Poll

Climate change is a clear and present danger. We must act quickly and dramatically to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels.

I agree
19 (79.2%)
I disagree
4 (16.7%)
I don't have an opinion
1 (4.2%)

Total Members Voted: 24

Copenhagen and climate change

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Foscolo

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Copenhagen and climate change
« on: December 09, 2009, 02:14:56 AM »
I thought I'd try this one since there's the summit going on now in Copenhagen. But first I'd like to say the following:

- Climate change deniers are medieval flat-earthers.
- Climate change accepters are in thrall to a Communist conspiracy.

Now I've done that, nobody else needs to bother, and any debate can be relaxed and amicable, OK?
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George

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Re: Copenhagen and climate change
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2009, 02:26:07 AM »
Yes, "climate change" is the wrong subject. "Global Pollution" is the problem that needs to be addressed.
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Eagle

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Re: Copenhagen and climate change
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2009, 04:48:52 AM »
George, I think that global pollution and climate change are inseparable.  Air pollution affects climate.  When the consciousness is changed to concern for environment (debris, air, water, soil and all other forms of pollution), that same consciousness will include concern for climate.  Going green is more than about climate change.

By the way, most Canadians don't support Harper and company (minority government) who work hard to avoid being even remotely responsible for the messes they leave in their trail.  They are the prime reason Canada now wins so many "fossil" awards.
“… whatever reality may be, it will to some extent be shaped by the lens
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A-Train

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Re: Copenhagen and climate change
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2009, 04:50:50 AM »
The " We must act quickly and dramatically " bothers me a bit.  I'd answer 'yes' to that one more because of the threat of terror and propensity of war than becuase of global warming.  BTW: I accept climate change as fact but do not accept the theory that the Earth is round.
"The young do not know enough to be prudent, and therefore attempt the impossible and achieve it, generation after generation.

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Lotus Eater

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Re: Copenhagen and climate change
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2009, 05:42:47 AM »
Estimates of when the ice will completely disappear in the Artic summer range from 2013 to 2050.  As the differences between the temperatures of the Artic and the Equator lessen, weather and rain patterns all over the world are changing. The top layer of permafrost is melting away - releasing enough carbon dioxide to double the amount now currently in the air.  The melting ice caps will make sea levels rise perhaps a metre this century and every century for a thousand years.  Bangladesh will disappear.  Other low-lying parts of the world (including some of the most expensive land in the developed countries) will start to disappear.  Pacific Islands are already seeing this.

http://www.worldviewofglobalwarming.org/pages/rising-seas.html

What do you think the losses from agricultural production, the droughts, the mass migrations and the political instability will do for terrorism and the propensity for war?

Quickly and dramatically doesn't worry me at all.

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Escaped Lunatic

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Re: Copenhagen and climate change
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2009, 05:59:03 AM »
Those who don't 100% agree with global warming being directly linked to human activities get blackballed.  I think this has been proven, even for those who say that it's bad, but not as bad as the party line.  Suppressing facts (like actual temperature measurements) that contravene one's belief system changes those beliefs from science to dogma.  This is completely unacceptable.

Then again, those who totally deny that humans can alter the climate have their heads stuck in the sand (or elsewhere out of the site of daylight).

On the other hand, the increase in global temperatures has slowed and seems to be hitting a plateau.  It is within the realm of possibility that we're on the edge of the next glaciation.  Global cooling was a serious worry in the scientific community in the 50's and 60's.

Make no mistake, the Earth is in a warm spot during an ice age, geologically speaking.  Human activities could actually be saving our collective posteriors from continental ice sheets.  Even if humans had never learned to use fire, the climate situation is unstable.  The two most "natural" options are another round of ice or the planet emerges from the ice age into a much warmer period.  Both of these would have bad consequences for a large percentage of humanity.  There are just too many of us now to flee before glaciers or encroaching oceans.


My personal opinion:

1. We need to kick that fossil fuel habit no matter what.

2. We should reduce global emissions (greenhouse gases and other pollutants) as fast as is economically feasible.

3.  We need to not cripple what's left of the world's economy.  If that breaks down, global treaties won't be worth the paper they are printed on.  We also are going to need a pile of cash for #4 and #5.

4.  We need to be ready to deal with a lot more nuclear power while pushing MUCH harder for improvements in solar and continuing to try to develop economically feasible fusion power.  We need to be ready to try some of the more radical ideas like sea turbines in the gulf stream.  Those cars that use electricity need to get power from somewhere (and electricity is needed if you want hydrogen cars too).  Energy efficiency can help, but vast new sources of electricity will still be needed.

5.  During the above, we need some scientist without political or ideological ties to examine the hard facts to better determine how to best keep the climate stable and as close to it's current state as possible.  This may require drastic reductions in greenhouse gas emissions.  This may require maintaining greenhouse gas emissions at a controlled level.
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Eagle

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Re: Copenhagen and climate change
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2009, 06:27:07 AM »
Well said.  Too bad no one is really listening.  Too many people are polarized with this topic and thus unable to hear anything being said.
“… whatever reality may be, it will to some extent be shaped by the lens
through which we see it.” (James Hollis)

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Escaped Lunatic

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Re: Copenhagen and climate change
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2009, 06:36:43 AM »
Oh my.  Eagle and I agree on something!  It really is the end of the world.   aoaoaoaoao aoaoaoaoao aoaoaoaoao
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A-Train

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Re: Copenhagen and climate change
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2009, 07:23:13 AM »
What do you think the losses from agricultural production, the droughts, the mass migrations and the political instability will do for terrorism and the propensity for war?

No doubt increase it.  My only point was that we have terrorism/war NOW that could have been avoided had we not been using fossil fuels whereas the destruction you mention at least is a bit in the future and can still be avoided.  It always concerns me when we try to do something quickly and dramatically.  As the saying goes:

You can do it quickly.
You can do it cheaply.
You can do it well.

Pick any two.
"The young do not know enough to be prudent, and therefore attempt the impossible and achieve it, generation after generation.

Pearl S. Buck

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George

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Re: Copenhagen and climate change
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2009, 10:12:35 AM »
Quote
George, I think that global pollution and climate change are inseparable.
I realise that, Eagle. What I am saying is that the wrong "title" is being used. No-one could deny global pollution, like they deny global warming.
The myriads of "little" things that can be done, are being ignored. Encourage solar heating in households, allow water tanks to be installed in households, pay going rates for solar power "feedback".
Instead we get the "big" projects...build more dams, build de-sal plants. Anything big a government can put its name on.
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Eagle

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Re: Copenhagen and climate change
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2009, 12:53:20 PM »
Gotcha, George.  Of course, you are right, not surprising for a wise "old" man.
“… whatever reality may be, it will to some extent be shaped by the lens
through which we see it.” (James Hollis)

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kitano

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Re: Copenhagen and climate change
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2009, 04:56:29 PM »
i look at it like, we should have gotten past using fossil fuels anyway. if you look at how much technology in cars has progressed, compare a car from 50 years ago or even 20 years ago with a car now, things like computer controlled brakes etc, that was only in movies when i was a kid. but then we still use the same fuel

the other thing i don't understand is why we don't have more nuclear power stations

even if burning fossil fuels isn't having as significant effect on the climate as some people say, it's still ridiculous that we will rely on them for the rest of this century for lots of other reasons

i remember when i was a kid you got people saying that we should slow down burning fossil fuels and they were generally laughed at and discredited. now the weather has gone crazy and they are like 'hmmm, maybe we should slow down a bit'

if they had taken this attitude 20 years ago we'd probably have good solar cars by now

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Pashley

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Foscolo

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Re: Copenhagen and climate change
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2009, 01:11:47 PM »
As the OP, I'd better put my cards on the table. It's an issue I take very seriously, and think about pretty much every day. There's lots I have to say about this, but I'll keep it to one point:

I don't believe that most people on the political right are necessarily horrified by the idea of using less fuel, but addressing the issue of climate change has become tagged as the project of the left, so a lot those on the right are against it on principle. And fair enough - the reverse is true on other issues.

Turning this into a party political issue was a work of genius by the oil companies and other vested interests who stand to lose financially if we burn less carbon. Giving international aid, discouraging racism, looking after the environment in other ways - these are not really party political issues. It's only the relentless lobbying and media manipulation of Exxon, people in the pay of the the Govt. of Saudi Arabia etc. that have made this a divisive issue.
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Escaped Lunatic

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Re: Copenhagen and climate change
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2009, 02:39:31 PM »
I think the left bears just as much responsibility as the right for over-politicizing these issues.  Nuclear power is one of the fastest ways to deeply cut into CO2 emissions SOx emissions, NOx emissions, etc., but good luck getting that past most environmentalists.
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