future in China. Because man is this a pain in the ass.
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Because man is this a pain in the ass.
You said it, brother. The constant hustle for legal papers is one of the major downsides of expat life in China... ananananan
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Yes, and regrettably I am not independently wealthy, nor is my wife for that matter. So residing here on just a spousal visa is not really that desirable (or realistic) of an option. I definitely need to see what my current school can do, but continue looking for possibilities elsewhere in China.
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One thing you really have to realize is that, as mentioned earlier in this thread, a TESOL is not and never will be a substitute for a degree. The Powers That Be in China are currently clamping down with a heavy hand on illegally employed laowai. It sounds to me as if your last school sweetened the application form with a hongbao filled with pink bills. If you are caught working here illegally, the minions of Kang Sheng will lose not one iota of sleep putting you on a plane home, spousal visa notwithstanding. You can have your residence permit renewed, most probably at another unlicensed school who is willing to bribe officials. Again, I do wholeheartedly recommend you do not attempt this in Beijing. The further out in the country you go, the better the possibility of renewing Res Permit and the less chance of being purged by officious people in uniforms.
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I would definately forget about Beijing. It may be possible to still get a legal work visa (I stress may) if you head to an area that is very undesirable to the average foreigner. I'm thinking about Gansu or Ningxia.
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Trust me, I will be doing nothing illegal, like forging a degree. If the school is bribing officials, there's nothing I can do about that. If I do not have a job by next month, I will most definitely be exploring other options outside of China.
I wrote Will Excel earlier to get their opinion and advice. We'll see what they they have to say if anything at all.
One thing you really have to realize is that, as mentioned earlier in this thread, a TESOL is not and never will be a substitute for a degree. The Powers That Be in China are currently clamping down with a heavy hand on illegally employed laowai. It sounds to me as if your last school sweetened the application form with a hongbao filled with pink bills. If you are caught working here illegally, the minions of Kang Sheng will lose not one iota of sleep putting you on a plane home, spousal visa notwithstanding. You can have your residence permit renewed, most probably at another unlicensed school who is willing to bribe officials. Again, I do wholeheartedly recommend you do not attempt this in Beijing. The further out in the country you go, the better the possibility of renewing Res Permit and the less chance of being purged by officious people in uniforms.
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Other than the obvious things like a recruiter asking for money from me for a job, a school telling me they'll give me 6000 yuan per month for 30 hours of teaching, or a school telling me it's no problem to work with an F visa, what if anything can I do to ensure the job is fairly legit? I understand there are no guarantees in this world. What things indicate an employer is on the up and up rather than the typical things to indicate an employer is hinky?
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Other than the obvious things like a recruiter asking for money from me for a job, a school telling me they'll give me 6000 yuan per month for 30 hours of teaching, or a school telling me it's no problem to work with an F visa, what if anything can I do to ensure the job is fairly legit? I understand there are no guarantees in this world. What things indicate an employer is on the up and up rather than the typical things to indicate an employer is hinky?
your best bet is to ask around... and the best place to do that is right here... agagagagag
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You are right in that you have no way of knowing if the school that hires you is going to be bribing officials or forging a degree on your behalf, and, to be honest, schools don't do those sorts of things unless they know they're going to get away with it.
Of course you need to be up front about the fact that you don't have a degree so that the school can give you a straight answer.
I will say that if you already have a proper residence permit, it IS much easier just to have it transferred over to the new employer (with a release) than it is to do the whole thing again from scratch. This may be what some of the schools are alluding to. I am not absolutely sure, but I think once you have the work visa/RP already, when the new school applies for a switch they do not have to show all of the original documents all over again, at least if the switch is within the same province. Again, I can't say this with 100% certainty, but when your contact said it was easier to extend/renew, that might be what she meant.
To be honest, I don't think there are any provinces at all that don't officially require a degree to work legally. Whether or not those rules are enforced or not is an entirely different story, but the trend over the years has definitely been towards a stricter interpretation of the laws.
And look, I'm not going to advocate working illegally, but you're married so you need to stay in the country, going home is not an option. If worse comes to worst, get the spousal RP. The process is pretty simple and at the very least it will buy you some time. I am sure you'll be able figure something out.
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TLD, the spousal RP is a pretty new development. Are you sure it's available everywhere?
Of course, whether it's RP or an L Visa, he still has to solve the Work Permit problem... llllllllll
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RD, I'm pretty sure they just started automatically doing RPs instead of L visas a couple of years ago (at least 2, maybe 3), and I don't see why they wouldn't be available everywhere, but I can't say for certain. The process is exactly the same as with the old L visa and you don't even have to ask the visa officers for it, it is what they'll give you by default now. I don't know who among the Saloonies will cop to having one, but I am positive there are members here who do, living in various provinces. ;) In any case, it is easy enough to find out, have your wife call up the entry/exit department of your city's PSB and ask them. OP, if you go this route, what you'll want her to ask about is a 居留许可 for the purpose of 探亲. You can theoretically get this permit in the city where you're living if your spouse also has registered a temporary residence permit for that city, otherwise you have to go to your spouse's hometown.
And no, it doesn't solve the work permit problem but the guy has a wife here, so he has to stay in the country. I am assuming that going back to his home country without his wife is not an option, and he's not going to be able to get her a visa to his own country before his Chinese visa expires. He might need a quick fix (in order to stay in the country) and without a degree his legal options are pretty limited. The spousal RP is a much better option than a regular L visa or an F visa, and cheaper too.
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Thank you for your response, it is much appreciated. I do think the spousal visa is something to have as a nice backup. How much is the spousal visa?
You are right in that you have no way of knowing if the school that hires you is going to be bribing officials or forging a degree on your behalf, and, to be honest, schools don't do those sorts of things unless they know they're going to get away with it.
Of course you need to be up front about the fact that you don't have a degree so that the school can give you a straight answer.
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The price is going to depend on the color of your passport and can vary depending the political mood, but for Americans it was 400rmb as recently as January of this year.