Beijing vs Shanghai! Plus English Training Mills

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Hannah

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Beijing vs Shanghai! Plus English Training Mills
« on: November 01, 2012, 05:01:45 PM »
Hi all!  :dancemj:

Okay before I get too distracted with all the emoticons...

My name is Hannah and I love this site! It's already helped so much with the million+ questions I have about China and living there so thank you to Raoul, the admins, and everyone else!

Me, my husband, and our good family friend are all planning on moving to China to teach english. Now, our friend has his bachelor's, but neither my husband or I do. Since we all want to try and live close by or together we are thinking we are going to end up going with a franchise company and while I've read lots of bad reviews...I'm hoping some of them have to be okay!

We have been talking with Expertise English in Beijing...any thoughts here? Any thoughts on Beijing in general? The best and the worst?

We also have been talking with DD dragon in Shanghai...any thoughts here? And also Beijing compared to Shanghai?

Thank you so much for any and all hope!

~Hannah
<3 Hannah

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BrandeX

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Re: Beijing vs Shanghai! Plus English Training Mills
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2012, 06:20:56 PM »
You don't have degrees, I would stay out of BJ and SH. As one of the "3 no's" foreigners, I would stick to more rural provinces/cities.

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Hannah

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Re: Beijing vs Shanghai! Plus English Training Mills
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2012, 07:32:07 PM »
Hi BrandeX!

Interesting! Beijing and Shanghai are where we have the majority of our job offers and where we really want to go! Seems the contracts aren't too bad either...8000 RMB, shared housing (though every school has also offered us a housing stipend instead so we can all live together if they can't place my husband and I with our friend) no work on weekends...everything seems pretty standard!

Just curious why you think Beijing and Shanghai aren't good choices for us...
<3 Hannah

Re: Beijing vs Shanghai! Plus English Training Mills
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2012, 08:02:07 PM »
8000rmb a month is really low for Beijing, even with the housing. Shared housing is also generally not a good thing, but what sort of stipend are they offering. In Beijing to house three people you're going to need 3000rmb a month at minimum. How many hours a week are they asking you to teach?

In general, not having a degree is going to limit you to some fairly undesirable jobs. Beijing has some loads of extremely shady training centers. I haven't heard of Expertise but if they're only offering 8000rmb a month that's not very impressive for this city unless they hours are extremely low.

What sort of visa do they say they'll be getting you? In China, although there are always going to be exceptions, you do need a degree to get a work visa and residence permit. That's what Brandex is hinting at.

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Pashley

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Re: Beijing vs Shanghai! Plus English Training Mills
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2012, 08:57:40 PM »
There are several older threads on the relative merits of various cities. Here's one:
http://raoulschinasaloon.com/index.php?topic=5697.0

I like Shanghai, but it is huge (roughly the population of Australia), expensive and air quality leaves something to be desired. Anywhere North of that gets cold winters. Hangzhou is the latitude of New Orleans, Beijing maybe Boston.

Places I've spent some time in and would recommend are Suzhou, Zhuhai & Xiamen. Fuzhou & Nanjing are OK too, just not as nice as those. Others where I've only spent a day or two but liked what I saw and have heard good things from others are Kunming & Chengdu. There are also quite a few reasonable places that I don't know about.
Who put a stop payment on my reality check?

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Raoul F. Duke

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Re: Beijing vs Shanghai! Plus English Training Mills
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2012, 09:40:51 PM »
I've lived in both Beijing and Shanghai and can opine on both, but will instead focus on your lack of degree.

China used to be a haven for people with no degree, and quite easy to find a job in, but IMHO this is no longer the case. Without a degree you're very unlikely to find a good job, and have no guarantee of finding a job at all. The standards are indeed lax in China, but they're getting tighter than they used to be. A degree is generally required for a Residence Permit...and without a Residence Permit you're an illegal migrant worker (if employed at all) in an authoritarian country. Not a position you want to be in. kkkkkkkkkk

My advice? Team up and go to a university...THEN consider China. bjbjbjbjbj
Please don't have to learn all this the hard way... bibibibibi
"Vicodin and dumplings...it's a great combination!" (Anthony Bourdain, in Harbin)

"Here in China we aren't just teaching...
we're building the corrupt, incompetent, baijiu-swilling buttheads of tomorrow!" (Raoul F. Duke)

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cruisemonkey

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Re: Beijing vs Shanghai! Plus English Training Mills
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2012, 01:48:00 PM »
Please don't have to learn all this the hard way... bibibibibi

My sentiment as well. On Chinese job boards, anything with the words 'NO DEGREE NECCESSARY' in the title raises a giant, 'red flag' (not a pun).

OP,
Good luck in your endeavors... but I don't think China is a good choice for you or you husband.
The Koreans once gave me five minutes notice - I didn't know what to do with the extra time.

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Hannah

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Re: Beijing vs Shanghai! Plus English Training Mills
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2012, 02:23:35 PM »
Thanks everyone for the answers!

Thank you Pashley- I'll look at that link and check out your suggestions! :)

@The local dialect- thanks for the insight on the contract! They offered us 7500 rmb (total- all 3 of us) to find housing for ourselves and since both my husband and I have teaching experience they said it wouldn't be a problem getting us the right kind of visa (Z visa I think? But I would need to check the contract again). I definitely don't want to be anywhere or doing anything shady so I'll look into it!

@Raoul- thank you too! I think possibly the catch may be that we both have experience with children and teaching so it may be something where they are able to justify us coming? In all the million plus emails I've sent to different schools only a few have mentioned that a bachelor's was necc. and those I did notice were public schools/universities, etc. Since we all want to be working with kids we have just focused more on the chains focused at young children and I haven't run into many problems at all! But again I want to make sure I'm not doing anything illegal/getting in a sticky situation so I'll make sure to write the schools again and ask if it's going to be an issue!

Thanks again!
<3 Hannah

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Pashley

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Re: Beijing vs Shanghai! Plus English Training Mills
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2012, 03:14:21 PM »
They offered us 7500 rmb (total- all 3 of us) to find housing for ourselves

A good number. 2500 for one person would be tight in a major city -- I pay 2600 (for quite a nice two-bedroom) in the far suburbs of Shanghai and downtown would be far more -- though more than enough in a provincial town. 5000 a couple or 7500 for three should be fine.

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and since both my husband and I have teaching experience they said it wouldn't be a problem getting us the right kind of visa (Z visa I think? But I would need to check the contract again). I definitely don't want to be anywhere or doing anything shady so I'll look into it!

There is some fairly good info under "visas" here:
http://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/China#Work
Who put a stop payment on my reality check?

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cruisemonkey

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Re: Beijing vs Shanghai! Plus English Training Mills
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2012, 03:34:58 PM »
But again I want to make sure I'm not doing anything illegal/getting in a sticky situation so I'll make sure to write the schools again and ask if it's going to be an issue!

If you work on anything but a Z visa/Residence Permit, you're illegal and by definition in a 'sticky situation'. The trouble with writing to the schools and 'asking', is the disreputable ones will simply lie - they'll say "No problem... we can convert a tourist visa to a work visa once you have arrived."; or, "We will send you on a visa run to Hong Kong." However, the chances are pretty good you'll arrive and these things will never happen. You'll be working illegally, thus, making the 'contract' totally meaningless. They might 'farm you out' to other shady schools... taking a cut from what the other shoool pays for you. It's very easy to unwittingly end up in a nightmare situation where your only alternative is cut you losses and pull a 'midnight run'.    
The Koreans once gave me five minutes notice - I didn't know what to do with the extra time.

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Monkey King

Re: Beijing vs Shanghai! Plus English Training Mills
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2012, 03:59:01 PM »
Wasn't there some way, some work around, whereby training schools could still get 'alien work permits' for people that didn't qualify as 'foreign experts'?  I'm sure I read something about that...not sure if it was on the shady side of things or not.

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Raoul F. Duke

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Re: Beijing vs Shanghai! Plus English Training Mills
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2012, 04:52:47 PM »
Hannah, to be legal you need your employer to get you a Work Permit and a Residence Permit. If they have you working on an F (business) Visa or even a tourist (L) Visa, you're being placed at risk for the school's profit...and quite likely getting lied to in the process.

Never take a full-time job that won't give you a Residence Permit!!!!! oooooooooo
"Vicodin and dumplings...it's a great combination!" (Anthony Bourdain, in Harbin)

"Here in China we aren't just teaching...
we're building the corrupt, incompetent, baijiu-swilling buttheads of tomorrow!" (Raoul F. Duke)

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Raoul F. Duke

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Re: Beijing vs Shanghai! Plus English Training Mills
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2012, 04:56:32 PM »
Please read more about visas and permits at http://raoulschinasaloon.com/index.php?topic=6736.0  The ass you save could be your own...
"Vicodin and dumplings...it's a great combination!" (Anthony Bourdain, in Harbin)

"Here in China we aren't just teaching...
we're building the corrupt, incompetent, baijiu-swilling buttheads of tomorrow!" (Raoul F. Duke)

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Hannah

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Re: Beijing vs Shanghai! Plus English Training Mills
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2012, 07:24:11 PM »
Wow- thank you, Raoul/everyone is giving me so much to think about! I just wrote the main school we are looking at in Beijing...let's see what they say about residence permits and work permits and Z visas!

Thank you too Pashley- that's good to know we aren't going to be in a super skeezy place with 7500 RMB. Hopefully 8000 RMB salary wise is enough for us to get by okay?

Mk- interesting! I have no idea what that's all about!

CruiseMonkey- Yes! I feel like I am overly skeptical about everything so we've been writing old teachers and trying to find all the info we can about the school. It's hard making these decisions all online before you go...

I'm anxious to see what happens- I'll let you know when they write back. :)
<3 Hannah

Re: Beijing vs Shanghai! Plus English Training Mills
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2012, 07:47:59 PM »
Yeah, 7500 total for three people will be fine for a housing allowance in Beijing. 8000 is on the low end for Beijing, especially assuming that you'll be teaching 20+ hours a week, as is typical for BJ. That said, there are two of you and you won't starve on that kind of money, it just isn't really that great of a deal.

The only thing I'd be extra cautious about is whether or not they're getting you a Z visa and then a residence permit. Like the others said, the shady schools will lie to get you in the door. If they say come over on an L, we'll change it when you get here, don't take the offer. If they say it is legal to work on an F visa, don't take the offer. With your issue of not having a degree, you need to be extra careful because Chinese law requires a degree (regardless of experience -- there may be some exceptions for certain kinds of experts, but not teachers afaik), so most of the legitimate decent schools won't be able to hire you.