Raoul's China Saloon (V5.0) Beta
The Bar Room => The BS-Wrestling Pit => Topic started by: Raoul F. Duke on March 05, 2009, 09:33:44 PM
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I'm curious...I'd like to put some numbers on the Great Language Debate. How do you feel about this issue?
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In sane and reasonable doses it's ok. Those who swear a lot prove their lack of ability in any language. Vulgarity is the last refuge of the incompetent.
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I can say bad words with the best of them - but only when I am extremely angry, upset or well over the limit. jjjjjjjjjj :snoopytrage:
If I am calm enough or sober enough to write or read posts then the level of acceptability of swearing/obscenities hasn't been reached for me. ahahahahah ahahahahah
And if we have plenty of other ways to make our feelings known - why offend people who do object?
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The use of swearwords appropriately is OK, but it can be overdone!
Notice how restrained and refined my post is? ahahahahah
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Peope curse all the time. In songs, on TV, on the street. It takes more than some so-called offensive words to get any indgignation out of me. Curse away, I for one am not bothered about it.
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cussin up a blue streak is one of my favourite pastimes, but there is a time and a place. Sometimes it can definately be overdone, but in general it does not bother me.
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I'm a firm believer that there is no such thing as bad words, just intentions. I feel that sometimes swear words are the most suitable words for describing an emotion or situation, but i'm all for showing some respect.
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I can join in some pretty strong language when the occasion arises. I do try and keep my language under control, a personal point for me to grapple with. There is some language that I don't think should be ever used, but each to his/her own.
I think perhaps, as the boss mentioned, that if you are going to use swearing in a post to express yourself, warn the readers in the post topic, just a general curtesy to those who are bothered by it bfbfbfbfbf
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I can and have used swear words, however I find they can also be objectionable. A little occasionally is ok but in small doses. yidiar la de
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I can find them offensive at times...
but I voted that it doesn't bother me.
thosem type words do tend to breed more though.
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I don't object to it and do cuss like a sailor when appropriate... however I don't particularly endorse its gratuitous use! cussing for the sake of cussing seems pointless to me and takes away from the intensity of said cuss words when used appropriately.
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a 3rd option along the lines of "just like everything else, it's OK when not overdone" might win out.
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If I were asked to vote....which we have been....I'd have to say that I can't, because I fall in the middle of the two choices offered.
I don't want to see it all the time. But there are times/places/situations when it helps to express my emotions/lets me vent.
Remember wwwwwwwwww my signature is "Moderation...." ahahahahah
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Vulgarity is the last refuge of the incompetent.
I disagree. Imposing linguistic cast systems is the last refuge of people who feel the need to dictate their morality on others by imposing limitations upon one's choice of language. Given the history behind how certain words became taboo there are two culprits:
The French
and
Religious fundamentalism.
If we are to dictate what is "obscene," based on the curmudgeons then we might as well don Burkas and take off our shoes before we are labeled infidels and promptly "dealt" with.
Living in a nation where I have witnessed the value of freedom of speech by the absence of great portions of it: there are simple things people can do without imposing their morality on others via proxy censorship: ignore and move along.
This isn't exactly a public place like a park, so there is an owner and a set of rules, but I have yet to see this forum degenerate into an abyss of little more than colorful metaphors that get certain sectors of the place's panties in knots. I emphasize the word panties. It's a hunch.
The reason why I like the saloon and find myself rarely glancing at the cafe is because of a diversity of opinion and a freedom to use language. It would be a downright shame for the uptight nature of a few to dictate the civil expression of a whole. It's much like throwing the bathwater out with the baby.
So, there are moderators here. I think they've done a fine job. No ass kissing. Just my honest opinion. Let that group call the shots as they see fit, since this is their forum. I, for one think things have been fine. It would be a shame that a minority of people who are offended by a word or two now and then get to set the course for what is probably the definitive teaching forum dedicated to teaching China: on the internet.
I'd like to suggest an "ignore" function. Perhaps that would aid the sensitive individuals in being able to empower themselves to harmonize their own version of the saloon, while still enjoying the saloon. It would allow others who are not so sensitive to a few colorful words to enjoy unfettered opinions, observations and humor now and again*.
*I guess that a few overly sensitive individuals object to the use of the words, "fuck," and "shit." I cannot recall any diatribes on the public forums that would lead me to believe there were curse-happy manifestos, but that's just me.
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Vulgarity is the last refuge of the incompetent.
I disagree. Imposing linguistic cast systems is the last refuge of people who feel the need to dictate their morality on others by imposing limitations upon one's choice of language. Given the history behind how certain words became taboo there are two culprits:
The French
and
Religious fundamentalism.
If we are to dictate what is "obscene," based on the curmudgeons then we might as well don Burkas and take off our shoes before we are labeled infidels and promptly "dealt" with.
Living in a nation where I have witnessed the value of freedom of speech by the absence of great portions of it: there are simple things people can do without imposing their morality on others via proxy censorship: ignore and move along.
This isn't exactly a public place like a park, so there is an owner and a set of rules, but I have yet to see this forum degenerate into an abyss of little more than colorful metaphors that get certain sectors of the place's panties in knots. I emphasize the word panties. It's a hunch.
The reason why I like the saloon and find myself rarely glancing at the cafe is because of a diversity of opinion and a freedom to use language. It would be a downright shame for the uptight nature of a few to dictate the civil expression of a whole. It's much like throwing the bathwater out with the baby.
So, there are moderators here. I think they've done a fine job. No ass kissing. Just my honest opinion. Let that group call the shots as they see fit, since this is their forum. I, for one think things have been fine. It would be a shame that a minority of people who are offended by a word or two now and then get to set the course for what is probably the definitive teaching forum dedicated to teaching China: on the internet.
I'd like to suggest an "ignore" function. Perhaps that would aid the sensitive individuals in being able to empower themselves to harmonize their own version of the saloon, while still enjoying the saloon. It would allow others who are not so sensitive to a few colorful words to enjoy unfettered opinions, observations and humor now and again*.
*I guess that a few overly sensitive individuals object to the use of the words, "fuck," and "shit." I cannot recall any diatribes on the public forums that would lead me to believe there were curse-happy manifestos, but that's just me.
I will herein amend my post to read "linguistically or verbally challenged or incompetent"
Cussing doesn't bother me just how I feel. asasasasas :lickass:
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I will herein amend my post to read "linguistically or verbally challenged or incompetent"
Cussing doesn't bother me just how I feel. asasasasas :lickass:
No worries, man. Scotch is on me.
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This is why I love this F$%^ing place afafafafaf we can disagree amicably and not too many people get their knickers in a knot. Especially not me since I ain't wearin any. cbcbcbcbcb
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I don't mind cussing at all. I don't swear in writing that often, probably because it was always sort of ingrained in me not to. I swear quite a bit in real life.
I understand why some sites, particularly those that subsist on advertising, don't allow swearing. I think that there's also the idea that too much swearing might appear unprofessional, which makes some forums set stricter rules. I'm not offended by swearing in the least, but it isn't appropriate in some settings.
That said, I don't think the swearing here is either excessive or gratuitous.
Some sites do allow for a swear filter to be turned on/off by the individual, rather than the admin of the forum as a whole. Is that possible with the format here?
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I'm not in favour of any kind of censorship. If you don't like something, that's ok, don't like it, but don't tell me how I should feel about your reaction to something, please!
I understand that some people have a different opinion and I support their right to do so, but censorship is a really slippery slope, in my opinion, and once started down it its real hard to stop.
The main issue I see here is that this is not a public site, it is private and it is owned by someone and at the end of the day we agree to play by the rules set down or take our toys and play somewhere else.
I say celebrate the diversity - and if you don't like the language don't read it.
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I voted but this thread is what I thought it would turn out to be - another excuse for arguments bibibibibi Thank you for new guidelines. It is only fair if people are warned about some strong language used in threads.
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If the 'cuss' words didn't have deeper meanings we wouldn't use them. If these words DIDN'T have a history and an original intent to be offensive, there would be no issue. To say they are merely words or random collections of letters is to negate the power of language - what we are supposed to be teaching every day. ahahahahah ahahahahah
What we are looking at isn't so much censorship, but an agreed set of norms for a community. Any community establishes these norms. Your own homes will have actions and ideas that are censored - no spitting on the floor, don't discuss the war eg. Being part of a community implies that we do care about others reactions to things.
Here we have already established a few 'no go' areas of discussion because we have people who have diametrically opposing ideas and in promoting those ideas, can offend others. (NO DISSING VEGEMITE!) So if we already have areas (IDEAS and beliefs) where we do not want to offend others, why are we feeling censored by asking people not to use words that were INTENDED to be offensive?
And as pointed out - we can create many other ways of expressing feelings.
I can use every one of the words so far written (you left out a couple Spag - mostly to do with female anatomy... I wonder if that's why women get offended by them????? bibibibibi). But, if we are in control of our emotions enough to compose and correct our writing, then we are also capable of knowing that we may cause offence. Persisting in doing something that we know will cause offence then, by definition, becomes aggressive, and offence is intended. We are, in effect, saying "It's my right to say what I want. So stuff your prudish mind."
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Being part of a community implies that we do care about others reactions to things.
It'd also imply, possibly, that the terms of that community are defined. As in, we are a community built and intended for the purpose of distributing and discussing kiddi--, um, life in China... oh, wait, is that our community?
So if we already have areas (IDEAS and beliefs) where we do not want to offend others, why are we feeling censored by asking people not to use words that were INTENDED to be offensive?
Because we all, which is to say, me and my invisible friend, want to decide for ourselves if they are offensive. We wish for language, and other things, to be creative and generative, not (merely, even as they are necessarily) hidebound and conventional. Nancys arguing that these words are confrontational and divisive are, frankly, being confrontational and divisive! (More exactly, creating groups in or out of ascendance: those who are offended and have moral clout, and those who aren't offended and have enthusiasm, and others, unaffiliated and careless.)
However, if the community is one for the exchange of positive feeling and made as a safe, harmonious place for rest and recuperation, then it ought to be curse-less. Because smiles and rainbows create closer immediate ties than does jarring chest bumping.
And on the question of smiles, may I ask, if it smells like bqbqbqbqbq, looks like bqbqbqbqbq, tastes like bqbqbqbqbq, do we need to be reminded of bqbqbqbqbq? I urge a rethink on the laughably misnomered "smileys" policy. Smileys? Is this a smile to you: bqbqbqbqbq?
Dj Kalach Extreme, swearing like a school girl since 1964.
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I don't really care who swears but I do appreciate there are members here who do care. I don't want to see the Saloon get like Dave's where if you type in certain words, you get censored but I would hope that our posters can all respect each other.
It's not about your rights being taken away. It's about respect. If you know that it bothers some people here, why do it? I smoke. I don't smoke in someone's house if I know that it bothers them. I don't think my rights to smoke have been taken away.
Most of us here have gone to university. We were able to debate and express our views there without swearing afafafafaf
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So if we already have areas (IDEAS and beliefs) where we do not want to offend others, why are we feeling censored by asking people not to use words that were INTENDED to be offensive?
Because we all, which is to say, me and my invisible friend, want to decide for ourselves if they are offensive.
Agreed. But doesn't this imply that each of us wants to decide for him/herself what ideas and beliefs are also offensive/not offensive and therefore may choose to continue to bleat on about them, no matter what? And the rest of us merely have to not look, not take any notice? Or just be warned that LE is on her soapbox, yet again??
As a community, we would probably agree not to hawk, because some of us would find it offensive, even though the majority of people around us do not. But what we are saying here, is that some people can hawk, and it's their right to, even though it offends others. It is after all, a way of expressing bile. axaxaxaxax axaxaxaxax axaxaxaxax axaxaxaxax
(Sorry, sometimes I even make myself laugh!)
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Not a great poll Boss. It's not yes/no for everybody.
I swear in front of some people and not in front of others. I don't feel like my mother is trampling on my rights because she doesn't want me to swear.
For me it's simple. Cheeky (and others) don't like it. I like Cheeky (and others) and don't want her (them) to leave. So I will be careful with my language. Every once in awhile I will use a swear word and will be forgiven for it. I don't need any rules in place to know when I might be offending someone and my right to foul language is very low on my list of things to worry about.
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Because we all, which is to say, me and my invisible friend, want to decide for ourselves if they are offensive.
Agreed. But doesn't this imply that each of us wants to decide for him/herself what ideas and beliefs are also offensive/not offensive and therefore may choose to continue to bleat on about them, no matter what? And the rest of us merely have to not look, not take any notice? Or just be warned that LE is on her soapbox, yet again??
I really think the whole thing is not at all about what is and isn't offensive, but about who is and isn't in a group with "you".
Some groups are made by politeness and displays of kindness and concern for feeling; which is to say, some groups are focused on the people in the group and their relationships. For such groups, and leaders of such groups, management of behaviours that run counter to overall harmonious connections between persons is... plausible.
Other groups are founded on other things, like shared action and value systems maybe, and those groups can be more robust.
This particular community is in fact really very relationships oriented. There's a definite stated purpose, that of being a resource for the China-bound, and there's another purpose too, that of being a collection of kindreds who support and love each other. It's a bit weird, and group hugs can break out without warning, but it seems like a lot of the personnel like it that way.
Freaks.
So if everyone would just agree to love each other, support each other and be productive, we could all curse up a storm in sing song fashion and it wouldn't make a jot of difference to the one true love that is our life in unity.
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If the 'cuss' words didn't have deeper meanings we wouldn't use them. If these words DIDN'T have a history and an original intent to be offensive, there would be no issue.
This is totally untrue for many words, including, "fuck," which was a socially acceptable word. Research the history of it and you will find that it was a bunch of non-English speakers who dictated that it was a verbal pariah because of class structure. It stuck, and the rest is history. A lot of this "profanity" bolderdash comes from religious zealots who want to dictate their morality upon the public, and certain classes within society wanting to dictate their moral "norms" upon the working and poorer classes, the so-called, "unenlightened." In fact, the religious silliness that is used as a cultural bar, was often propagated by the rich minority - usually an aristocracy - upon the poorer classes.
Most cussing had relatively innocent origins and once the cultural enforcers - aristocrats, theological terrorists, foreign invaders, and so on - sank their claws into the language and raped it, things were never the same.
To say they are merely words or random collections of letters is to negate the power of language - what we are supposed to be teaching every day. ahahahahah ahahahahah
I don't think anyone is saying that. Inversely, the attributes of the words are given their power by the listener just as much as the user. There is context. That is what presents intent and gives greater meaning to any word.
I think the issue here is more, rather than less, a minority wanting to lay their morality upon a majority who do not share it. As a result, it is problematic because the majority who can get over the silliness of certain words and have the tolerance to see the message for the sum total of its words rather than linger on the very rare usage of what some might deem, "offensive" vocabulary, and thus miss the message because they are to attached to a moral high horse rather than grounded in reality.
With one exception that was dealt with very quickly, I haven't seen a plethora of racial epithets tossed around here. If such words were slung about with abandon, then I'd be able to see the cause for concern. The same would apply to profanity used in a hostile manner and the mods wanting it to be toned down because the impetus of this site was to provide what saps like Sperling clearly were incapable of doing: an informative, colorful, fun place to post regarding our lives in China, especially for those of us teaching our butts off.
I am making an assumption here, but if a vocal minority who cannot deal with the diversity and realities of the English language are upset, why should the majority have to walk on egg shells when the consensus is that things have not digressed into Raoul's Cuss-o-Rama? When societies bend to the vocal minority who demanded changes that actually trampled freedom of expression rather than protected, nurtured and encouraged it - well, heck, most of us can turn on the television or try to surf to youtube at the moment and see what happens when that becomes the norm. Stifling the raucous few* for the sake of grown adults incapable of ignoring words that are not personal attacks upon them nor their character: it's the same kind of fragile ego syndrome we have to contend with on the job, regarding China. Do we, as mature adults, need to police ourselves for the same thing on the saloon?
I present that as fuel for meditation.
What we are looking at isn't so much censorship, but an agreed set of norms for a community. Any community establishes these norms. Your own homes will have actions and ideas that are censored - no spitting on the floor, don't discuss the war eg. Being part of a community implies that we do care about others reactions to things.
Clearly, by voting alone, the community has spoken, and at this moment, they agree that there isn't an issue. So, I guess we've resolved the matter? As for respect towards the community, isn't being mature enough to ignore cussing by a minority of users an act of respect? "To each their own," you know what I mean?
Here we have already established a few 'no go' areas of discussion because we have people who have diametrically opposing ideas and in promoting those ideas, can offend others.
Positing this idea in a public forum - we need to remember this isn't a public forum like a park, but a public forum presented by a private entity. As such, they have final say and we have to follow it or hit the road. So, applying your quote in the context of a public space owned by the general public: where do you draw the line? Where do you draw the line when the sensitivity of a minority of people is given credence? I am of the opinion that the line is drawn when it infringes upon the individual's rights. No one is forcing them to read the words that offend them, however, their demands are forcing people to censor themselves. When the good natured gestures of fraternity are used to "harmonize" written speech, then it is not respect but a step that treads down a path that could easily lead to oppression on a large scale, or, in the case of something less dramatic, like a message board: a bland, uninteresting, sterile, counterproductive place... Just like the cafe kkkkkkkkkk
So if we already have areas (IDEAS and beliefs) where we do not want to offend others, why are we feeling censored by asking people not to use words that were INTENDED to be offensive?
Because the context of the words and how they are used is not offensive! Because we can skip what offends us and move on to what appeals to us without forcing others to mollycoddle us. Really.
And as pointed out - we can create many other ways of expressing feelings.
we can also let people be and ignore things. We can also look at the context of the usage and focus on the message as a whole in and of itself, rather than become myopic charlatans who focus on the individual parts, often removing the "offending" words from context.
Looking at the stats on the vote: could people not create ways of coping with very real, very valid, very creative words that might bother them, but clearly not the majority? Could they just grow up and learn to deal with it? Are they so selfish that they must force a majority to restrict themselves further, especially when this is a haven where we have the freedom to express ourselves in ways we cannot in our daily lives?
We're not talking trolling or liable or hate speech. We're talking about the occasional cuss word. We are not talking about cussing diatribes but the freedom to occasionally say, "fuck it."
What is being debated here, are a minority of individuals who are incapable of overlooking occasional cussing that is often not thrown around in the public forums with hostility towards fellow members, versus people who are not making personal insults or attacks with their sparse use of cussing, and their freedom to express themselves without fear of recrimination and oppression for the sake of a handful of people too small minded to overlook the words.
We are, in effect, saying "It's my right to say what I want. So stuff your prudish mind."
Or, in effect, we are saying, "boo hoo, I can't be mature enough to ignore a few words so I want the world to revolve around my fragile psyche. I want everyone to live by my moral compass and if they don't I'm going to throw a tantrum."
In life there are times when the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many, but this is not one of them. That's my take.
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Personally, I just love good cussin'. The more creatively disgusting, the more I relish it. Up until it's directed at someone in the Saloon itself..that's a different kettle of fish altogether. And I understand that many are offended by it so I try to curb my use. Sometimes I'm even successful. But it's hard to know how far you can go with this until you've gone too far.
I'd like to see a thread that contains nothing but the most vile and objectionable phrases, words, jokes and idioms we can come up with just to get it our of the systems of those who need the purge. The kind of thread that would make the dialogue in Deadwood look like a tea with the Queen. A sort of "red zone" of filth. It would help to keep the other threads and rooms more civil while providing hours of enjoyment.
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I think they call that the ladies lounge, A-Train
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I can't vote on this poll because neither is true for me.
Talking about the 'Holy Fuck' thread - this was a poor choice for a title because it tells us NOTHING about what is in the actual thread.
If you're really building up some steam I have no problems with a bit of venting but vulgarity for no reason is, IMHO, just lazy.
I don't like physical contact with people I don't know. I will tolerate it, but I don't like it. I would never force this on other people just because I liked it. I think we need to show some consideration for the others in our community, and keep the language restrained.
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I just really don't understand why people are offended by swearing. I understand that some people are and censor myself here accordingly (no point in offending people when I can express basically the same idea with milder language) but wonder why I have to.
Having said that, excessive swearing is pointless and takes a lot of the power out of the words. However I would say the same thing about anyone who says "cool" or "awesome" too much. I am pretty much in a permanent state of hostility and anger, so I swear a lot...but I would like to think it's not excessive.
Bottom line...it's just words. You know, I met a girl a few years back who couldn't abide the word "fart". The "f word", the 4 letter "c word"...no problem. Say "fart" and she would get really upset. What does that tell you?
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Having said that, excessive swearing is pointless and takes a lot of the power out of the words. However I would say the same thing about anyone who says "cool" or "awesome" too much.
I think we have our answer! To avoid concerns about censorship, and to appease the anti-fucker brigade, LET'S TAKE THE POWER OUT OF THE WORDS! Institute an excessive swearing regime now!!! Every post in every topic for any purpose should include at least one "fuck". Awards will NOT be given for creativity. Start desensitising today, people!
It'll be like surgery: a little pain now for a harmonious benefit later. We are the world.
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Damned bastards swearing in the saloon. We should kill all those fucking assholes. ahahahahah
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Talking about the 'Holy Fuck' thread - this was a poor choice for a title because it tells us NOTHING about what is in the actual thread.
As the author of that thread, let's provide context for the folks downstairs: that's a thread that's upstairs. It is not in the public forum. It is an appropriate title of the thread because it was the genuine feeling and words I used when referring to the subject of the thread, which was posted in one part of the forum that was devoted to a singular, particular subject. Its title was not gratuitous and mirrors exactly the content of the initial post. Taken into context it was absolutely not gratuitous and not at all used in an insulting, trolling, attacking manner.
Sorry to the folks downstairs about the vague nature of what I refer to; I think it's bad form to bring up discussions the general public won't be able to see, and I think it's doubly unfair because you're making a direct example of something they cannot see for themselves and thus form their own opinion after examination, though members can view the thread one day, upon earning barfly status).
concerning the actual topic on hand: the vote at the top of this thread pretty much says it all. A vocal minority cannot find it in themselves to simply ignore a few words that upset them. If we police ourselves for their sake, shouldn't they be able to police their morality from infringing upon the privileges of others by having the gumption and maturity to simply ignore the posters or the posts that seem to offend them? I do that all the time with the propaganda all over this fine country and still manage to enjoy a good chunk of my life here, in China. It's omnipresent, often offensive, and inescapable, but I don't feel the need to run up to Beijing and tell them to turn down the volume. I adapt, I survive and I thrive.
It's easier done than said, actually. Such a rarity.
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And there are members no longer posting in the Saloon because of that attitude. bibibibibi
I like the Saloon. I have been a member here for a long time. I like and respect Raoul and the other moderators.
However, the general tone of the forum has changed in the last few months. I can't say who, because it isn't any one specific person. However, many members no longer feel 'safe' to post any longer.
There is a general lack of respect of other members now, not just the ladies. I won't say there are any specific attacks, but yet the camaraderie is gone. Before if we made a mistake it was ignored or we got a 'laugh' pointing at us. Now it is different.
The bantering between George and Stil and Raoul and Eric was common among many other members. No longer.
Yes maybe I am offtopic here, but it fits with the general attitude being expressed on this thread. bibibibibi
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I think that if a close examination was taken, we would find that most of the swearing would be in the frivolous threads. Any personal cussin would have been jumped on very quickly...and rightly so!
This IS the Saloon, remember, and conversations usually reflect that. We occasionally have little brawls, but the Bartender drags out his baseball bat and things cool down. I don't feel that swearing has gotten any worse than it was in the Saloon MK1. It's just that there is no Robocop here.
Calmeth downeth, peoples. There are worse things happening in the world!
However, the general tone of the forum has changed in the last few months.
That's because we are growing, DS, and the membership has become more diverse. Shit, we even let Danish people join!! ahahahahah ahahahahah
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However, the general tone of the forum has changed in the last few months. I can't say who, because it isn't any one specific person.
I agree. Some more aggressive members are certainly impacting on the overall vibe. This is linked to an increase in aggression and vulgarity. Notice I don't say an increase in swearing - because swearing is not necessarily vulgar (IMHO).
And, Spag, my example from upstairs was silly. Of course general members can't see it, so it makes no sense to post it here.
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I found this when I was researching cuss words today. Very interesting discussion about origins. I also noted that democracy is not intended to be rule by the majority - ie mob rule - but also intended to protect the rights of minorities. However, as RD will point out - this is NOT a democracy. But it is a community. When people are not feeling safe about posting, because of negativity, perceived aggression, lack of respect, loss of camaraderie, then maybe this is a symptom of a bigger problem? mmmmmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmm
http://madfishwillies.mu.nu/archives/011066.html (http://madfishwillies.mu.nu/archives/011066.html)
I've already said I use these words at specific times. Therefore I cannot swear I never use them, and find them so offensive I would never use them. I do and have. BUT ... I voted against their use here, because I know it offends some people, people I value. So for me, it's no biggie to not do something that others will find offensive. Just like not smoking in someone's house.
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Curbing language... it's not an exercise in domination?
Perhaps we could have a dress code too.
(I vote for Speedos and a halter top.)
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Here's the summary: no one can make anyone not to cuss. But just as we are considerate to people in our real life and know when to cuss, we should do the same here. Especially because we call ourselves teachers, educators. Some respect in general posts and heads up about special post wouldn't just be nice, but would be an appropriate thing to do.
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So it's not a domination move by you... it's respect for ourselves and our roles?
Because we're not the ones who define our roles. Our roles are a given as part of one larger, modest, harmonious togetherness?
Dude, you're pushing your luck.
(And so too am I. High heels with the Speedos.)
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I'm not pushing my luck. I have been here for a long time and the quality of threads and the language has been going down. I know a few people who stopped even reading because of that. And I personally have very little desire to read or post.
Anyway, I am still posting about it because I care. I have great friends here and I hope for this place to be pleasant for anyone who lurks or posts.
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Yeah, you are. For example, you didn't see that I denied my role as teacher can have a wider claim on my life. That I am a teacher does NOT preclude me from using vulgar language outside of a classroom. I don't need to keep up appearances. I remain a teacher however vulgar I choose to be largely because I do not rely on moving the students to love and respect me as a precondition to being effective. They love and respect me after I teach.
Likewise, I don't totally need to have people respect me here before I post. I take it to be that if I post something true and useful, then perhaps something comes to pass resembling wanting to jump my bones.
Content before image.
And besides, in real life I curse, like, once a week. I believe in understatement and a low voice because it doesn't matter what other people think, because I'll be wanting to convince myself before I convince anyone else... and I'll be wanting to convince myself of truth. That done, it isn't necessary to have another person's agreement. I won't, in principle at least, need to please or appease them, the ideas'll speak louder than me.
(Hardly ever works that way, but I like it as a theory and I'm stuck with it as a practice.:))
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I am not pointing finger though :) Anyway, I am out of this thread. Time to click *mark all read* yet again. Cheers :)
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What a load. Might be time to jump off this sinking ship.
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I'm not pushing my luck. I have been here for a long time and the quality of threads and the language has been going down.
That is both an opinion and a moral assessment that some members might not share.
I know a few people who stopped even reading because of that. And I personally have very little desire to read or post.
That's sad. It's too bad. However, in the end it is also a personal choice. It is one you are choosing to make. Nobody has forced anyone's hand here. Is it so hard to ignore words that are not used in an aggressive, epithet, personally attacking manner? Really. I ask in all seriousness. Are people so sensitive that we have to police ourselves over every single, intangible thing that happens to crack the unpredictable nerves of a clear, relative few? Are we going to have to walk upon egg shells over any perceived slight because of the fickle nature of a few who are demanding that an entire forum live up to their demands or they threaten to leave? Isn't that little more than a very roundabout way of saying, "you don't play the game my way so I'm taking my ball and going home," mentality.
Perhaps proving an individual is above perceived ills would best be put into action by learning how to ignore, learning to contact perceived offenders directly, and trying to talk things out? Mods here are incredibly fair and there's always a line of communication to them. I certainly have experienced this. So, how is it that you cannot address the members directly in private message and hash things out if things are as bad as you perceive. Maybe speaking up in public than complaining to moderators will remind some people who are not here to offend you that, hey: they are offending you.
Unless I've missed something, no one has forced any member to leave. Not one member has publicly gone out of their way to harass another member, liable them, or belittle them in very personal, very private ways. Outside of two instances where the moderators quickly stepped in and restored order, I am curious where this "hostility" is prevalent. Is it the "b. s. wrestling pit?" It is called the "b. s. WRESTLING pit," for a reason. Without providing very clear and specific examples, then it's hard to follow your criteria of things, "going down."
Anyway, I am still posting about it because I care. I have great friends here and I hope for this place to be pleasant for anyone who lurks or posts.
I agree. I fear members will be scared away because a vocal minority are incapable of doing the mature thing and ignoring those sparsely used words that offend them. I wonder if potential members are turned off because they are looking for a place to have productive, mature discourse and dialog that is totally absent from the cafe. There is indeed such a thing as mutual respect, however, making veiled ultimatums implying your absence is because people were using words you disagreed with is placing your feelings as the bar which we must live under when we post anything.
Fluff threads that go on and provide no social value could scare away members. Should we not have them? I think there is a great deal of warmth and a great deal of room here for the saloon to continue providing a viable alternative to the greasy spoon. Because some people flat out refuse to ignore sporadic, tasteful cussing we must then bend to their whim?
I think addressing hostility deserves another post because, though it can be connected to cursing in a valid argument, I haven't seen a hell of a lot of it here associated with cussing. Is it that any debate is perceived as hostility by you? If so, then maybe I can see your point of view, though I think it says less about the state of these forums than it does about an individual's perception.
Is it possible that you are reading hostility into things that are not actually posted with hostility? That happens when there is an inability to see the body language or hear the words spoken.
Is it possible that you do not personally know new members here like I am guessing you know old members here, and because of this, you are reading way too much into new voices? if so, perhaps that ties into an inability to accept gradual changes in the public mores.
It's shame that members feel they are being "driven" away, but membership is growing, loads of useful information is flowing, and there is a refreshingly honest candor and maturity on this board that has made it haven in a land where there are times when individuals need respite from the brain police. Working in a land where there are citizens with overly sensitive, fragile egos, ready to take offense at the perceived slight upon their culture or nation - despite an actual slight not existing - can be bad enough, but to have this forum transmogrified into a virtual mirror of the society we are working in: well, that's not a saloon. It's a church.
In the end, a decision to leave is up to the individual. To each their own. It'd be a loss if you left, but it appears that this is a situation where people who are not getting their way are threatening an exit rather than bringing a community together. It comes off more like a threat than an actual sign of community.
It'd be a shame to see you go, but in the end it's a decision you make for yourself and your own best interests. I think George is onto something when he sees a microcosmic shift in saloon atmosphere based upon a dearth of new members, meaning new personalities. A pinch of Darwin applies here: adapt, Cheeky and not only will you survive, but you will thrive. No one is asking you to change your words or expression. No one is forcing you to do that. It's just incredibly sad that you feel like you'd rather walk away than rise above perceived offenses and continue posting so that you can keep the qualities you apparently love about the saloon viable, valid and perhaps even profligate the bad mojo you see as having altered the saloon experience for you.
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As I write this, the vote stands at 26 to 11. Some are not only interpreting this as not only a simple repudiation of censorship, but accusing the 11 members of attempting to control everyone else. I suggest that isn't very accurate.
The issue is posed here in the poll as a simple Yes or No question, and one of the options encompasses a broader spectrum of answers than the other.
Doesn't bother me; cuss all you want
vs.
I find it offensive and I'd rather not see it here {/quote]
Given a binary vote, one side or the other, the former position, by its very wording, captures all the intermediate positions. That made it a certainly that most would vote that way- the passionate free speech types, the unconcerned and the middle path types find coalition in its mellow tone. I find the fact that the immoderate, blunt wording of the latter statement garnered 30 percent of the total votes... significant. And I for one do not conclude that the other 70 percent were telling them that they're blowing smoke. Some of them were, to be sure, but just by reading the variety of comments it's clear that the 26 voted that way for a variety of reasons.
Put it this way: when you go to a bar you expect to hear stronger and saltier language; in itself this doesn't cause concern. But if the talk is getting more aggressive, rowdy past a certain, hard to define point, the atmosphere of the place gets rougher, and if it continues the patronage tends to turn into a sausage party. We've all seen it.
Has that happened here? I cant say- I've been too busy to show up as often. I can only say there are some things guys say in the locker room that they don't say in mixed company. There are also some things people in general say in smaller circles than they do in larger ones.
This poll, IMHO, was a good start: we're all talking about it, which is healthy. But it's time to separate 2 issues that are tangled together:
1. Should folks have to censor themselves and water down what they say?
2. Is the tone of voice at the Saloon starting to give off an aggressive vibe?
The second question, which a lot of people feel to be the case, and risked being characterized as controlling Tipper Gore types to express, makes me nervous. Is there an obnoxious and/or intimidating atmosphere coming about?
We all have to seriously contemplate both questions. I don't believe any of us want to muzzle other folks, and at the same time I also don't think that anyone wants to make others uncomfortable.
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The second question, which a lot of people feel to be the case, and risked being characterized as controlling Tipper Gore types to express, makes me nervous. Is there an obnoxious and/or intimidating atmosphere coming about?
We all have to seriously contemplate both questions. I don't believe any of us want to muzzle other folks, and at the same time I also don't think that anyone wants to make others uncomfortable.
Back in the olden days, when I was working for Gov't we had loads of 'sensitivity' training. But one of the interesting things about it was in one group discussion, one of the fellas stated that he wouldn't want the female members of his family working in his work place because of the lack of sensitivity the majority of workers (male) had towards women, the language they used around them, and the jokes etc. He stated that he too did NOT like this, but in an all bloke environment, put up with it, and occasionally joined in to make himself part of the 'gang'. There was peer pressure.
I would guess that I would be seen as one of the most vociferously vocal members of this forum - and have been frequently chided for my disagreements and strong presentations of my disagreements. From MY POINT OF VIEW I have been presenting my ideas strongly, with research and logic. Others have seen this as bullying, nasty, pompous and a whole host of other negative descriptions. But I have NEVER personally attacked another forum member, I have expressed my frustration with actions, but my strongest 'bad ' word has been 'pissed off'.
My beliefs about my posts are that they have been respectful of the person even if I have found the ideas to be... dodgy! ahahahahah I have often suggested that those who do not agree with me, do not want to see disagreement, NOT read those threads. But this seems to be impossible to ask. So, when we look at the bad language issue - are we really talking about respect for the readers? Given the hassles I frequently get into ananananan ananananan ananananan it is clear that in general people do not leave a thread alone, despite annoyance, frustration etc etc., they skip in to pick at the scar, and then complain.
So if we are to respect others feelings by censoring presentation of/or not discussing certain ideas - how hard is it to respect others feeling by not using certain words??? In this aspect we have a million other ways of expressing anger, frustration blah blah blah. No-one is telling us that we cannot FEEL, just asking us to present our feelings with respect to the sensitivities of others.
I go back to this is a community. If we all bailed out, there would be nothing left; forget the great techie mechanisms - this is still driven by the PEOPLE on it, the members joining, wanting to share and contribute, wanting to be part of this particular community. We left Dave's for a reason. And if we come down to it, the reason most of us left Dave's was lack of respect for the individual.
This is a question of respect for sensitivities. Doesn't matter if it stems from race, ethnicity, religion, friendship, whatever. If we can still tell people how we feel without bad language - why not use the alternatives?? And here we are ONLY talking feelings - not ideas, not beliefs, so we are nowhere near censorship.
Aggression is seen in the negative responses to mistakes, the sarcasm, and in general lack of respect for individuals. Invective just adds to the negative whole.
Respect - for each other.
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Ai! So complex. Is anyone else feeling, like, 14 years old? Do people seriously have these debates any more?
A more mature topic will be:
If I am to be responsible for the well-being of other people, how best will this be expressed?
And if you do put it like that, you will--absolutely, positively will--discover that different kinds of people value different kinds of expression. EXPRESSION! Expression being positive, and suppression being... well, nothing.
Respect might well incline one to close one's mouth sometimes, but that for shit-sure isn't the most generative of states. There may be better kinds of respect.
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Ai! So complex. Is anyone else feeling, like, 14 years old? Do people seriously have these debates any more?
A more mature topic will be:
If I am to be responsible for the well-being of other people, how best will this be expressed?
And if you do put it like that, you will--absolutely, positively will--discover that different kinds of people value different kinds of expression. EXPRESSION! Expression being positive, and suppression being... well, nothing.
Respect might well incline one to close one's mouth sometimes, but that for shit-sure isn't the most generative of states. There may be better kinds of respect.
Maybe discussions of manners and respect should have been had when we were young. aoaoaoaoao But this is definitely a topic of discussion on many fora, in many 'standards and quality' meetings for movies, TV/radio shows etc.
You invite 10 people to your house. 7 of them smoke. You don't, you don't want people smoking in your house. What do you do? Ask them to respect your views, or respect their right to smoke IN YOUR HOUSE? As a compromise you may ask them to smoke outside. They can still smoke, their right to smoke hasn't been revoked, but they also need to respect you.
We are a community. We have already established limits in many areas, requiring people to behave in certain ways to ensure harmony. What is SOOOOO invasive about this minor one?? If it maintains the harmony here, shows respect to a certain group, allows people to contribute and you can still write home to your granny with a letter full of obscenities, where is the problem??
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You invite 10 people to your house. 7 of them smoke. You don't, you don't want people smoking in your house. What do you do? Ask them to respect your views, or respect their right to smoke IN YOUR HOUSE? As a compromise you may ask them to smoke outside. They can still smoke, their right to smoke hasn't been revoked, but they also need to respect you.
In my house? They smoke the fuck outside.
But then, my house is a cave and most people aren't welcome anyway. People who visit already know what they're getting in to.
We are a community. We have already established limits in many areas, requiring people to behave in certain ways to ensure harmony. What is SOOOOO invasive about this minor one?? If it maintains the harmony here, shows respect to a certain group, allows people to contribute and you can still write home to your granny with a letter full of obscenities, where is the problem??
Not sure. Perhaps I haven't seen the benefit of such a curtailment. What is the benefit? Harmony? This harmony serves what purpose? The better for people to discuss China?
It seems draconian. How about people just grow up?
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I must admit to being surprised by some of the words used. I must also say that I am in awe of some of the members because of their ability to use the English language.Perhaps this is because I have no University education. To get to the point,I just want to say that I find it helps me to better understand the personalities of the posters,when they express themselves naturally.There are words used which I would not use,but I think that helps me to build up a more accurate picture of the poster.I'd rather know WHO you are rather than who you want me to think you are, therefore I value your honesty. bfbfbfbfbf
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This issue is so trivial to me I can't even believe we are having this conversation. kkkkkkkkkk
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this thread indeed doesn't seem to be going anywhere and if anything, it's just gonna generate again....
it's going from a simple poll asking for opinions to a boxing match.... fair enough, it's going to the wrestling pit and have at it there.
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Thanks, 'Noles.
All I wanted was the simple poll, to help me get a gauge on the issue here... llllllllll
So many things slung around...
I left the poll binary by choice after considering some options. In essence it seems to come down to a binary "censor/don't censor" decision, and I didn't want grey areas muddying things up. "Censor some" is really hard to quantify and enforce.
But the poll as such is perfectly fair and fine, or at least about as close as can happen.
BOTH choices have multiple interpretations.
"Don't censor" can take in "say whatever you want" or "I can tolerate a reasonable amount of foul language".
"Censor" can mean "I'm genuinely offended by these words", or "I'm not really bothered by the words but I want to exercise some control over others, especially the ones I don't like" or "I'm not really bothered by the words but I'm voting in sympathy with some friends".
The poll is fine.
Bottom line: We are requesting people that people please be considerate and moderate their use of profanity. And that's about as far as it goes. If you can't deal with that, I'm really sorry.
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Bottom line: We are requesting people that people please be considerate and moderate their use of profanity. And that's about as far as it goes. If you can't deal with that, I'm really sorry.
Well said Boss, I agree that is what it boils down to.
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(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/grownups.png)
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I know of a way to give vent to your anger!
Get drunk as a skunk at home first and hop into a crowded and noisy bar. Sit at a table and shout as loud as you can. No one can hear what you are saying. Swear as much as you can. I sometimes, use a crazy bar as an anger management center in China.
Cussin' in da saloon does not give you 'the feeling'as much as it does at a bar!!
Try tonite! It's Saturday!
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It boils down to knowing when, where, and with whom you can curse around, and which words are appropriate for the person, the context, and/or the situation. The situation, apparently, is there are some who find the language offensive here on this forum. Admittedly, I've found a few choice words used in someone's posts pretty offensive. It's becoming all too common; hence the concerns, and rightly so because I may have to hear this language on the subway with pants dropping, bandana wearing gangstas cursing in front of children and the elderly, I have to hear it way too many times among my students--which by the way, are immediately castigated for doing so, and I have to hear it on the latest t.v. reality show. I can change my mode of transportation, I can change my occupation, and I can change the channel. Right? No, I can't. I don't have to hear it, and I don't have to put up with it, and I don't have to read it, but I can state something about it, I can state how offensive it is. I mean, there is a limit, and there are boundaries--everywhere, and if you don't define those boundaries, that doesn't mean that they don't exist. Those boundaries are defined by respect--unseen, but heard and read by others who may not embrace an exhaustive litany of profanities.
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I think Sir Fudge Loving said how I feel and many of the others feel very eloquently bfbfbfbfbf
I can swear like a trooper when I am upset, but I don't do it in writing.
I absolutely love the way Eric swears. akakakakak akakakakak His command of the English language and all the nuances thereof is astounding. bfbfbfbfbf
I also feel we have all thoroughly expressed our opinions in this thread and additional replies ( pro or con) would just be redundancy. akakakakak However, I am not in any way saying that anyone shouldn't post, as that would in itself be wrong. ahahahahah agagagagag
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1) Very good idea, moving this to the BS-wrasslin' pit. I was wondering if you would take it upstairs, but leaving it down here is probably the better idea. Since the thread seems to have played itself out, maybe make it a sticky, so newbies can have a look and see how different saloonies feel about this evergreen issue? And yes, this is an evergreen topic.
2)El Macho, I've often had the same idea. We could have mandatory caution signs at the top of potentially offensive posts: one for foul robust language; another to indicate that the poster has been imbibing in front of the 'puter and isn't so much posting as thinkiing out loud what s/he would normally keep to him/herself; yet another to indicate that the poster has been eating too much vegemite lately and is climbing on the soapbox again. Perhaps we already have a form of that. It's called the poster's name.
3) You don't have to intend to injure to cause offense. Some of us manage to, when discussing things that matter to us.
And then he'd said things, and he'd said things, and suddenly the world was a new and unpleasant place, because things can't be unsaid
None of this requires the use of vulgar language. That's right, my friends. You can be just as offensive without touching a solitary cuss-word. Some of us are good at that.
4) I had 2 main reasons for leaving the g-spoon and coming here. OK, 3. I was invited. But I left the g-spoon largely because I felt that it was excessively moderated. I felt (as many others do) that the larger than life ego sensitivities of one moderator had become more important than the shared concerns and opinions of much of that community. I got the impression that if no one posted there at all, that mod would be one happy chappie.
The other big reason for coming here is that many of the posters here are people that I recognise from years ago at the g-spoon. People like LE and Cheeks. People who sometimes express quite eloquently what I was already thinking my way through; who sometimes surprise me with things I hadn't considered yet; and who sometimes make points that I vehemently disagree with, but they do so with such persuasive reason that I am forced to reconsider things from their perspective. People that I respect. The g-spoon has lost a lot of them over the years, many have come here, so I followed.
One reason that had little to do with it is the internecine bickering that takes place there. That seems to be cropping up here. I'm willing to live with a certain amount. If there is to be any meaningful discussion, there must sometimes be disagreement. Yes, it got pretty ugly there at times, and no I don't want to see it get that bad here. I don't think the bickering is productive, and I don't get a little cyber-thrill from winding people up or making wee in their pockets. <well maybe just that once> But I do believe that, as much as people can be persuaded to tone done their language in the public interest, others can be persuaded not to take offense when clearly none is intended.
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A.) When did the trains in China get swamped with English swearing?
B.) Isn't that a bit like what the French did when they invaded Britain and put the class system on common language and thus invented the antiquated taboos that morally indignant people would then fabricate connections to the bible and its rules just to further implement the classism in language that the French used as a weapon to oppress the working class masses in England back in the 15th century? They did so to sustain their aristocracy and did so without any respect to the community.
Demands and threats to leave a forum if others do not follow your whim are not only childish, but insulting and show absolutely no respect to the theological, cultural, linguistic and regional origins of other posters.
It's classist, elitist, repressive, and in light of how little profanity is actually used here: exaggerated and irrational behavior.
Is "respect" only a one-way street? That seems to be the case some are making here.
C.) With a majority of posters living and working in a country with little freedom of speech, is it too much to ask that the vocal minority not be a defacto red guard and lighten up? Really, HOW HARD IS IT FOR A MATURE INDIVIDUAL TO IGNORE POSTERS WHO SPEAK FREELY AND IN A MANNER THAT OFFENDS YOU THOUGH THEY DO NOT POST TO OFFEND YOU, IT'S JUST YOU WHO READ THEIRS POSTS AS SUCH. Cursing is not dominating the boards, hostility is not seeping through the walls, and cursing CAN BE USED ELOQUENTLY. Watch 1 hour of George Carlin's stand up and I DARE you to prove me wrong regarding cursing used eloquently.
Is it too much to ask for people to lighten up? To respect that this forum is as much a place to NOT have to police one's self from fragile egos who object to any perceived slight based upon their inability to place context of use when reading certain words?
I find the only "hostility" coming from individuals threatening to stop participating in the saloon if they don't get their own way. I find hostility coming from their odd need to dictate what can or cannot be said when they are neither the proprietor nor a moderator of this forum.
If the moderators and owner allow it, then you have to accept it. It's their private place opened to the public. Clearly this would apply if they wanted to implement a form of censorship, but IT ALSO APPLIES WHEN THEY OFFER THE PRIVILEGE OF LINGUISTIC CREATIVITY AND FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION.
D.) With the ample freedom the moderators provide posters in expressing themselves, do we really need a moral and cultural red guard to figuratively police us and further beat us over the head because THEY read words out of context and in a direct, offensive manner, when rarely are such words directed at the reader as an object of scorn, ridicule and ostricization?
E.) Going through the Saloon archives, a majority of posters go on about their posting lives with no problems. "Live and let live," and, "to each their own."
F.) Lotus made a good point about censorship of ideas, and words are extension of ideas, and if a minority of members want outright banning of words they are also supporting the curbing of ideas. It's not either-or. It's clear cut. If a minority of posters want casual, creative use of cussing banned, does that not mean others are entitled to ask for fluff posts be banned? Posts mentioning religion be banned? Posts critical of anything be banned, because you know - it's hostility!?!
Going through the archives, it appears it's the same minority wanting more controls over linguistic usage are strumming up their annual drum. It would be apparent that the owner and moderators do not share their rigid points of view and perhaps they can be mature enough to continue posting in a manner which exemplifies the kinds of posting behavior they desire, rather than become a new red guard who make threats about leaving when the people who started this forum disagree with their pleas for censorship.
No posters are being asked to leave, nor are the being forced to leave if the occasional, creative, colorful use of cursing crops up, yet some are painting a picture as if they are. This is totally untrue and unfair. Reality is this: not one person has been asked or forced to leave, and anyone leaving because they didn't get their moral agenda furthered is doing so on their own volition. It's too bad they could not find the maturity in themselves to rise above it and continue on, but it is their choice. Using an individual's choice to leave because the owner and moderators of a forum did not bend to their moral compass - using that like a veiled threat, is counterproductive and inaccurate.
Clearly Raoul is not making anyone leave, nor are the moderators. So, can we leave that bogus implication out of the debate? I assume this post falls upon "deaf ears," because the annual drum-bangers on this use of cursing topic took their 'ball" and ran "home," in the face of opposition. llllllllll
If they did indeed take their ball and go home in the face of opposition, that pretty much proves what I was saying to be true: they want things to follow their moral highway, and if they don't they will blame others and waltz off. So, should the same respect be given to their threats of leaving, claims that they are being "forced" to leave, and in their desire to dictate what can and cannot be said on a forum they are neither owner nor moderator of?
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"Deary deary me" to quote Nobody in particular. I'm getting a tad sick of all this waste of bandwidth....is that what it's called??
If you pick up a book and start reading it, only to find that the author has one of his characters saying "Fuck!", do you stop reading that book?
The use of "bad" language in this place is neither, excessive, gratuitous, nor directed at other posters. It comes from the feelings of whatever poster is posting. Sometimes people have a shitty day! Respect their feelings, please! OUT!
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"Deary deary me" to quote Nobody in particular. I'm getting a tad sick of all this waste of bandwidth....is that what it's called??
If you pick up a book and start reading it, only to find that the author has one of his characters saying "Fuck!", do you stop reading that book?
The use of "bad" language in this place is neither, excessive, gratuitous, nor directed at other posters. It comes from the feelings of whatever poster is posting. Sometimes people have a shitty day! Respect their feelings, please! OUT!
Well said, George!!!!
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Bottom line: We are requesting people that people please be considerate and moderate their use of profanity. And that's about as far as it goes. If you can't deal with that, I'm really sorry.
I'm not surprised Spaghetti you could write an exhaustive ranting missive based on this one request. What Raoul requests sounds reasonable and responsible to me--exercising consideration of others by moderating your profanity. Now, what's so difficult about that?
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I'm not surprised Spaghetti you could write an exhaustive ranting missive based on this one request. What Raoul requests sounds reasonable to me--exercising consideration of others by moderating your profanity. Now, what's so difficult about that?
Perhaps Raoul posted it because a vocal minority complained to him.
It does not surprise me that you would deliberately call a well thought out missive that provides food for thought as, "ranting."
With such deliberate distortion of the facts, I have to question the truth behind just how much cursing you claimed to "hear" in your environment: the one you tried to use as an example for why you support censorship and justify the reoccurring need that a very vocal minority has in dictating how individuals can express themselves on a forum they do not run.
If Raoul and the mods implement a code of conduct because individuals are not mature enough to ignore things they don't like, as George succinctly made a plea for in his previous post; then that's sad, but it's Raoul and the moderators' call and we abide by it. Clearly the code, if implemented, would be because some people lack the ability to ignore sparsely used words that offend them, and cannot live without demanding other people stop expressing themselves in that manner. A lack of respect, actually; one that demands others bend to their moral compass rather than accepting other moral compasses. The fact Raoul and the moderators have afforded us the freedom to use such language within reason, and to openly debate* the possibility of censorship is rather marvelous.
*"Debate" meaning, "rant" in your preferred nomenclature. Regardless, I'm sorry that you deliberately mistook personal expression and mature debate as "ranting."
A question for you, SFL: What's so difficult about ignoring harmless words that bother you?
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I guess you told me. I'll pray for you. Jesus will hear my prayers.
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I'll pray for you. Jesus will hear my prayers.
mmmmmmmmmm kkkkkkkkkk
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Ok... I've had enough of this thing by now! We've gone beyond beating a dead horse at this point and what we got here is a perfect case of trying to nuke a dead cadaver...
Spaghetti, I for once resent the whole native speaker/non-native speaker issue and find that is has no bearing on the issue at hand... as a matter of fact, I will go on the record by saying that is baseless, tasteless and classless... the issue with cursing is present in any language, not just English and you're displaying quite a narrow view by referring to how the "french" influenced languages and made it so that curse words fell out of favor. Folks have been cussing since as long as we can remember and it's been frowned upon by society for just as long, regardless of the language.
What is at stake here is the concept of community vs. forum! And what we have here at Raoul's is a community!
This community has been around for a fairly long time by internet standards and it so happens that some of the members don't like cussin.. These members have been around here for quite a long time and their input extremely respected and valuable.
As a community, we like and respect each other!
As a community, we have each other's back!
As a community, we do NOT try and hide behind words while directing personal attacks!
As a community, we care for each other!
I have been member of this said community long before I was one of the so-called "despots" and what made me enjoy it was the fact that I felt I could open my house and welcome just about anybody there! And I have done so many times over.... By the same token, several members of this community have opened their house to me and welcomed me with open arms.
Yes, I like cussing as much as the next person and those who know me in person can testify of that... However, I do care about some of the folks on here more so than I care about using "F#$k" , "C$%T etc.... And thankfully, I master the language enough where I don't need to use said words to make a point. Yes, there are times when there is no substitute and a word will slip here and there, mostly in the "what's pissing you off thread" because that is what's it's there for...
And all of this is not related in any way, shape or form to being a native speaker or any language!!! It's about social norms, behavior, education, class and respecting your community.
And no, this is not about censorship.
it would be censorship if we put a robocop in place to filter out all of these words which we've never done at the Saloon for as long as I have been part of it, mostly because we trust the members to be considerate towards each other.... something you (yes I am referring to you Spaghetti) is apparently unable to do.
yes, this is a direct message posted in public for everyone to see telling you that your contributions are not worth the trouble you're creating on these boards by being overly aggressive, disrespectful and plain rude.
yes, this is a direct message posted in public for everyone to see telling you that when you come to someone's house, you're supposed to make an effort and adapt to said house, not vice versa!
yes, this is a direct message posted in public for everyone to see telling you that you are out of line and your apologies are expected sooner than later.
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Community fundamentals:
Relationships produce production.
Production produces relationships.
I believe it just does happen that while most people can subscribe to both of these axioms, most people, literally as a matter of who they are and how they function, will genuinely prefer one over the other.
In other words, for most people, it is either a sense of togetherness that enables cooperative work or it is cooperative work that enables a sense of togetherness.
Those who emphasize relationships first will tend to value standards of behaviour. Those who put the product first will, by definition, tend to worry less about behaviour if that behaviour does not impact the work.
The world probably needs both kinds of people. And both kinds of people will probably always rub each other a little bit the wrong way.
(And all that was just so you know why in this topic people tend to end up shitting on each other's shoes. For more help, you can call my 1-800 number, 32863669. Ask for Guru K. We sell firearms.)
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What is at stake here is the concept of community vs. forum! And what we have here at Raoul's is a community!
This community has been around for a fairly long time by internet standards and it so happens that some of the members don't like cussin.. These members have been around here for quite a long time and their input extremely respected and valuable.
But they are not moderators. You are. They want to dictate forum censorship, which is not their job. Does it mean that the vocal minority will have sway and new members can expect that anything said that the moderators have not had issue with - if two members have issue with it then those two members can dictate forum policy while the overwhelming majority have no issue with it cannot? Last I checked the majority of posters here voted against censorship.
It's a brutal street trying to be a one way street when it's a two way street.
To simplify "there's cursing in every language," is a pedestrian view and one that removes the reality behind why some words are not viewed as taboo by others.
I'm sorry I offended you, Nolefan. I'm sorry how I stated my opinions offended anyone. Intent was to prove a point. I'm sorry it did not come off that way. I disagree with your take, but as a member I play by the rules. i. e. his topic was moved into the b. s. wrestling pit, I debated the issue.
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Spaghetti, I am a very peaceful person but you are really crossing the line here. You are insulting people in nearly every thread on different occasions. I am very sorry for your bitter unhappy self.
Isn't it time to lock this thread?
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I Moderate myself by choosing what to read, this is very important as sometimes I can get quite depressed reading BS such as this. And Spag, you are dead wrong, the censorship issue wasn't the issue here it was all about a mistaken view point of disrespect which I hope has been clarified.
You can use that poll to show what ever you want but people here are more concerned about disrespect than they could be about swearing, quotes like these are what I don't like to read and why I haven't touched this thread in days;
"Perhaps Raoul posted it because a vocal minority complained to him: the same minority that gets their panties in a knot quite often, if I can use the site archives as evidence"
It's not a minority it's people within a community. kkkkkkkkkk
" It does not surprise me that you would deliberately call a well thought out missive that provides food for thought as, "ranting.""
You are ranting the issue was finalised and resolved, sheesh now you've got me ranting. asasasasas
"It has become apparent that this is a reoccurring that may very well come from the same perpetrators. One that disrupts the community. One that does not respect others nor has their back."
Come again? It's disruptive to the community to let some peoples voices heard? aint that CENSORSHIP? mmmmmmmmmm
SO feel free to heap the shit upon me now I have thrown my hat into this circular argument of stupidity you've created but I have never been able to stand idly by as someone attacks my community. I try to build my community, what are you doing? And please do waste your time by creating some massive missive as why I'm a total douche because I for one am done with this thread and it will not be read so it's a moot point now.
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Whoa.
I think a lot of people's sensitivities are set waaaaay too high.
I think there's so much misunderstanding regarding this thread that it can never be fixed.
I think the references to non-natives was indeed out of line. Otherwise I also think a lot of what Spaghetti has said (certainly not all of it) does make sense.
I think it's time to lock this thread. Damn it. asasasasas