Raoul's China Saloon (V5.0) Beta
The Bar Room => The BS-Wrestling Pit => Topic started by: Hossuru on August 19, 2008, 06:08:43 PM
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If it weren't for bought judges, the Chinese wouldn't have half the gold's they do; especially in gymnastics.
What a joke.
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Un-nice!!!
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Accusations made without proper evidence to support them are pointless. If you have any proof of corruption, then post them.
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Yeah. All the cheating took place well before the judges got involved.
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Exactly what cheating, documented, proved cheating that is are we talking about?
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I would figure Mr N probably means all the myriad forms of doping that can occur to enhance performance.
Pretty hard to corrupt a WHOLE panel of judges - one or two maybe.
Evidence is a good thing.
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Rather silly mudslinging, IMHO. "This or that athelete clearly used doping! That's why he/she won...no, no, obviously all the doctors and all the myriad of tests that the atheletes have to go through were bought and altered! That's why the Chinese atheletes won and not the Western atheletes"....right....that's just pure malicious jingoism, whichever way you look at it.
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Accusations without proof taste like sour grapes. And if the girls ARE pre-pubescent isn't this a message to the gymnastic selection team? Gymnasts performing those events should be pre-pubescents. As a female ages the bones are denser, less flexible. Many of the other teams gymnasts take anti-growth hormones to delay the on set of normal maturation. I'm with China on this one. Gymnastics is OK for kids. Not normal for women.
I did gymnastics as a hobby, as a post pubescent. Result? Two C-Sections because my muscles were too tight to allow freedom of movement in the womb for the foetuses.
Perhaps like the, for me at least, unmemorable sport the Americans keep winning, female gymnastics needs to be wiped off the Olympic Schedule. It will always look good. Lot's of people will always look at little girls performing unbelievable contortions. But it shouldn't be at the Olympics. The essence of the original olympic spirit was championship, not perversion.
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I have been talking to some of my Chinese mates and they too agree that the girls are not 16 - definitely younger. They also tell me that the gymnasts start training VERY early - 3 or 4 years old, and do not, in general, attend school, but spend all day training. From an early age they are also given anti-growth hormones, and the training is pretty severe. The coaches are not kind, loving people according to my mates.
I've had a couple of national level athletes in my classes. They NEVER come to class, and if they hand in a paper the English is word perfect - even if the subject is totally unrelated to the topic required! ahahahahah I fail them - but don't ask questions about those ones afterwards.
And we cannot convince ourselves that human beings will not use every means at their disposal to gain glory and gold (of any variety!) for themselves and their countries.
Olympic drug cheats still ahead of the cops
Bill Dwyre
August 1, 2008
We are days away from the opening of yet another Olympic spectacle, the Beijing Games, and with arenas ready and athletes poised, there seems to be only one missing element.
A gold medal category for best pharmacist.
It's not that the China Olympics are expected to be any more performance-enhanced than their predecessors. Just that the performance-enhancers are being chased harder now.
Jacques Rogge, the Belgian who is president of the International Olympic Committee, said he expected an increase in drug positives from the 26 at the Athens Games to about 40 in Beijing. His cops, WADA (World Anti-Doping Agency) are on the case.
It happens - and not just in gymnastics to change body structure/chemistry.
We can agree that a certain percentage of athletes in every sport will take this road, based on past experience, so it isn't actual mudslinging. What we can't do, until the tests are done is to say 'X used drugs".
But to clear the whole sporting system of drugs is an enormous ask.
The bio-chemists, bio-engineers etc will be working for new and less detectable ways of artificially enhancing performance for many years to come.
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...female gymnastics needs to be wiped off the Olympic Schedule. It will always look good. Lot's of people will always look at little girls performing unbelievable contortions. But it shouldn't be at the Olympics. The essence of the original olympic spirit was championship, not perversion...
I must call BS on this point. No doubt there are some people who fall into such a class and category. Most, in my experience, the vast majority, do not. We admire the immense skill required,and the beauty of its expression.
Frankly, I don't understand why the age of the athletes matters. They begin training in every country at fragile ages, and do not experience 'normal' childhoods anywhere. I'd let 'em get the medals and go on with life as soon as they can.
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Frankly, I don't understand why the age of the athletes matters. They begin training in every country at fragile ages, and do not experience 'normal' childhoods anywhere. I'd let 'em get the medals and go on with life as soon as they can.
At what cost? Sport isn't everything. And how do you suggest they get on with life as soon as possible. Exploitation of children isn't the answer to anything. It just brings in another set of questions.
In Australia, God bless it's soil, if a kid wants to do handturns they ruddy well do them. And get encouraged. If they don't want to do them no one gives a kookaburra. It's a child's right to CHOICE
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The only things that matter about the age: 1) the Olympic Committee has a lower age limit - are there competitors out there who are cheating by falsifying their ages.
2) If we decide age is not relevant to ability, is it fair to take children at younger and younger ages and subject them to intensive training to gain medals? Not a lot of free will in this process.
3) Life afterwards for athletes is often not that good - no other marketable skills (some with little/no education) and maybe with bodies damaged beyond what is reparable. I have a friend who trained as a gymnast from about 10/11 years old and continued until she finished uni. Even now, 10 years later, her tendons and ligaments are so stretched she has continuing problems. She can still do a mean straight drop down splits though! ahahahahah
This is being recognised as a problem elsewhere - see "Dying for a medal" 1984, and "Dying to Win" 1994.
Hidden behind the limelight often associated with womenÃs gymnastics there is a villain. This villain has destroyed the lives of many children aspiring to be gymnasts and in recent years has gained an increased amount of notoriety. It can be found deep within the hearts and souls of aspiring Olympic champions. The villain comes in two forms: anorexia nervosa and bulimia nervosa. The issue is not whether or not eating disorders exist in the world of gymnastics, but what causes gymnasts to develop them and what is being done to help those gymnasts that are plagued with eating disorders. After learning the tragic accounts from many gymnasts describing how their coaches emotionally abuse them, it has become evident to me that coaches cause eating disorders including anorexia nervosa and bulimia nervosa in young female gymnasts.
http://www.wright-house.com/ac/papers97/JohnsonE-ac1.html (http://www.wright-house.com/ac/papers97/JohnsonE-ac1.html)
And this isn't just in China or the eastern bloc countries - serious gymnasts in the US, UK, Oz - wherever go through this as well.
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And we cannot convince ourselves that human beings will not use every means at their disposal to gain glory and gold (of any variety!) for themselves and their countries.
How many unsung heroes are there in this world? More than gold medal winners I think. Some might and DO use everything at their disposal to 'gain glory and gold' but the history books verify this is not so. Thank God.
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Sadly though, as the years go by, some of those history making achievements are 'outed' or confessed to be actually 'enhanced' performances.
An interesting read.
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/drugs/stories/top10.html (http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/drugs/stories/top10.html)
And I think just recently that another medallist confessed to using drugs without being caught. (IRIS) ahahahahah
And it's not new.
Thomas J. Hicks, an American born in England on 7 January 1875 won the Olympic marathon in 1904. He crossed the line behind a fellow American, Fred Lorz, whose concept of marathon-running extended to riding half the way in a car. But nor did Hicks compete without outside help. His trainer, Charles Lucas, pulled out a hypodermic and came to his aid as his runner began to struggle.
I therefore decided to inject him with a milligram of sulphate of strychnine and to make him drink a large glass brimming with brandy. He set off again as best he could [but] he needed another injection four miles from the end to give him a semblance of speed and to get him to the finish. [17]
I like brandy as a performance enhancing drug!!
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...At what cost? Sport isn't everything. And how do you suggest they get on with life as soon as possible. Exploitation of children isn't the answer to anything. It just brings in another set of questions.
In Australia, God bless it's soil, if a kid wants to do handturns they ruddy well do them. And get encouraged. If they don't want to do them no one gives a kookaburra. It's a child's right to CHOICE[/size]
The Australian kids who compete in the Olympics have about as much choice in the matter as any other kids in the world. SOMEBODY decides,not the kid, that they are going to devote the extraordinary time and money to prepare. The kid may think they made the decision but, like American high schoolers playing football, they are forced into the role by their elders, coaches, and media claptrap. If they don't start training when they are three or four, they have about zero chance of being 'gold' material. What three or four year old 'chooses' anything, let alone a 'career' as a gymnast?
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Then the Olympics is a false parameter of human acheivement. Sad, when it began at the dawn of the showcase of excellence.
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Australian kids have choice. (Unless they have my sister as their mother!)
My oldest son made a choice not to be a part of the Australian tennis team though he was seeded second. No one made him continue a hobby he loved dearly at the expense of what he loved best. Science! He followed his own dream. Sucessfully.
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Was he four?
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My considered opinion is that all "sports" that require judges to allot points, are dropped from the Olympics. That leaves the Highest, Fastest, and Strongest to compete.
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I thought the original Olympics were a religious festival which grew. The first day of the festival was devoted to sacrifices to the gods, as was the last day. afafafafaf afafafafaf afafafafaf
And the winners were awarded a branch of wild olive, although the winners from some states were given tax-free status, allowed to live free in special halls set aside for distinguished people, or given cash prizes.
There are a lot of parents out there who DON'T give their children the choices. Ballet mothers, football fathers. And there are programs out there to identify early potential in littlies and whether they want to or not - they child is in.
Most Olympic sports have selection processes that attempt to identify future champions and initiate specialized training---often before the prospect finishes elementary school. The lure of a college scholarship or a professional career can also motivate athletes (and their parents) to commit to specialized training regimens at an early age. The low probability of reaching these lofty goals does not appear to discourage many aspirants.
To be competitive at a high level requires training regimens for children that could be considered extreme even for adults. The ever-increasing requirements for success creates a constant pressure for athletes to train longer, harder, more intelligently, and, in some cases, at an earlier age. The unending efforts to outdo predecessors and outperform contemporaries are the nature of competitive sports. The necessary commitment and intensity of training raises concerns about the sensibility and safety of high-level athletics for any young person.
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Was he four?
At four he could have competed in the Gong fu try outs and won a place. He CHOSE his place in the world: it fascinates him.
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My considered opinion is that all "sports" that require judges to allot points, are dropped from the Olympics. That leaves the Highest, Fastest, and Strongest to compete.
agagagagag
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Was he four?
At four he could have competed in the Gong fu try outs and won a place. He CHOSE his place in the world: it fascinates him.
I am glad for him, and you. Perhaps he will win a Nobel Prize. MUCH better than a gold medal in Tennis.
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They choose to become Olympic Gymnasts, make no mistake about it. A child knows whether they like something or not, and some children will just flat out refuse to do gymnastics regardless of how much you want them to. Kids know what they like regardless of age. It's when they become older that they choose to remain in the sport.
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If it weren't for bought judges, the Chinese wouldn't have half the gold's they do; especially in gymnastics.
What a joke.
Which half? I've watched all the gymnastics thus far, what events do you think the Chinese should not have on gold in?
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I don't refute any of the golds, I refute the bronze that I believe Sacramone should have had in light of the knee fall on fault that her competitor had who was Chinese.
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Was that on vault? I don't think that was judging as much as it was the new rules. Falling carries a less severe penalty than the old scoring system. The scoring now seems to based purly on degree of difficulty and completing the elements. Very little artistic merit seems to show up.
I don't like this system because it takes most of the elegance away and it's ridiculous to fall and win medals but I wouldn't say that the judges seem corrupt.
The OP makes a strong statement about golds and for the most part it did not even seem close to me, especially the men. I'm very intrested in what golds he thinks the Chinese didn't deserve.
I have more trouble with Phelps' 200 butterfly win and that wasn't even judged.
The Chinese gold in gymnastics seem well won to me.
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She should have had 4 penalties, actually. Not all of which were counted.
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ok so the judges are corrupt.
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Judges don't have the luxury of instant replay or slow motion. They have to judge on the 'as seen' performance. Scratch your nose, make a note - and it's gone.
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The judges penalized the American girls more harshly than their Chinese counterparts.
In the words of Bela Karolyi "the Americans were ripped off".
See also: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/aug/18/olympics2008.olympicsgymnastics
They cheat, no doubt about it.
I guarantee you that if they played fair, they'd have no medals in gymnastics.
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Nastia's score correct, says beleaguered judge
Linda Pearce | August 20, 2008
A SCORING controversy has engulfed the Olympic gymnastics competition for the second consecutive Games, and this time a Sydney judge is caught in the maelstrom. Gymnastics Australia yesterday defended Helen Colagiuri, the experienced official criticised by Soviet great Valeri Liukin after his daughter, all-around champion Nastia Liukin, failed by the tiniest margin to win uneven bars gold.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/gymnastics/aussie-gymnastics-judge-comes-out-fighting/2008/08/19/1218911722757.html (http://www.theage.com.au/news/gymnastics/aussie-gymnastics-judge-comes-out-fighting/2008/08/19/1218911722757.html)
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bibibibibi
The 'people' in general have been ripped off by the Olympics for at least 20 years.
Whatever happened to sports for sports sake? When professionals got involved, it started to suck. With drugs and politics it completely sucked.
If 'people' stopped paying attention to things like the Olympics and more to local sports, it might be better.
Maybe an arts festival or something would do as good. Or a Science Fair.
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We were watching female basketball between Czech and Aussies. So at the end Czechs had to do some 4-pointer. And on display it was some 5-pointer which doesn't even exist in the world of basketball (I don't know the terminology but the commentators were like - someone obviously made a mistake because there is no such thing). Aussies were winning anyway so that extra point wouldn't do any good to Czechs but watching that makes me wonder how many *mistakes* have been actually made so far.
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Whatever. I just lost almost all my respect of the Chinese because of this.
They know those girls aren't 16 and still let them compete.
F'in Pathetic.
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The judges penalized the American girls more harshly than their Chinese counterparts.
In the words of Bela Karolyi "the Americans were ripped off".
See also: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/aug/18/olympics2008.olympicsgymnastics
They cheat, no doubt about it.
I guarantee you that if they played fair, they'd have no medals in gymnastics.
The link is a little different than bought judges.
Intresting guarantee. Do you mean the men's team too?
Whatever. I just lost almost all my respect of the Chinese because of this.
They know those girls aren't 16 and still let them compete.
All Chinese? Come on man, it's sport. If you're not cheating. you are not trying hard enough. All countries, all sports.
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I'm talking women only. My family has gymnastic ties (women's) so I'm used to seeing these routines.
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All Chinese? Come on man, it's sport. If you're not cheating. you are not trying hard enough. All countries, all sports.
Cheers, Still. agagagagag It's only cheating if you get caught. I'm a big sports fan and I love cheaters. Roberto Duran anyone?
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BTW I went to the welterweight boxing quarterfinals on Sunday. There was a match between Korea and the US. The American sat on his heels for two rounds and finally the Korean opened up. The Korean won most of the key exchanges and won 11-9. Deservedly so. The Americans in the audience behaved terribly, booing the guy who made the fight. At the concession all I heard was Americans whining about the decision.
I am SO sick of hearing people complain about the scoring in the games. Nothing more annoying than a sore loser.
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I am SO sick of hearing people complain about the scoring in the games. Nothing more annoying than a sore loser.
Amen.. agagagagag agagagagag
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One thing i don't like is the sort of free agency thing going on.
The 'strongest man in the world'. Super heavyweight weight lifting champ for Germany but last Olympics competed for Austria. He had a fight with the Austrian Olympic committee so moved and became a citizen of Germany.
Americans fast-tracked citizenship to compete for Russian basketball.
Many countries are doing this including most if not all 'Westerrn countries'
When one of these atheletes win and then runs around with a flag, it really seems ..... off.
This seems like organized cheating to me. I prefer the pure type of cheating, like throwing an elbow the ref can't see kind of thing.
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If the athletes were not allowed to run a victory lap with their countries' flags, if their sundry flags were not raised, if their respective anthems were not played, would that make a difference?
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Run with your flag - that's great but if you get citizenship soley to compete in the olympics is it really your flag?
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Now that, my friend, is a good question. Ask Ben Johnson, who went from pride of Canada to shame of Jamaica in less time than it takes to pee in a cup. (And the American they gave his gold to wasn't clean either, but that's another story)
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I am SO sick of hearing people complain about the scoring in the games. Nothing more annoying than a sore loser.
Right. I'm pissed about a bronze.
The reason I brought it up was because I believe the judges need to be more competetant. Competition after competition, we've seen judges miss HUGE deductions and points.
Boxing. Gymnastics. Baseball. Take your pick and you'll find judging which hasn't been up to par whether my country was in it or not.
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He Kexin is being investigated under allegations she is under age. Wow...must have taken some great detective work to figure that one out. bibibibibi
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Here's "the proof" that she was indeed underage. A Chinese hacker found out:http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/olympics/article4578241.ece
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Yes, but Chinese and other Asian countries date the age from conception not actual birth which give everyone almost a 1 year higher age when compared with Western ages.
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Hey decurso; the Chinese are now under investigation for falsifying the ages of all three gymnasts. They are going to lose all their gold medals--as they should.
The US will receive them--as they should have in the first place.
<More expunged here. Sheesh. bibibibibi -R >
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Like I said-it's only cheating if you get caught. They got caught. Nice try though.
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Except so far it looks like they are getting away with it. After a 12 hour investigation - surprise!! all are 16. I posted some quotes from a news article in the gold rush thread.
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Yup...hats off to them too. The IOC has found no wrong doing. The entire world knows these girls are underage...and I gotta tip my my hat to China for pulling off such a blatant fraud on the world stage. World class cheating deserves gold in my opinion.
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I wonder how much Roggue and co. got paid to be quiet. mmmmmmmmmm
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And people wonder why I am down on the Olympics.
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Seriously what can the IOC do? They have Chinese passports with their age shown as 16. Apart form finding the passports fraudulent, there is nothing they can do. Can't go messing with legit passports.
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Seriously what can the IOC do? They have Chinese passports with their age shown as 16. Apart form finding the passports fraudulent, there is nothing they can do. Can't go messing with legit passports.
YOU Walk right up to the honcho, show him the registration papers from past events showing their ages then, and their ages now, point out the discrepancy, and ask what's going on. Then call them a bunch of lying weasels and take their medals.
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Seriously what can the IOC do? They have Chinese passports with their age shown as 16. Apart form finding the passports fraudulent, there is nothing they can do. Can't go messing with legit passports.
YOU Walk right up to the honcho, show him the registration papers from past events showing their ages then, and their ages now, point out the discrepancy, and ask what's going on. Then call them a bunch of lying weasels and take their medals.
Well yeah they can do that. But what is more convincing, papers from a gymnastic event (oh that was just a simple error!) and a passport?
Cheating stinks. I'm not for it, but the IOC don't have no say over stuff like official documents.
Cheating using official documents (ie. government sanctioned cheating) sucks more. llllllllll
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Is anyone planning to bring this up in public in China? Like with your students in a classroom?
My Chinese friend said she wasn't aware of any age rules for the sport. Also said Chinese media hasn't said anything about it, that she's aware of.
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Every class we have discussed the Olympics in has had it brought up - and the students ALL think they are under age. So maybe the 'party' media is not discussing it - but definitely it's out there.
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I'm curious to know what your students think about it. Do they think it's not a problem? Are they pleased that the Chinese gov't pulled one over on the rest of the world? Are they ashamed of their gov't? More...
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Their basic reaction was to make a bit of a joke of it. but with a wry grin about the possibility of faking documents etc. NOT stated out loud - although Chinese friends have told me how exceptionally simple it would have been for the team managers to do that.
i wonder if they are all brand new passports, or have they been stamped at other competitions. ahahahahah
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My students swear they were all 16 and it's just because Chinese people look young to Westerners. bibibibibi
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My dear Chinese buddy thinks the same thing!
Him: Well how old do you think I am?
Me: 23
Him: That's only because you know how old I am. Otherwise you wouldn't know. See it's the same as the gymnasts!
His English is good enough to know that makes no sense.
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The verdict??
Chinese Olympic gymnasts 'not underage'
Posted Thu Oct 2, 2008 9:11am AEST
Chinese female gymnasts who competed at this year's Beijing Olympics were not underage, the sport's governing body said after investigating claims the Games hosts fielded ineligible athletes.
The International Gymnastics Federation (FIG) had asked the Chinese federation to submit documents proving the birth dates of five members of the gold-winning team - He Kexin, Jiang Yuyuan, Li Shanshan, Deng Linlin and Yang Yilin.
The International Olympic Committee (IOC) had specifically asked the FIG to investigate double Olympic gold-medallist He, who was registered as 16 although online media reports suggested she may have been 14.
Gymnasts must turn 16 in the year of an Olympics to take part.
"Originals of official documents received from the Chinese Gymnastics Association, specifically passports, identity cards and family booklets or 'Household Registers', confirm the ages of the athletes," the FIG said in a statement.
"The FIG has shared its conclusions with the International Olympic Committee, which originally requested the inquiry. It is considered that the case is now concluded."
Chinese coaches and gymnasts had repeatedly denied the accusations of lying about age.
China collected a total of nine of the 14 gold medals up for grabs in the artistic gymnastics.
The FIG added it would investigate the ages of two members of the Chinese women's team that won bronze at the 2000 Sydney Olympics, Dong Fangxiao and Yang Yun.
"The FIG does not consider the explanations and evidence provided to date in regards to these athletes as satisfactory," it said.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/02/2379921.htm
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"Originals of official documents received from the Chinese Gymnastics Association, specifically passports, identity cards and family booklets or 'Household Registers', confirm the ages of the athletes," the FIG said in a statement.
Sorry, I'm still not buying it. Any official, either corrupt or under orders from someone higher up, can make these documents say whatever date is convenient. How about dental records showing the absence of baby teeth? Or permanent teeth growing in age appropriately?
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Ah well. Nadia was only 14. They changed the rules later.
Since athletes in this sort of sport are often trained starting in kindergarten, I think we should dump all the age requirements. Let them win a gold medal at age 5 and then they can go back to school and have a normal childhood.
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The FIG added it would investigate the ages of two members of the Chinese women's team that won bronze at the 2000 Sydney Olympics, Dong Fangxiao and Yang Yun.
Were these ones also in teh current team?? That could be interesting.