Raoul's China Saloon (V5.0) Beta
The Bar Room => The Legalities Board: Visas, Permits, Taxes, and More! (ON-TOPIC) => Topic started by: terences on August 14, 2012, 02:46:35 AM
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I gave up looking for work in China, and have decided to procure an L visa as I married a Chinese woman earlier this year. PSB needs the document showing my FEC has been cancelled. I paid for the cancellation in May. The problem is that the TESOL training school I attended in Harbin has possession of the document and refuses to give it to me. He says the government requires him to keep it on file in his office. I currently live in Beijing on a resident permit (Z visa) and it expires on September 2nd. Time is running out and I do not know how to resolve this issue.
What do I need to do?
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While I am bit surprised no one has yet replied, I have learned it might be in my best interest to go to HK, get a tourist visa, then return to China and get my L visa that way. While not ideal, I suppose it is workable. What I need to know is must I wait to get a tourist visa in HK until after my current resident permit has expired? I suspect this is not a huge issue, but merely one of timing. Especially since my current permit expires on a Sunday and I am going to assume that embassies are closed that day. I go to HK on a Saturday, and return within the first few days of the new workweek.
In any case, your expert opinions I am welcome to hearing.
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I think your HK solution is probably the easiest way to handle things. Your school should be responsible for cancelling your FEC, but maybe they were just planning on letting it expire on its own rather than dealing with it. In any case, getting them to actually do work on your behalf now that your not their problem anymore is probably unlikely.
One bit of advice -- when you're getting your spouse visa, ask for a spouse residence permit rather than an L visa. It doesn't actually give you many noticeable privileges over a L visa, but if you're actually a resident and not a visitor, it is best that your visa recognizes you as such. I live in Beijing too and I know for a fact that the Beijing PSB will give out residence permits rather than long term L visas for spouses. On the application form just check the box for residence permit rather than L visa.
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Isn't it usually the case that the FEC and the residence permit expire at (about) the same time? And how can it be that you have a FEC from Harbin, but a RP from Beijing - don't those two documents have to be from the same place?
It seems that you cannot have two different visas at the same time - so you must wait until your RP (and FEC) expire, or go throw the procedures to have them canceled sooner, and then apply for a L visa. But wouldn't it be best to keep the RP as long as possible since it is already paid for?
I just don't understand why you paid to have a FEC canceled. And I am curious about this topic because I guess I don't fully understand the FEC - I know you first need to get a FEC to get an RP (if you are a teacher), but I always thought that the FEC just expires if you don't renew it. I do remember that the FEC is your property and serves an a form of ID but many employers try to keep them out of fear that the foreigner will lose it.
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I am having a somewhat similar problem - my visa and FEC expire at the end of August, but that's during the school holidays - I actually finished work in July.
I was supposed to start my new job on August 1st, but it seems my old school have not yet cancelled the FEC and this has thrown a spanner in the works. Can't get new visa and FEC until old one is cancelled.
I've been in China a while, and my leaving was all legit and friendly, got my release letter etc, and basically did everything both sides asked me, but this sort of stuff can still catch you unawares.
In my case I think it was just misunderstanding and hopefully it'll all be sorted in time. I guess if you leave on bad terms this is something else a school could possibly hold over you.
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Just to muddy the already murky waters, I almost got bounced at the Beijing PSB yesterday. I've got a new job which starts Sept. 1. My previous school contract ends Aug. 31. Knowing that both schools would be on vacation for most of July and August, I got my previous school to issue a release letter AND get the FEC cancelled (with a certificate of cancellation) back at the end of June. I then sent these to the new school which was able to get a new FEC for the upcoming year. This was issued the first week of July. I wasn't coming to the new school until August 15 so the plan was to do the last step-get the new RP, when I got there. (Current RP ends August 31.) So everything was lined up. Seemingly.
The FAO was going to be away until August 22 so he left the RP application papers for me at my new school apartment. At the last minute, he called the PSB just to check to see if he had everything they needed and suddenly this new issue arose. He was told that there's a new rule that the FEC must be dated within 10 days of the application for RP! My new FEC was dated 5 weeks ago. He'd never heard of this and it is not listed on the Beijing PSB website. So he told me to go and give it a try and if they bounced it, when he got back next week he'd sort it out.
So off I went to the Beijing PSB yesterday by myself one day after arriving in Beijing. At the RP Application Desk, the officer looked through my papers then spent some time looking at my FEC, then with no other explanation she told me to go to Desk 25. I headed over there and the sign said Overdue Visas, RPs and Problem Resolution Officer (or something like that). The first guy I talked to finally explained that the FEC was dated too long ago and I nicely explained that because both schools (old and new) would be on vacation through the summer, we got it sorted ahead of time and the FEB had no problem issuing the FEC (which he held in his hands) early. He asked if I had the original release letter from my old university and, luckily, it was in the pack of papers the new FAO had left me. I also had brought with me everything I had and pulled out the original of my contract with the previous school showing an August 31 end date. This seemed to satisfy him and he had me go make copies for him and then told me to wait and his boss would have the final say. I then went and sat across from his boss and waited. And waited. The boss sat at his computer going through my papers and checking his computer for a full 45 minutes. Once he stopped and asked me for my phone number, then punched it in the computer and went back to looking at the screen. I couldn't imagine what he was doing; was he going through my entire PSB file?
Finally, he went looking for some form, came back punched some more keys and it printed out two copies. At last he deigned to talk to me: "I am issuing you a warning because you broke one of the rules," and he slid a piece of paper with the rules on them and pointed to one. It was about failing to register within 10 days or something.
But I just arrived in Beijing yesterday and I had registered (gotten the Temporary RP they give you when you check in). I had the stamped copy with me! But that wasn't what he was talking about. Apparently, I was supposed to have applied for the RP within 10 days after getting the FEC (back in July) even though my current RP doesn't expire until Aug. 31. By canceling the FEC in June, it apparently de facto cancelled my RP.
"It's just a warning. I'm not going to fine you. Just sign here that you acknowledge the warning then you can go back to the RP Application desk and apply for your new RP."
So I did. And I did.
The new person at the RP desk was very nice and promptly processed the paperwork and then took my picture for the new RP. She even said, "You can smile if you want to," as she took my picture. I did and I did.
Then she handed me a receipt and told me I can pick up my PP with new RP next Wednesday.
Whew!
The lesson here is that there are two different bureaucracies at play here: the FEB and the PSB and both are cracking down on having their rules followed.
For the FEB, you need a release letter from your previous school AND you need to turn in your FEC and obtain a certificate of cancellation for that before the FEB where your next school is will issue a new FEC.
For the PSB, in order to get an RP, you'll need a valid FEC. The RP is thus tied to the FEC (though if the FEB cancels the FEC, that fact won't necessarily show up on the PSB's system).
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Old34, I had the exact same problem when I moved to Beijing. Except they fined me 500rmb. They said I had violated all these rules on the board posted above that desk in the little room - but it just says to register with the "police", which we both did, but apparently that means to apply for a new RP.
My company ended up reimbursing me for the fine- as there was really no way I could've applied for the RP on my own and avoided the fine. I feel your pain though. Sitting in a tiny room with bars on the windows being interrogated by immigration for 45mins while they type a book about your delinquent activities isn't exactly a warm welcome to Beijing. They said it wouldn't have been an issue if I'd just been changing jobs in Beijing, but because I moved from a different city I needed a Beijing-issued RP within 10 days.
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I just moved here on Tuesday. I guess the guy was thinking because the FEC was issued the first week of July that I had moved here then. But I hadn't. The FEC was issued by the FEB here to the school here. I was elsewhere. (I think one of the things the guy was looking at on his computer were the various registrations of where I was. I heard him mumble "Gulou" to another guy. I've stayed in Beijing in August for a week to a month every year since 2007 and always hotels in Gulou, FWIW.)
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Poor guy, shuffling papers around for 45 minutes waiting for a hongbao. These government jobs are so unrewarding these days!
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I think if you tried to offer a Hong Bao in the Beijing PSB they'd likely throw you out of the country. That place does not mess around. It is huge, they probably go through at least 500-1000 foreigner visa applications in a day, so they're extremely by the book. I've also found though, that when you don't have any sort of problem, they're very efficient -- you're just a number to them and they don't have any personal interest in screwing you over or helping you.
What's interesting here I think is the confirmation that the FEC is tied to the residence permit. This means that if a school cancels your FEC, your RP is also canceled. Like Old said, the PSB might not have any way of knowing the FEC has been cancelled, but I also wouldn't bank on it either.
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get the FEC cancelled (with a certificate of cancellation)
Yeah this was what I was missing, but apparently neither side (the old place when I was leaving and the new place when I arrived and handed over my docs) realized it would be an issue...I certainly don't remember needing it last time I changed jobs.
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It seems like (in cases where someone is changing employers) it is easier to just let the FEC and RP expire over the summer and come back on a z visa and go through the FEC/RP application process all over again.* If you are keeping the same job then it's usually very easy to renew the paperwork, but switching jobs AND staying in China over the summer requires one to be ready for dealing with the rules and regulations. Maybe it's their way of discouraging job hopping.
*not such a good deal for holders of a USA passport because of the large visa fees we must pay.
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What's interesting here I think is the confirmation that the FEC is tied to the residence permit. This means that if a school cancels your FEC, your RP is also canceled. Like Old said, the PSB might not have any way of knowing the FEC has been cancelled, but I also wouldn't bank on it either.
Yep, that's the big lesson here.
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I think what you need to do if you are changing jobs over the summer... which is a common occurence that you need to try to sort out the new FEC/RP before the summer starts. This was the summer when a lot of my friends moved from the city I am in to different cities. They all did all of the things to get the new RP into their passport before they left for the summer... For them it meant a trip or two at some stage to the new city to to the things you just have to be there to do like medicals and actually applying for the RP, but in a range of different provinces they have all managed to get the RP before the summer.
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Good advice. You need to handle both the FEC and the RP before summer. I got the FEC sorted before summer figuring I would get the RP taken care of when I arrived in the new city. I had a contract and RP that lasted through the summer ('til Aug. 31). My old and new school assured me it would be OK to take care of the FEC early and that the RP didn't matter because it was good until Aug. 31. They're as surprised by all this as I was. So in the future, get them both handled together and get it done early.
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Yes, my RP expires on the 2nd. My FEC on the 5th. I signed up for a sponsored position at Will Excel whereby they find me a job before I even arrive in China. I trained in Harbin for a month, then moved to my school in Taiyuan. That contract concluded in early June. I had paid for the cancellation of the FEC at the end of May because at the time I was prepared to sign a contract with another school. That position fell through when it became apparent they did not know what they were doing. Further time passed when it became even more apparent that teaching in China without a degree going forward is and was a fruitless search.
I am no longer looking for any teaching position in China and in fact may leave for Cambodia. However, for now, having the visa to live here with my wife would be a nice addition. I just really do not want to have to travel to HK and waste valuable money traveling when I do not have to. I am living in Beijing because I can. For now, I am living on savings, but that cannot last forever.
I have come to the understanding that you are incorrect on one point. The FEC is in fact not your property, it is the schools, but you are supposed to carry it while it is valid according to the law.
Isn't it usually the case that the FEC and the residence permit expire at (about) the same time? And how can it be that you have a FEC from Harbin, but a RP from Beijing - don't those two documents have to be from the same place?
It seems that you cannot have two different visas at the same time - so you must wait until your RP (and FEC) expire, or go throw the procedures to have them canceled sooner, and then apply for a L visa. But wouldn't it be best to keep the RP as long as possible since it is already paid for?
I just don't understand why you paid to have a FEC canceled. And I am curious about this topic because I guess I don't fully understand the FEC - I know you first need to get a FEC to get an RP (if you are a teacher), but I always thought that the FEC just expires if you don't renew it. I do remember that the FEC is your property and serves an a form of ID but many employers try to keep them out of fear that the foreigner will lose it.
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I have come to the understanding that you are incorrect on one point. The FEC is in fact not your property, it is the schools, but you are supposed to carry it while it is valid according to the law.
Yes, I think you are correct. I guess the FEC is kinda like a credit card (which is technically the property of the bank). But I am not sure if the FEC belongs to the school or the provincial experts bureau???
For what it's worth, I have met some people, mostly older gentleman, that almost certainly do not have college degrees but live here and earn money by doing English classes on an informal basis. They almost always have a chinese wife/gf who helps them find the work. Many of these guys do a much better job with the young kids than the recent college graduates by virtue of their age and perhaps because they have kids of their own. Of course there are also people in this category who will give you the stare of death if you inquire about their education, and then proceed to tell you about their masters degrees from an old private university that closed decades ago. but that's a different topic.
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I just received a very evil text message from a previous teacher. When he left, the school cancelled the FEC and gave him a release letter (he left contract early). His new school did not tell him what paperwork was needed so I guess we cancelled the FEC but did not give him a copy and he didn't request it. The new school did not request it either.
He told me that he just paid a 6000 rmb fine (he left about 1 1/2 months ago).
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Is this the guy you mentioned in another Thread - where you asked our opinions on paying out salary? I guess his karma bit early kkkkkkkkkk In any case, I don't see that it's your problem any longer ...
...His new school did not tell him what paperwork was needed...The new school did not request it either.
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This is why it's always best to leave on good terms and not to burn your bridges if you can help it - my problem was all sorted out pretty quickly but it could potentially have really f***ed things up.
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Yes same guy. He sent me several texts last night saying that this was all my fault. I should have helped him with what paperwork his new school needed. He said that I disgusted him and that white Canadians should stick together (I was more offended by the white part then by the digusting part).
Hello Karma bfbfbfbfbf He may have also been a more of a target as his neighbours went to the police several times about him so I'm sure he was on file.
Oh and I found out that we did give him the FEC cancellation document.
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So did he fell foul of this apparently new or newly enforced rule 'cancelled FEC = cancelled Residence Permit', hence the fine? He's technically had no visa since he left you guys if i understand things.
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Hey Babs,
If these kind of reactions bother you, (i kinda enjoy this sort of thing), then perhaps you should have a meeting with out-going teachers at the end of their contracts, thanking them for their service blah, blah but also clearly telling them that they are responsible for requesting any paperwork needed for their next position in a timely fashion (perhaps a set date). Explain that the laws change quickly and are not uniformly in-forced throught the country and that they are responsible for doing their own research as to what their incoming school needs/wants. Perhaps give them some links where they can start to research (here?).
Many (most?) shorter term foreign teachers really don't take into account how often the 'rules' change. They depend on the institutions to handle all paperwork and assume everything will be taken care of. This is especially true for those that have not worked in foreign countries before. They assume that the laws stay the same over the course of their contract. Most schools don't help the situation by not explaining the process other than "give me you passport and a few pictures" How many times have we thought a FAO incompetent due to the fact they missed a change in the law? Shift their view of this responsibility from you to them, as it should be.
While this all seems obvious and shouldn't need to be said to an adult, many foreign teachers are not much more than children regardless of their age.
Anybody who says "Us white Canadians should stick together is not truly a Canadian" bmbmbmbmbm
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I have come to the understanding that you are incorrect on one point. The FEC is in fact not your property, it is the schools, but you are supposed to carry it while it is valid according to the law.
Yes, I think you are correct. I guess the FEC is kinda like a credit card (which is technically the property of the bank). But I am not sure if the FEC belongs to the school or the provincial experts bureau???
For what it's worth, I have met some people, mostly older gentleman, that almost certainly do not have college degrees but live here and earn money by doing English classes on an informal basis. They almost always have a chinese wife/gf who helps them find the work. Many of these guys do a much better job with the young kids than the recent college graduates by virtue of their age and perhaps because they have kids of their own. Of course there are also people in this category who will give you the stare of death if you inquire about their education, and then proceed to tell you about their masters degrees from an old private university that closed decades ago. but that's a different topic.
You are correct. I posted a memo my company put out when a teachers inquired about their FEC. Here is a link to that thread... http://raoulschinasaloon.com/index.php?topic=7777.0 (http://raoulschinasaloon.com/index.php?topic=7777.0)