PLEASE HELP- documents for newborn

I'm getting to end of my tether here. Any advice, help or reassurance would be great.

Neither my wife nor I knew that you had to get permission to have a child here in China, so we have left it pretty late (she is due in 3 months and apparently it can take 2-3 months to get this permission - WHY? ). I am told that if you don't have this permission by the time the baby is born then you have to pay a fine. With all the other various costs of having a baby, this news is also very annoying. I'm just hoping the fine doesn't run into the thousands.

My Mrs called the one child policy office today and she was told that because I'm a foreigner I need two documents from my embassy. This is extremely annoying as it means a trip to Beijing, a hotel and the inevitable fee from the useless British consulate for the meaningless crappy bits of paper that the ridiculous bureaucrats here need for some reason. More money and time wasted for no real reason. One of these bits of paper apparently has to prove that i have no kids abroad (I don't). WHY is that even applicable? If I had a kid abroad then he doesn't have and doesn't want Chinese citizenship anyway!

Did anybody else have to provide these documents? Is it possible that the person my Mrs spoke to just doesn't have a clue?

To top it off, the crappy British consulate is closed for UK Easter holidays today AND Monday, so I can't even call them to ask about this.

Why can't it just be simple, like in other countries? Why can't we just register him after he's born? arrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggggggggggggggchinayouirritatemebeyondbeliefsometimes  

Who told you you needed this information? The hospital? Obviously people who have never encountered a child who will not be part of the hukou system/not Chinese.

My husband couldn't us with our local "community committee" to get some document because- although he could prove we were married (which legally, we would have to be to live together) he couldn't produce the document saying I was allowed to have a baby. I hope some people with first hand experience can provide some input- this is BS and you are not bound to follow the laws of this one-child system.

... because I'm a foreigner I need two documents from my embassy. This is extremely annoying as it means a trip to Beijing, a hotel and ...

Is there a closer consulate? I know the UK has them in Shanghai & Guangzhou, perhaps other places as well. Typically, a consulate can do anything an embassy can as far as citizens of either country are concerned, in particular issue passports, visas & other documents. It cannot deal with the host government as the embassy does, but that does not affect you.

This may not do you any good, though. A Canadian friend in Wuhan needed some docs from a consulate and they insisted he go to Beijing because they had "system" in place and according to it, the Beijing embassy was "responsible for" Wuhan so the Shanghai consulate could not help him. I hope British diplomats would be more reasonable, but I am cynical enough not to expect it.

Who told you you needed this information? The hospital? Obviously people who have never encountered a child who will not be part of the hukou system/not Chinese.

But I do want my son to be part of the Hukou system. I will be in China for a few years at least and without a hukou he can't attend school unless we pay high fees... right?

And aren't there other benefits he'd miss out on? 

My kids are not a part of the hukou system. The whole thing, imo, is much more trouble than it is worth, especially if you're only going to be here for a few years. Kindergarten is no problem with or without a hukou, it is only grade school, so you have 6 years, at the very least, before school becomes an issue. They are changing laws regarding foreigners and public school too -- schools are technically required to accept foreigners now, and the fees are high but not so high that they're anything a family raising a kid couldn't afford. Nowhere near international school fees. Most people who are into discussing this sort of thing also give the hukou system 10 years max before it is done away with altogether.

As a foreign woman giving birth I was never ever required to produce permission to have a child. Your wife, if she's working for a government danwei, may have some trouble on the official end of things, but otherwise it should not be an issue.

The problem most foreigners have with local schools is not the access to them -- it is fairly easy to, if push comes to shove, bribe your way into a school, whether you're foreign or not.

The consensus seems to be that the benefits of a foreign citizenship (from the "right" countries) far outweigh the benefits of Chinese citizenship. In China you're not allowed to have 2 citizenships. Some people fly under the radar but technically your kid could have his hukou taken away anyhow for being a foreign citizen. All the hoops you jump through to get this kid official in China could come to nothing. Apparently having your child have a hukou also makes it a bigger hassle when you want to take him out of the country. I believe one of our regulars -- maybe Raoul even -- had some experience with this at some point.

If you're planning on staying in China for life your kids would probably want to be official, but I don't know a whole lot of foreigners who, after having children here, still firmly want to stay in this country forever and ever.

Quote from: Arnold J. Rimmer on April 06, 2012, 05:52:17 PM

... because I'm a foreigner I need two documents from my embassy. This is extremely annoying as it means a trip to Beijing, a hotel and ...

This may not do you any good, though. A Canadian friend in Wuhan needed some docs from a consulate and they insisted he go to Beijing because they had "system" in place and according to it, the Beijing embassy was "responsible for" Wuhan so the Shanghai consulate could not help him. I hope British diplomats would be more reasonable, but I am cynical enough not to expect it.

No, sadly the British consulate strives to provide the most unhelpful service amongst all the consulates. At least that's how it seems.

Beijing is the closest one to me. That's a 3 and half hour trip. Not too bad you might say, but it's finding the time to go around work, considering they are only open normal office hours. Also you have to make an appointment to see them which is usually early in the morning. This necessitates a stay in a hotel the night before to make sure you don't miss the appointment (and you don't want to do that, considering slots are booked up weeks in advance) 

I just can't understand why they refuse to send paperwork in the post.

My kids are not a part of the hukou system. The whole thing, imo, is much more trouble than it is worth, especially if you're only going to be here for a few years. Kindergarten is no problem with or without a hukou, it is only grade school, so you have 6 years, at the very least, before school becomes an issue. They are changing laws regarding foreigners and public school too -- schools are technically required to accept foreigners now, and the fees are high but not so high that they're anything a family raising a kid couldn't afford. Nowhere near international school fees. Most people who are into discussing this sort of thing also give the hukou system 10 years max before it is done away with altogether.

As a foreign woman giving birth I was never ever required to produce permission to have a child. Your wife, if she's working for a government danwei, may have some trouble on the official end of things, but otherwise it should not be an issue.

The problem most foreigners have with local schools is not the access to them -- it is fairly easy to, if push comes to shove, bribe your way into a school, whether you're foreign or not.

The consensus seems to be that the benefits of a foreign citizenship (from the "right" countries) far outweigh the benefits of Chinese citizenship. In China you're not allowed to have 2 citizenships. Some people fly under the radar but technically your kid could have his hukou taken away anyhow for being a foreign citizen. All the hoops you jump through to get this kid official in China could come to nothing. Apparently having your child have a hukou also makes it a bigger hassle when you want to take him out of the country. I believe one of our regulars -- maybe Raoul even -- had some experience with this at some point.

If you're planning on staying in China for life your kids would probably want to be official, but I don't know a whole lot of foreigners who, after having children here, still firmly want to stay in this country forever and ever.

So I'm assuming your kids have US passports then? Does that mean you have to arrange visas for them every year?

They don't need a visa until they leave the border for the first time. I never got any documents when we had either of our daughters. My wife got a birth permit for them in her hometown however, as is required. both of our children are Americans with US birth certificates and Passports. Neither has a hukou.

Right. My kids have US passports and since they haven't left the border yet they don't need visas. In the government's eyes they are hukou-less Chinese citizens until they use their US passport for the first time, then they're American citizens and need visas or residence permits. Since they don't need jobs though the res. permits for kids are not difficult to arrange -- they get the same "family" residence permit that spouses can get.

Since I'm a foreign woman things might be different for me -- obviously foreigners do not need permission to give birth. Chinese women might need a birth permit regardless of whether the kids intend to get hukous or not. Since lots of rich women do give birth to "unallowed" second children though money is probably a way around this.

Thanks guys, that's really helpful.

I gather there is some difficulty in taking kids out of the country if they are Chinese citizens. Does anybody know what that's about? is some for of official permission needed in advance?

Yes, and you need a chinese temporary passport, as well as a special visa to enter the usa in it (despite being citizens).

AJR, I dug up the question I posted back in 2009, before my 2nd child was born, about exit permits for Foreign -Chinese kids without Chinese passports or hukous. I got a lot of helpful information on that post, as I recall, especially from some posters that aren't around as regularly anymore.

Here it is  http://raoulschinasaloon.com/index.php?topic=3799.msg73689#msg73689

AJR, I dug up the question I posted back in 2009, before my 2nd child was born, about exit permits for Foreign -Chinese kids without Chinese passports or hukous. I got a lot of helpful information on that post, as I recall, especially from some posters that aren't around as regularly anymore.

Here it is  http://raoulschinasaloon.com/index.php?topic=3799.msg73689#msg73689

Thanks 

I read through that thread, but it's still quite confusing. Though I'm guessing that since then you have visited the US with your kids and it was fine?

It seems like everybody on that thread without exception rushed to get their kids a passport for their home country. Why is that? Thing is, I don't plan to go to the UK for a good while yet (if ever) to live there. If that's the case, then what's the point in my son having a UK passport? It's not like he can travel independently for at least 16 years anyway.

UPDATE:

Mrs AJR called her local government office and somebody there told her that I don't need any documents from my consulate after all if we want to register little Arnold on her hukou. Quelle surprise! I just need my passport, her ID and family book and our marriage books. I must say that is quite a relief.

I did call the British consulate however to ask about acquiring British nationality for my son, should I choose to do that. They said that it will cost me 1100 yuan for an 'eligibility test' to determine whether my son is eligible for UK citizenship or not. Why the hell wouldn't he be eligible?  Did any of you guys have to do that? Once that check is complete, and assuming he is indeed eligible, it will cost a further 685 yuan to get a 'certificate of nationality' or something like that. Seems like a massive swindle.

AJR, if you don't get your kid the passport right away they can (at least the American embassy can) give you a bit of shit about it. We didn't get my son his passport until he was a year old because we lived in Kunming when he was born and there's no consulate or embassy there. When I moved to Beijing and got my son his passport the woman who interviewed us about it definitely asked a few more questions about why we waited so "long." He ended up getting his citizenship anyhow, but the embassy likes you to do it as soon as possible. The earlier you do it, the easier they make it for you.

British citizenship is one of the more expensive citizenships, if I recall correctly. The process for getting American citizenship is not nearly as complicated or as expensive as it is to get British citizenship.

I think most people also rush to get their kids citizenship because they don't plan on getting the child a hukou or a Chinese passport and they want to take trips back home, or to other countries.

Whether you go the hukou route or not, I would definitely spend the money for your citizenship for your child. Even if he doesn't use it now, having it is an option your child will probably appreciate when he gets older.