So many questions I don't even know where to begin...

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Re: So many questions I don't even know where to begin...
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2012, 09:45:15 PM »
Well, Will Excel probably "has" the ability to hire foreign teachers legally, and then they're farming their FTs out to other schools. I put "has" in quotation marks because it is entirely possible they're getting some other outfit do the visa/RP paperwork for a fee. It is entirely likely that Will Excel forged a degree for you (that you were never aware of) in order to process your visa/RP paperwork -- this happens pretty often.

Re: So many questions I don't even know where to begin...
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2012, 09:59:45 PM »
Ok, thanks for giving me your opinion on this.

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Raoul F. Duke

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Re: So many questions I don't even know where to begin...
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2012, 10:06:16 PM »
Sorry, I thought that was clear... Adam is right...you can only obtain or renew a Residence Permit through an employer. When you're job searching, you need to make absolutely sure a prospective new employer can offer you a Residence Permit.

Also as Adam indicated, this is going to be difficult for you because you don't have a degree. The laws of China, which are fragmented among provinces and cities, have been in the process of changing. The new rules state that a degree is required in order to get a Work Permit as a teacher. Generally, the Work Permit is a prerequisite to getting a Residence Permit; even if you can get the RP through your spouse, you'll still need a Work Permit in order to work legally.

How did Will-Excel do it? Several possibilities...
It may be that they're based in one of the rapidly-declining number of locations that doesn't yet require a degree, or at least didn't at the time you got yours.
It may be that they listed you as something other than a Teacher when applying for your Work Permit- some occupations don't require a degree. This is, of course, illegal.
It may be that they outright bribed their provincial officials to waive the rules on their behalf.
Or, as TLD indicated, they may have forged a degree for you. Many possibilities...
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Re: So many questions I don't even know where to begin...
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2012, 10:16:30 PM »
I can see that the rest of this month should be pretty revealing as to my future in China. Because man is this a pain in the ass.

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Raoul F. Duke

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Re: So many questions I don't even know where to begin...
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2012, 10:21:23 PM »
Because man is this a pain in the ass.

You said it, brother. The constant hustle for legal papers is one of the major downsides of expat life in China... ananananan
"Vicodin and dumplings...it's a great combination!" (Anthony Bourdain, in Harbin)

"Here in China we aren't just teaching...
we're building the corrupt, incompetent, baijiu-swilling buttheads of tomorrow!" (Raoul F. Duke)

Re: So many questions I don't even know where to begin...
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2012, 10:30:58 PM »
Yes, and regrettably I am not independently wealthy, nor is my wife for that matter. So residing here on just a spousal visa is not really that desirable (or realistic) of an option. I definitely need to see what my current school can do, but continue looking for possibilities elsewhere in China.

Re: So many questions I don't even know where to begin...
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2012, 12:28:49 AM »
One thing you really have to realize is that, as mentioned earlier in this thread, a TESOL is not and never will be a substitute for a degree. The Powers That Be in China are currently clamping down with a heavy hand on illegally employed laowai. It sounds to me as if your last school sweetened the application form with a hongbao filled with pink bills. If you are caught working here illegally, the minions of Kang Sheng will lose not one iota of sleep putting you on a plane home, spousal visa notwithstanding. You can have your residence permit renewed, most probably at another unlicensed school who is willing to bribe officials. Again, I do wholeheartedly recommend you do not attempt this in Beijing. The further out in the country you go, the better the possibility of renewing Res Permit and the less chance of being purged by officious people in uniforms.
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Re: So many questions I don't even know where to begin...
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2012, 03:08:27 AM »
I would definately forget about Beijing. It may be possible to still get a legal work visa (I stress may) if you head to an area that is very undesirable to the average foreigner. I'm thinking about Gansu or Ningxia.
Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try. Homer Simpson

Re: So many questions I don't even know where to begin...
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2012, 03:49:01 AM »
Trust me, I will be doing nothing illegal, like forging a degree. If the school is bribing officials, there's nothing I can do about that. If I do not have a job by next month, I will most definitely be exploring other options outside of China.

I wrote Will Excel earlier to get their opinion and advice. We'll see what they they have to say if anything at all.

One thing you really have to realize is that, as mentioned earlier in this thread, a TESOL is not and never will be a substitute for a degree. The Powers That Be in China are currently clamping down with a heavy hand on illegally employed laowai. It sounds to me as if your last school sweetened the application form with a hongbao filled with pink bills. If you are caught working here illegally, the minions of Kang Sheng will lose not one iota of sleep putting you on a plane home, spousal visa notwithstanding. You can have your residence permit renewed, most probably at another unlicensed school who is willing to bribe officials. Again, I do wholeheartedly recommend you do not attempt this in Beijing. The further out in the country you go, the better the possibility of renewing Res Permit and the less chance of being purged by officious people in uniforms.

Re: So many questions I don't even know where to begin...
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2012, 03:54:17 AM »
Other than the obvious things like a recruiter asking for money from me for a job, a school telling me they'll give me 6000 yuan per month for 30 hours of teaching, or a school telling me it's no problem to work with an F visa, what if anything can I do to ensure the job is fairly legit? I understand there are no guarantees in this world. What things indicate an employer is on the up and up rather than the typical things to indicate an employer is hinky?

Re: So many questions I don't even know where to begin...
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2012, 04:45:58 AM »
Other than the obvious things like a recruiter asking for money from me for a job, a school telling me they'll give me 6000 yuan per month for 30 hours of teaching, or a school telling me it's no problem to work with an F visa, what if anything can I do to ensure the job is fairly legit? I understand there are no guarantees in this world. What things indicate an employer is on the up and up rather than the typical things to indicate an employer is hinky?

your best bet is to ask around... and the best place to do that is right here...  agagagagag

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Re: So many questions I don't even know where to begin...
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2012, 03:52:20 PM »
You are right in that you have no way of knowing if the school that hires you is going to be bribing officials or forging a degree on your behalf, and, to be honest, schools don't do those sorts of things unless they know they're going to get away with it. 

Of course you need to be up front about the fact that you don't have a degree so that the school can give you a straight answer.

I will say that if you already have a proper residence permit, it IS much easier just to have it transferred over to the new employer (with a release) than it is to do the whole thing again from scratch. This may be what some of the schools are alluding to. I am not absolutely sure, but I think once you have the work visa/RP already, when the new school applies for a switch they do not have to show all of the original documents all over again, at least if the switch is within the same province. Again, I can't say this with 100% certainty, but when your contact said it was easier to extend/renew, that might be what she meant.

To be honest, I don't think there are any provinces at all that don't officially require a degree to work legally. Whether or not those rules are enforced or not is an entirely different story, but the trend over the years has definitely been towards a stricter interpretation of the laws.

And look, I'm not going to advocate working illegally, but you're married so you need to stay in the country, going home is not an option. If worse comes to worst, get the spousal RP. The process is pretty simple and at the very least it will buy you some time. I am sure you'll be able figure something out.


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Raoul F. Duke

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Re: So many questions I don't even know where to begin...
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2012, 07:55:43 PM »
TLD, the spousal RP is a pretty new development. Are you sure it's available everywhere?
Of course, whether it's RP or an L Visa, he still has to solve the Work Permit problem... llllllllll
"Vicodin and dumplings...it's a great combination!" (Anthony Bourdain, in Harbin)

"Here in China we aren't just teaching...
we're building the corrupt, incompetent, baijiu-swilling buttheads of tomorrow!" (Raoul F. Duke)

Re: So many questions I don't even know where to begin...
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2012, 08:45:04 PM »
RD, I'm pretty sure they just started automatically doing RPs instead of L visas a couple of years ago (at least 2, maybe 3), and I don't see why they wouldn't be available everywhere, but I can't say for certain. The process is exactly the same as with the old L visa and you don't even have to ask the visa officers for it, it is what they'll give you by default now.  I don't know who among the Saloonies will cop to having one, but I am positive there are members here who do, living in various provinces. ;) In any case, it is easy enough to find out, have your wife call up the entry/exit department of your city's PSB and ask them. OP, if you go this route, what you'll want her to ask about is a 居留许可 for the purpose of 探亲. You can theoretically get this permit in the city where you're living if your spouse also has registered a temporary residence permit for that city, otherwise you have to go to your spouse's hometown.

And no, it doesn't solve the work permit problem but the guy has a wife here, so he has to stay in the country. I am assuming that going back to his home country without his wife is not an option, and he's not going to be able to get her a visa to his own country before his Chinese visa expires. He might need a quick fix (in order to stay in the country) and without a degree his legal options are pretty limited. The spousal RP is a much better option than a regular L visa or an F visa, and cheaper too.

Re: So many questions I don't even know where to begin...
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2012, 03:40:43 AM »
Thank you for your response, it is much appreciated. I do think the spousal visa is something to have as a nice backup. How much is the spousal visa?

You are right in that you have no way of knowing if the school that hires you is going to be bribing officials or forging a degree on your behalf, and, to be honest, schools don't do those sorts of things unless they know they're going to get away with it.  

Of course you need to be up front about the fact that you don't have a degree so that the school can give you a straight answer.