Raoul's China Saloon (V5.0) Beta
The Bar Room => The BS-Wrestling Pit => Topic started by: Just Like Mr Benn on April 12, 2011, 03:28:33 PM
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This is kind of a tributary of the 'Strange Customs for New Mothers' thread, but I get wound up by Chinese people's superstitions.
I recognise that China has its own culture, but I don't think it's reasonable for it to have its own laws of science. Of course some old wives tales contain some truth, and its not a uniquely Chinese phenomena.
From my British eyes, some widely held beliefs / superstitions in the USA are laughable. I'm unsure what Americans find ridiculous about us; perhaps the belief that Cricket is an interesting sport to watch.
We all have superstitions, but some of my Chinese friends seem to have problems separating fact from fancy. One of my friends said she was an atheist, and yet when she passes a Buddhist temple she starts praying.
Some may feel that this is harmless, but it feeds the idea that scientific facts are, in fact, just one possible idea, and superstitions should be given equal weight.
Please note that I have deliberately avoided specific superstitions, (apart from the Cricket thing). if this thread became about subjects that will cause argument that would be unfortunate.
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I was speaking to one of my students just recently about a current notion/superstition that has just passed recently. Quite literally 'the protective power of salt against radioactive waste from Japan'. For one day there in March salt was more expensive than gold in the stock market. Apparently the government released an official statement informing the Chinese people that salt would not protect them but it was ignored. A controversial (and in my opinion quite funny) comic strip artist drew a picture of two married people giving each other salt as opposed to rings.
Some old wives tales/superstitions have a real bearing in life/science or ring of truth to them, some however appear to be just genuinely mis-guided.
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I was speaking to one of my students just recently about a current notion/superstition that has just passed recently. Quite literally 'the protective power of salt against radioactive waste from Japan'.
That was discussed here: http://raoulschinasaloon.com/index.php?topic=6151.0
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I was speaking to one of my students just recently about a current notion/superstition that has just passed recently. Quite literally 'the protective power of salt against radioactive waste from Japan'.
That was discussed here: http://raoulschinasaloon.com/index.php?topic=6151.0
Thankyou... I think? mmmmmmmmmm
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I hate superstitions no matter where they come from. Chinese culture is deeply superstitious, and superstition is something that the Communists tried very hard to eradicate (and rightly so, in my opinion. Culture is one thing but deliberate and sometimes harmful ignorance is another entirely), although they didn't quite succeed.
Western culture has its superstitions but most people, at least in my experience, don't really take them particularly seriously, they're more things that we all know are kind of silly and if we mention them, it is in an ironic way. No one I know really believes that if you break a mirror you'll have 7 years of bad luck or that Friday the 13th will be a horrible day.
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Which superstitions are widely held in the US in your opinion?
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Which superstitions are widely held in the US in your opinion?
I'm going to sof-foot this a little. (I think it must have been me that prompted the question).
The Wikipedia definition is 'a credulous belief or notion, not based on reason or knowledge'.
I'm not sure if I put the China bit into the thread title or a mod added it. I've no wish to turn this into a discussion of sensitive Western superstitions. As has become clear in the past, there are plenty of more appropriate forums for discussing those. I just mentioned it because nor did I want to suggest in some snobbish way that China is the only country that has superstitions, though my goodness do they have a lot of them.
The Local Dialect is right in suggesting that non-religious superstitions are taken with a pinch of salt (deliberate pun - see below.) in the West, but in China there seems to be a dangerous blurring of the lines between science and fancy.
The Chinese aren't the first to believe in the miraculous properties of salt. The phrase 'pinch of salt' comes from Pliny the Elder's Naturalis Historia, regarding the discovery of a recipe for an antidote to a poison. In the antidote, one of the ingredients was a grain of salt. Threats involving the poison were thus to be taken "with a grain of salt" and therefore less seriously. An alternative account says that the Roman general Pompey believed he could make himself immune to poison by ingesting small amounts of various poisons, and he took this treatment with a grain of salt to help him swallow the poison. In this version, the salt is not the antidote, it was taken merely to assist in swallowing the poison.
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I'm not aggressively challenging your assertion, I just am unfamiliar with what a foreigner would consider "widely-held" superstitions in the U.S., other than the common belief in superstitions that occur around the world, like religion. Things like "The world is dangerous and 'those people' are out to get you" would be something else I notice about the U.S. although I wouldn't classify it as superstition, which to me typically brings to mind beliefs based on magic or the supernatural.
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I've got a perfect Chinese-American contradiction on what might be called a low-level superstition.
In America, the BEST thing to eat if you have a cold is chicken soup. (not everyone believes this, but some really do)
In China, chicken soup is supposed to be one of the worst things to eat if you have a cold. This according to my lovely wife who knows all about everything I am and am not supposed to eat at all times, mostly based on what will either make me too cold or give me internal heat. ahahahahah
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I slammed my toes full stride into a lawn sprinkler-head Sunday afternoon. (Yeah, a sprinkler-head in China-not something you're expecting to find as you walk across a lawn.) I was wearing canvas shoes and it hurt like a MF. Luckily, no blood but I was pretty sure I broke something down there. (I didn't.) As I writhed in pain, all the Chinese were telling me to go home and soak it in HOT water.
I'm a coach and luckily I have an ice-pack in the freezer which I bring to practices just for occasions like this (no, not sprinkler-head injuries, but things like getting hit with a bat or a thrown or batted ball, or twisting an ankle rounding first base, etc.)
So I went home and iced it down. Swelling was down by the evening, but still really painful. (Then the building's elevator broke down, so I had to hobble down and up 6 flights the next day, but that's another story.) Today, 72 hours later, and after ice treatments the last 2 days, I can walk with minimal pain, just in time for my first two classes of the week this afternoon.
Honestly, I think this Chinese fixation on all things hot is somehow rooted in the fact that up until only 15 or so years ago, there was no refrigeration here and thus, no cold drinks, no ice cubes, etc. It was just easier for them to boil a kettle of water and only running dog capitalists had refrigerators and the means to pay for the electricity to run them 24 hours a day. Three Chinese teachers share an apartment in my building, and they recently told me they have a refrigerator in their apt., but it's been unplugged since last September when the weather started getting cooler. bibibibibi
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Three Chinese teachers share an apartment in my building, and they recently told me they have a refrigerator in their apt., but it's been unplugged since last September when the weather started getting cooler. bibibibibi
Hey, what's wrong with that?! We actually do that during the winter as well, because it is so damn cold outside of our bedrooms (where the heaters are) that I feel like plugging in the fridge is a waste of electricity! ahahahahah
The superstition that bothers me the most is the going to bed with wet hair thing.
So far i think 20-30 students (at different times) have told me that it is not only unhealthy but extremely dangerous to go to bed with wet hair. When I say why, they say because when I'm 60 all the water will have slowly seeped into my brain and give me terrible headaches!
I always ask for medical proof on it, some more of paper or something, but they have yet to show me one!
And like you Olds, I was trying to figure out where the superstition came from because i believe it is rooted in something logical for the time it came from. Maybe something to do with mold growing in pillows if you repeatedly put wet hair on them? I'm not sure.
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Thank you Borkya! At long last I get the explanation! My darling "knows" that wet hair will cause headaches later in life, but no one ever told her it was from water seeping into one's brain.
I also ask for proof of some of this and she says "Scientists say so." yyyyyyyyyy
This is your brain. ;)
This is your brain after going to bed with wet hair for 60 years. eeeeeeeeee
Any questions?
axaxaxaxax
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Me mamma always said that going ta bed with wed 'air would make mold grow on me scalp from it bein' constant wet like, she'd also said dat it wasn't no good for me pillow cause it never got dried and little mold spores and stuff wood grow aye.
How's that?
Also heat can help with swelling as well, depends on the injury right? RICE - rest, ice, compression and elevation except for when you need a heat pack haha.
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No EL, you clearly don't understand the dangers of going to bed with wet hair! If you do every day, well, you won't live to be 60. They told me you only have to do it ONCE, then.....
eeeeeeeeee
....60 years later.
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China's got a strange mixture of science and superstition. Just about everyone I've ever discussed religion with in China is an atheist, but almost every one of them observes lots of old religious practices. Some of it is just traditional I guess, like the complex funeral rituals and tomb sweeping stuff. They don't believe in an afterlife but burn paper money to benefit the dead in their, um, afterlife.
My theory is that they are not naturally very questioning and accept as gospel what their parents, grandparents and teachers tell them. These things may be contradictory, but western logic doesn't apply here, ha ha!
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Which superstitions are widely held in the US in your opinion?
Brits tend to believe, rightly or wrongly, that Americans have innumerable allergies that don't really exist.
I'd just flown back from Korea one time and was telling some Chinese students about Korean fan death (you can't leave a fan on overnight or you die). They thought it was hilarious. At this point I was dripping huge amounts of sweat, teaching in a small room with no AC and too many people. I was literally dripping on the desks. I stood right in front of the fan.
My top student, and interesting guy who knew more world geography than most people put together (he was a geography major) pulled me away. "You'll catch a cold!"
"How?", I asked, pointing out that the cold is caused by a virus.
"No, no, no", he said - then informed me that he knew for a fact that temperature differences cause colds, and that he should know since he was a doctor. And the other students all backed him up.
I'm a little superstitious about doctors who studied geography rather than medicine.
Anyway, I'm off now to increase my internal heat :alcoholic:
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About the ice vs. heat on the foot thing,
going hobbling to my classes this afternoon, I had an extra 5 minutes to think and decided I'd warm them up (*pun*) with my sad story and the "medical advice" I had received.
Whaddya know, most of the students were shaking their heads and saying, "No! Cold water!" when I relayed to them the advice I had been given-before I even had a chance to mention ice-packs. They already knew it. And they are English majors, not nursing or medical students.
My faith in China's future, as evidenced by my own students, went up a few notches today. And my foot wasn't hurting nearly as much at the end of classes as it was after the walk across campus to begin class.
Next up - my War against Umbrellas.
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Hey! Leave umbrellas alone!
On my first day in China some moons ago I met an Aussie teacher who was trying to explain to the locals what an umbrella is for. But as one of those Brits who had to study Latin at school I had to agree with the the locals.
An umbrella is a sunshade.
Some ingenious Brit realised that a sunshade could be used as a rain shield. Note, 'shield'.
Likewise, some ingenious Roman realised that the principle applied to chariots - the whole point of spokes is to damage other people!
Umbrellas are excellent weapons.
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No EL, you clearly don't understand the dangers of going to bed with wet hair! If you do every day, well, you won't live to be 60. They told me you only have to do it ONCE, then.....
eeeeeeeeee
....60 years later.
But I can remember going to bed with wet hair when I was very young. ananananan aoaoaoaoao ananananan aoaoaoaoao ananananan
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China's got a strange mixture of science and superstition. Just about everyone I've ever discussed religion with in China is an atheist, but almost every one of them observes lots of old religious practices. Some of it is just traditional I guess, like the complex funeral rituals and tomb sweeping stuff. They don't believe in an afterlife but burn paper money to benefit the dead in their, um, afterlife.
My theory is that they are not naturally very questioning and accept as gospel what their parents, grandparents and teachers tell them. These things may be contradictory, but western logic doesn't apply here, ha ha!
When I'm at home for Christmas, I go to the odd carol concert and sing the old songs if I'm alone in he house. (Me + singing + audience = not good. I promised one class that I will sing for them next year an hour after applying for a job in Poland.) But it doesn't seem strange to me that people would carry on with the rituals long after the belief has vanished. Hell, that's why the Church of England is still in business! (That and the massive property portfolio.)
Mind you, one Chinese teacher I know believes that she has seen aliens. That would be strange enough, but she wears glasses that are about half an inch thick. A great person and blind as a nonogenarian bat with cataracts. Another Chinese teacher is fascinated by TCM. He believes that it's possible to cure oneself of anything by studying and practicing meditation. Still, I know a couple of people in the UK who believe seriously in ghosts - again, clever people, though people who have got their education from largely non-academic sources.
Okay, I know some strange eccentric interesting types.
As for widespread Western superstitions, does homeopathy count?
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Going to bed with wet hair is not a good idea, unless you like looking like this fella aoaoaoaoao. Get the industrial strength gel out though and Bob's your uncle after an hour of sculpting.
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Me mamma always said that going ta bed with wed 'air would make mold grow on me scalp from it bein' constant wet like, she'd also said dat it wasn't no good for me pillow cause it never got dried and little mold spores and stuff wood grow aye.
my mother used to tell us not to 'pull faces' meaning sticking out tongues at our siblings etc. as the wind will change and we will look like that all the time. She quickly stopped when i pointed to a guy with a contorted facial impediment and said look the wind must have changed when he was pulling a face.
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Me mamma always said that going ta bed with wed 'air would make mold grow on me scalp from it bein' constant wet like, she'd also said dat it wasn't no good for me pillow cause it never got dried and little mold spores and stuff wood grow aye.
my mother used to tell us not to 'pull faces' meaning sticking out tongues at our siblings etc. as the wind will change and we will look like that all the time. She quickly stopped when i pointed to a guy with a contorted facial impediment and said look the wind must have changed when he was pulling a face.
A well meaning family member once tried to explain different skin colours to me by using the different types of chocolate - dark chocolate, milk chocolate etc.
Subsequently I tried to 'eat' the first Aboriginal man I ever saw when I was about 4 or 5. Surprisingly it went down rather well bfbfbfbfbf
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My theory is that they are not naturally very questioning and accept as gospel what their parents, grandparents and teachers tell them.
I asked someone about why they did something (can't remember what it was, but it had something to do with ancestral worship) and they said they did it to please their parents... bibibibibi
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Well my mamma used to say that if you sneeze in the middle of a sentence, you were going to tell a lie.
But for some reason it didn't apply to her sneezes
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Arthur C Clarke:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguisable from magic
Gregory Benford: Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced
Stevie Wonder: When you believe in things you don't understand
Well they would say that, wouldn't they? Clarke and Benford are both scientists who turned to writing scifi, and Stevie Wonder was, well, 2 out of 3 ain't bad, right?
One aspect of this that interests me is the role of the expert authority, both in our hosts' culture and in our own cultures. Why do we believe experts, and what do they have to do to lose our faith? Certainly the dominant mythologies present in each civilization serve largely to protect the dignity and authority of that culture's high priests, whoever they may be and whatever they may call themselves. coming from outside our hosts' culture makes it easier for us to see the incongruities in their belief system, just as it is easier for them to see th inconsistencies in ours when (if) they have a chance to become familiar with ours.
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I once had a student (about 18) ask what's the difference between myth, superstition and religion. As an on the spot question, I had a hard time giving a solid, honest and intelligent answer without the benefit of time to think about it. After going home to ponder it, I'm still not sure of the answer
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I once had a student (about 18) ask what's the difference between myth, superstition and religion. As an on the spot question, I had a hard time giving a solid, honest and intelligent answer without the benefit of time to think about it. After going home to ponder it, I'm still not sure of the answer
My personal definition - If it's a cool story that no one takes literally anymore, it's a myth - Virtually no one believes in the Greek or Norse myths anymore - they may have been religions once, but they've fallen to the level of myths. One should also note the presence of the phenomenon called urban myth, which is an improbable, but cool story often believed by many and that requires the combined efforts of Jamie and Adam to disprove it. ahahahahah
If it's your belief system, it's superstition. If it's mine, it's religion. ababababab
More seriously, a superstition could be a belief that has little/no factual basis and (usually) not directly tied into religious beliefs. It's often (but not always - I'm sure someone has some counter-examples) possible to apply a little science to show that a superstition isn't true. For example, we blindfold 1000 people and randomly have them walk down one of two paths. One is just a path. The other has them walk under 5 ladders while 13 black cats cross the path. We can then follow these people and monitor them for health and employment status changes and (hopefully) show that there is no statistically significant difference.
A religion is typically based on faith and isn't very easily placed under scientific scrutiny (ok, some specific elements may be testable, but general faith in divinity isn't so simple to deal with in the lab). If I believe that God set off the big bang, it won't be easy to design an experiment to prove me wrong (or right). If I believe that God delivers divine messages via the Pope, some Buddhist leader, or directly from Raoul, it won't be easy to prove this to be incorrect, unless one of these messengers decides to make statements that are subject to independent verification. If I believe that the afterlife is an eternal foot massage administered by the prettiest possible Chinese girls, you can hope I'm right and even join me in this belief, but you probably can't prove or disprove it.
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The impotus should be on the followers of the superstition to prove it, not on sceptics to disprove it. Why should I have to prove that every superstition is misguided?
You may say, what's the harm? Let people believe what they like, but if people present superstition as fact then they should be obliged to back it up. It really doesn't matter if people believe that a certain colour is unlucky or putting one sock on before the other helps them to score goals, but throughout history people have died because of superstition.
Obviously I feel strongly about this, but from a China perspective, my question is this. Is my western rationalism objectively good, or is it just a cultural difference. I mean, I've obviously already made up my mind, but I'm open to other's opinions; provided they're backed up by empirical evidence of course. uuuuuuuuuu
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You can substitute "religion" for "superstition" in your post, and have a parallel argument.
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And that was my point. Myths may be old now, but in their time, it was a strongly felt belief. We may laugh at some of the strange Chinese superstitions, but we have our own dousies.
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Just covered Shirley Jackson's The Lottery with my American Lit students. Last week when we read the story in class they were horrified. This week, after they had a chance to reread it, answer the assigned questions and give it some thought the classroom discussion made my teacher's heart proud. It began with a few students alluding to the uneducated masses. I posed the question about beliefs held by educated people, and they came up with Qing Ming and the burning money thing. They also came up with an apparently true story of a 'pure girl' being tossed into the Yangze River about 20 years ago so there wouldn't be flooding. Once that was introduced into the conversation they began to view the villagers in the story in a slightly different way.
Flip side - was teaching Easter to my grade 7 private kids last Saturday. They clearly think people who believe in the resurrection and Jesus being God's son are crazy. They like coloring eggs and eating candy though.