Why I love Chinese women...

...because they're not Chinese men.

One summer camp a few years ago I was teaching a group of high school aged kids, 15 - 19 y.o. and I was having a great time with them. Took some of them hiking, did some sightseeing with a couple of them, etc.

Last few days of the camp coincided with my birthday and my boss wanted to take me and the other teachers to KTV, which would be nice for me and double as a teacher party, and that's cool. A couple of the kids in my fun class, the one's I'd taken hiking and whatnot, they wanted to come to my KTV party and after talking to my boss, she agreed that the whole class could come, and that was very generous of her.

I announced the KTV party to the whole class and said details about the exact time and directions would be coming when I found out. Later that day, started getting a bad vibe from some of the kids. Next day I told them the details because it was a day after the camp finished, but most of them would still be there for a kind of free, do as you like day. Seemed like only the two girls who'd initially wanted to go to the KTV party were interested in the details. "Fine with me," I thought. "Come if you like, or whatever," I figured.

Next day was the KTV party and I got a call from the youngest girl in the class. Very tough
to figure out what she was trying to tell me, not because of the language, but she was obviously confused about what she was saying. Something about the oldest student, a boy named Jerry (can't recall his actual English name), whose English was excellent, relaying a message to her.

Me: "Why don't you put Jerry on the phone?"
Girl student: "He can't."
Me: "Why not? Isn't he right there?"
Girl student: "Yes, but he says he can't."
Me: "Ok, whatever, what are you trying to tell me?"
Girl student: "Jerry wants to invite you to a KTV party with the class in Haizhu square today?"
Me: "Uhhhh, you know I'm already having a KTV party in Tian He. You and Shelly said you were coming."
Girl student: "I know, but we can't. Jerry says we're having a KTV for you in Haizhu."
Me: "Okay, if ya'll want to do that, I'll come. What time?"
Girl student: "Jerry wants to know what time your other party is scheduled for."

At this point, I know something isn't right. I already told them what time and if they were having a party they would have already set the time, likely for prior to 5 PM if I know my Chinese students who want to take teachers to KTV, because after 5 it's much more expensive.

Me: "Why does he want to know my time?"

I hear some Cantonese haggling through the phone. The girl's voice is distressed.

Girl student: "He wants to schedule his party for the same time as yours."

Now it's all coming together. Jerry is trying to sabotage my KTV party by saying he's having one for me that will never happen.

Me: "Christy, do you know what's going on here?"
Girl student: "No."
Me: "Okay, I do. Just tell Jerry my party is already scheduled and if he is going to have another then send me a message with the details and I'll see if I can make it. 'Bye."

After talking to a few of the girls in the class, all I could figure out was that some of the students were offended that I'd invited them to my KTV party *after* inviting only two of the girls first. And yes, Jerry the sublime jerkwad was trying to sabotage my party with his little tale about giving me another KTV party.

In all my previous years, I had never imagined that people could be so petty about soemthing so small. I confronted Jerry about it when he got back to school and it was a disgusting and repulsive display of passive aggressive mendaciousness. I was put off just standing near him. That he'd used the youngest and sweetest girl in the class to do his dirty work infuriated me, so I just walked away from him. I still remember his disgusting face of self-satisfying lies. He spoke in such a manner like one who is redressing wrongs with righteous indignation. It was shocking.

FAST FORWARD to the present.

A typical (insecure) Chinese male I work with wanted some help with something small, and I was glad to do it. He's a good guy and had helped me with some skits I'd presented. As is typical in my experience here, he felt he had to pay me back for this miniscule favor I'd done him, so I had to go along with him and a couple of his friends to the worst tourist attraction I've ever been to in China. There are worse things, I didn't complain, done and done.

Then he leaves the school where we work and I don't hear from him for about two months until he calls me up for some football. Other stuff had gone on in the meantime and I'd decided I didn't need a list of acquaintances who just kept in touch for favors, but didn't seem to do whatever it is that makes me feel happy from time to time. Told him, "Hey, haven't heard from you in a while, you've moved onto other things, so good luck to you, but not interested."

A month later he rings me again, wants to meet up. It's obvious he's trying to save face, so I'm like, "Okay, I'm taking some people hiking Saturday morning, why don't you join us?"

Late Friday evening he contacts me. He's got to go to traffic court Saturday morning, at exactly the same time as our hiking, and he wants me to change to Sunday. There are already 10 other people who've confirmed to go 9AM Saturday (7 showed up) and 10 PM Friday is too late to change. As far as I can tell, he's trying to sabotage the hiking and this will somehow restore his dignity, or whatever.

With a few exceptions, I simply can't relate to the mainland Chinese males born between 1944 and 1985. I avoid them like the plague and every time I don't, except maybe once in two years, I regret it.

What do they think of themselves, these disparaging remarks deleted?

Hell of a story GW. Later I'll write something more intelligent, but for now all I can state is the obvious:

it's the way things have worked here for the last 100 centuries, and it'll take that much more to change

Wow I really don't see much of a connection between these guys and your conclusion of

'With a few exceptions, I simply can't relate to the mainland Chinese males born between 1944 and 1985. I avoid them like the plague and every time I don't, except maybe once in two years, I regret it.

What do they think of themselves, these disparaging remarks deleted?'

... and especially not the laowai comics cartoon which speaks to a very different sort of creature again.  

I mean, I myself have problems getting along with Chinese men, but the second example just seems like flaky.

The first: teenagers?  meh?

If you are considering this as a piece of prose then you really need to flesh out the characters/scenes.

I'm married to one of those disparaging remarks deleted As are a couple of members here.

You know, if I posted something similar about Chinese women I'd have half the members on this forum coming out of the woodwork to tell me how wrong I was, and probably throwing something in there about ugly fat horrible Western women jealous they can't get a foreign man.

You know what? On second thought. No. If you exchanged "Chinese men" for men of any other nationality and added on a bunch of negative stereotypical adjectives, you'd be eviscerated, and rightly so. Black men? Jewish men? Latino men? American men? It isn't ok to talk shit about Chinese men just because we're in China and you happen to be cynical about a certain kind of Chinese man you've come across.

We have Chinese members. Chinese-American members. Members with Chinese husbands, fathers, brothers, uncles, cousins and friends. If you want to talk about how you have problems making friends with Chinese men and why that might be, then fine. Want to call them names? Not on.

TLD, I put this in the BS Wrestling Pit because I thought it was the place where it would be tolerated and least offensive.

For me, part of the purpose of the discussion forum is to talk things out. What I wrote about is something that has been difficult for me to deal with since I got here. I can not pretend not to have a subjective viewpoint and I admit that generalizing the way I did is likely to be offensive.

I hope you will reconsider your editing of my post and allow the discussion to go on. It is better to have an outlet and figure out the problem than to be locked up with it alone.

You can discuss the abstract of why it is hard for you to relate to Chinese men all you want but no, even in the BS pit, you are not allowed to just say whatever you want regardless of how offensive it might be. That last remark that I edited crossed the line GZ. Again, try rewriting that sentence and replacing Chinese with any other group, and replacing those adjectives with other adjectives stereotypical to that group. I won't even write out an example sentence because it would be frankly disgusting.

I mean no, you are not actually going to argue here that it is ok to call Chinese men impotent. That's not a legit discussion we're going to have.

TLD posted while I was writing this, and I agree with her.  However, here is my two cents worth as well.

The Wrestling Pit still doesn't exonerate putting everyone under the same blanket and then tarring and feathering them.    Excessive use of negative adjectives isn't required.

Writing an article about an example of some of the Chinese men you have met was good. Without having the adjectives at the end of the article you would allow an unbiased discussion of this topic based upon their experiences.  You could have used a comment such as: 'have you run into people like this before?'.

Honestly, minus the constant spitting and peeing everywhere...the men are not much different from the women. Yes, I am generalizing quite broadly but almost every negative behavior I've seen from men here I've also seen from women. The men have nothing on the women for petty bullshit...in any country I have lived in. We put up with it though...since they are women and most of us like women.

Also, I think you are being a bit emo about both those instances. Why not simply tell Jerry you would not attend and leave it there. The girls can make their own decisions. Is it such a big deal if the girls didn't choose the way you wanted them to? You probably embarrassed yourself confronting him about it too, I hope it was done out of earshot of others. As to the other story, you could have continued telling that guy you didn't want to meet but you chose not to...then got emo because he flaked. I just don't get it. You said he was trying to sabotage your hiking trip? Are you for real? Why take this stuff so seriously?

I am sure there is a nicer way to say this but...man up buttercup.

I am sure there is a nicer way to say this but...man up buttercup.

"Buttercup", really?  I, honestly, don't think GZ was saying he couldn't take it but rather was annoyed by the pettiness.  As one who has violated etiquette here myself, I assume the deleted expletive had no place on the list, but I would hate to see the topic GZ brings up prohibited. I think there's value in talking these things out.

I don't make disparaging comments about the Chinese at the workplace or with Chinese, (unless they initiate a complaint about their own countrymen), so I vent here. Sometimes too much, but that's to bring out the opinions of more experienced ex-pats.  I got the feeling that was what GZ may have wanted.

 
 

but I would hate to see the topic GZ brings up prohibited

@ A-Train  The topic was not the problem, and topics like that are fine to discuss on the saloon.  We just removed some derogatory adjectives which crossed the line.

... to bring out the opinions of more experienced ex-pats.  I got the feeling that was what GZ may have wanted.

True 

If the intent was to ban this topic, I would have pulled the post altogether. Instead, I deleted a sentence that crossed the line into derogatory remarks about a group of people -- the Chinese.

We are in China and we do not have to like everything about this country or even about the people and the culture, but namecalling is not acceptable.

There was a thread not so long ago, here http://raoulschinasaloon.com/index.php?topic=7226.0 , that talked about some of the difficulties foreign men seem to have with Chinese men. Managed to do it without resorting to namecalling either.

GZ, to seriously respond to your topic, I don't know what kind of guys you've tried to get to know besides these two, but I tend to agree with Fozz's assessment. The first guy was a teenager -- they're not known for their kind and generous natures, and it sounds like there was a ton of miscommunication there anyhow. You, as the adult, should have just said, KTV part A is being thrown by Boss. You guys can either come, or not. Good day. Again, teenagers, and it sounds like the girls were just as in on the plan, whatever that was, as he was.

Second guy? Being flaky. Why on earth would he want to sabotage your hiking plans? Again, all you had to say was sorry, other people are going hiking with us and the date is set. Come or not.

To choose these two examples, out of all the the questionable behavior that you see sometimes in China, to support your thesis about Chinese men, well it strikes me that you haven't actually had a lot of direct experience with them. It sounds like you don't speak Chinese, so right there you're limiting yourself to contact with people who speak English well enough to communicate, so you could just as easily generalize about English speaking Chinese people as you could about Chinenese men.

Ask yourself why you're so tolerant of the women (who are surely not perfect either) and so critical of the guys. It is true that you will run into a certain kind of nationalist who is hostile towards foreigners, and those people tend to be men, but they're also not even a small majority of all Chinese people.

In the other thread I talked about hanging out with artists and musicians, and it is true that in general, those are the types of Chinese people whose company I enjoy more, but the rest of them aren't bad people. We have a physics teacher at my school who is roughly my dad's age and he is one of the kindest, funniest, smartest people I have ever met. Our downstairs neighbor is a very normal Chinese father with a kid and a wife and a mother in law, but he's always polite and ready with a good morning and a smile, very neighborly. If we want to go into deeper relationships, I have a Chinese "little brother,"(he's about 2 years younger than me) who is the government appointed boss of a road construction team, a big shot, but I knew him when he was just a minion himself, 10 years ago, and he laughs at himself all the time, has a wicked sense of humor, is down to earth, and would totally take a bullet for you.. He was just about the unlikeliest person to ever befriend a bunch of foreigners but his best friend among that little group of friends I had is a foreign guy. In fact, most of the close Chinese guy friends I have also have male foreign friends. You're hanging around the wrong kinds of people, or else you're assuming motives that simply aren't there and shooting people down before you even give them a chance.

There are of course cultural issues that we don't like about Chinese people. I don't like sa-jiao in the women. I'm not going to go calling them names though because they've been taught culturally that it is acceptable to sa-jiao and anyhow not all of them do it and plenty of them hate it as much as I do. I hate the drinking/smoking culture among the men, but that is really easy to avoid if you know how, and accept that people like the guy depicted in that comic are just assholes. There are foreign assholes and Chinese assholes, but no one group of people is comprised entirely of assholes either. That is simply impossible.

Seems to me that the representatives of the male Chinese population that the OP has a problem with are the ones suffering from 'Little Emperor Syndrome". An accepted cultural term in China, from what I understand. This is not applicable to all Chinese men, only to some.

Do remember that we're talking about a population of 1.5 billion.  That's a very big group to try to use "all" when generalizing behavior and attitudes.

Honestly, minus the constant spitting and peeing everywhere...the men are not much different from the women.

I've seen them spitting everywhere, but haven't yet seen the women peeing everywhere.

I'm married to one of those disparaging remarks deleted As are a couple of members here.

Hmmmm....

I've seen them spitting everywhere, but haven't yet seen the women peeing everywhere.

You have not been to Henan.

Come to Henan.