Wikileaks

Breath of fresh air or callous killers by proxy of informants and collaborators?


I don't know how many people ended up dead because the "Afghan Diaries" were wikileaked, but "breath of fresh air" seems to sum up the diplomatic cables affair.

But then I suppose people will end up dead because of that too and we'll have to keep breathing the same old governmental exhaust as newspapers serve up daily.

International heros and near-saviours of mankind in my book. consider that the gov't agencies (=secret police) who object most to the publication of sensitive materials are the first to tap phones, spy on the internet, shut down inconvenient internet chatsites and web pages, and snoop into other people's private affairs in general. What goes around comes around, and these people have had it coming for a long, long time.

Killers by proxy? Who is killing whom? Seems to me that game has been going on for millenia, and I don't believe anyone in that game has clean hands. For the Americans, this is at most a minor bump on a very uneven road.

I don't think it is quite that simple. Sure, governments do all sorts of stupid things and routinely lie about their reasons. In principle, exposing some of their machinations is obviously a good thing.

However, all these diplomatic cables were classified "secret". There are heavy penalties in almost any country for exposing such stuff, always have been, and there's a reason for that. You can bet the US government are looking hard for whoever gave this stuff to WL; it must have been someone with a high clearance, violating an oath of secrecy. They will no doubt cause them very serious grief when they find them.

Of course, there's a tendency to over-classification, government minions trying to keep everything secret. That needs to be resisted.

But some things in diplomacy do need to be private. For example, the Chinese and US governments have both taken public stances on various issues, but what they say to each other in private may be different from their public stance. Without some privacy, discussion or negotiation become very difficult. If everything a Chinese official says to the US embassy (or at least everything important enough to be reported to Washington) is going to become public on WL, it becomes very difficult for him to say anything except perhaps to parrot the public Party Line.

Also, some exposures risk lives or wars. Publish information on what the US are getting from Afghan informants, and perhaps the other side will figure out who the informants are. Of course, that gets the informants killed; even a wrong guess can get someone killed. Publish a cable quoting a major Arab leader asking the US to attack Iran, and you might get that leader assassinated or even start yet another mid-East war.

Wikileaks may be up against heavier opposition soon:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-11-30/moscows-bid-to-blow-up-wikileaks-russians-play-by-different-rules/

However, all these diplomatic cables were classified "secret". There are heavy penalties in almost any country for exposing such stuff, always have been, and there's a reason for that. You can bet the US government are looking hard for whoever gave this stuff to WL; it must have been someone with a high clearance, violating an oath of secrecy. They will no doubt cause them very serious grief when they find them.

The gov't already has him, they caught him about 7 months ago (It's the same guy that gave the war documents.) And actually he wasn't a high level or clearance guy. It was a private first class, which I believe is the LOWEST level!

He brought in a CD-RW to his computer in Iraq (where he was stationed) that said Lady Gaga. He erased the songs, downloaded all the files (which, it turned out was accessible to 2.5 million people) and walked away without anyone looking at him twice.

He has been in solitary for awhile and next year he will be court marshalled.

I talked about the whole thing this week in my newspaper reading classes, which was interesting. One thing it showed was the difference between freedom of speech in the US vs. China! I mean, you can't even get to wikileaks here without a VPN! And China Daily has been quite mum despite all the Chinese/N. Korean revelations revealed!

From possibly not the most authoritative of sources, there's no current evidence that anyone was killed as a result of the Afghan Diaries, and approximately 3 million people had clearance to view the "cables".

Pffft, all sorts of new stuff happens when new information arrives, especially if it is NOT doctored information.  This seems like a good thing to me.  And if secrecy or privacy is needed for negotiation, get married.

I think it's true that when all negotiations are public, those negotiations become very complex.  There is indeed a pressure to simplify them BY TELLING THE TRUTH!  A great many other voices will clamor for attention and to mock, but if the truth is the standard, then what really is there available to mock?


"Hey, Kim Jong-Il, we think you're overweight and short!  We don't want to feed your people either!  Suck it, bro!"
"Oh yeah?  Well, I have lots of maybe-weapons that I shall now brandish as if real!"
"Keep sucking it, bro!"
"Yankee devils!  I just want to keep power and control lots of slaves!  Suck this!  *launches nuke*"
"We're all sucking it n--*boom*"

The truth will set you free

(of this mortal coil)

yeah i think the leaks about nkorea was pretty irresponsible

Interesting. Sweden has gone to Interpol and they've issued an international warrant for Assange on "sex crimes": http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/11/assange-interpol/

Quote from: kitano on December 01, 2010, 11:55:25 PM

yeah i think the leaks about nkorea was pretty irresponsible

Why? If they don't think China will really back them, maybe they'll be less confidently aggressive.

I like that people get to know what our "leaders" really think. Would have been nice to have a leaked document a decade ago that said, "Shrub, Saddam ain't got shit [WMDs], so we'd better bomb the crap out of him BEFORE people figure out he's helpless or remember 9/11 was masterminded by Bin Laden."

on the other hand it could make them more desperate and force their hand

most of the stuff i found reassuring because it's kind of what everyone thought anyway, i just thought with a situation so sensitive running the risk of affecting it negatively could be very serious

yeah i think the leaks about nkorea was pretty irresponsible

In what way? Did this disclose anything to the NK regime that it didn't already know?
[Hmmm... I recall an episode of Yes Minister where the foreign secretary has to come to Hacker's office to be informed of the latest international development because his TV isn't working. Maybe NK is run like a 1980's britcom? That would explain a few things]

I submit that we the people are the last to be reliably informed. That's no accident. Knowledge is power, and power to the people.

yeah i think the leaks about nkorea was pretty irresponsible

I totally respect you as a person, but I disagree with your opinion. < Sentence re-framed by Raoul >

As for the topic at hand, I think Julian Assange and Wikileaks did the right thing. My hat's off to them. It's nice to see people with balls left in this world.

I'm just happy to see that I've managed to keep my secret plans for world conquest from getting leaked.  I'd hate to have to unleash my brigades of assault hamsters on innocent civilians . . . until the time is right.
 

Vote Lunatic for World Dictator - or face my furry minions!

russia today. i'm surprised noone is a bit worried by them pissing off these diverse people. i'm still a bit torn because while the principle is good, sometimes diplomacy is needed also

like with russia which is a very powerful country run by a man I personally don't like

< Edits by Raoul. "sometimes diplomacy is needed also." >

General Yo to y'all....
Keep it sweet, Pete. Disagree all you want with someone's opinions...just do so without disparaging the person posting those opinions.

If you wanna get an argument that's all personal and ugly, that's cool.
Just shag on over to Dave's ESL Cafe, hold your nose, and start blasting away!
Not doing this stuff is part of what distinguishes US from...shudder...THEM.

And we just plain ol' ain't gonna become THEM.

Also...might want to show some restraint when talking about other countries and their leaders. You never know...we might just have members from those countries.

NZ way down the WikiLeaks queue

Whistle-blower WikiLeaks has dumped another load of secret American cables on the internet this morning and for the fourth day running, there is nothing from the US Embassy in Wellington.

WikiLeaks claims that 1500 cables from Wellington are included in the 250,000 despatches they have.

Currently they are publishing around 30 a day.

That means the public might read the Wellington US Embassy's assessment of just elected Prime Minister John Key around the time he celebrates his 72nd birthday in 2033.

In 2033 it will be revealed to the world that New Zealand is actually the Power behind the powers. For the first time you will learn that:

* the President of the USA has to rise at 5am each day to receive his orders from the Prime Minister of NZ

* in so doing he is obliged to face South while holding a can of Lion Beer in his right hand

* the 'problem' in Korea at the moment is part of a marketing programme for the Rugby World Cup to be held in NZ next year. You can expect Phase II (Engagement and Annihilation) of the  campaign to start on 11.01.11. The US is not expected to take part as they have real problems with dates like this.

* the recent problems of the Australian cricket team can be traced to someone from NZ Intelligence substituting Marmite for Vegemite at team breakfasts. The side effects (increased physical capacity and virility) led to some pretty bizarre scenes at the Gabba. Were you at the game Kangaroo?

* there is a secret tunnel between No.10 Downing Street and the NZ embassy in London. Through this, special food packs are delivered to the British Govt. In return the British Govt has promised to not favour NZ with another royal visit.

* NZ has offered refugee status to any Canadian accused of being an American.

           

Quote

NZ way down the WikiLeaks queue

...
* NZ has offered refugee status to any Canadian accused of being an American.

Great stuff, but when you quote such things, please include the url.