Degrees

Would you go to a doctor without a degree?  Would you hire a lawyer without a degree?

 Well, of course not. However, we're not talking about doctors and lawyers here.

 The company I worked for during my last six years in Canada was one of the largest employers in the country. We never hired management from outside the company. The only way to get a foot in the door was to start at the bottom and work your way up. If you demonstrated the skills and qualities necessary, you could expect to work your way up to some very lucrative management positions. In other words, you were judged by your skills and not your education. At the same time my wife was working for a company that routinely hired people for management positions based on their education. Many a night I would hear complaints of the horrors of working with some wetnosed pup who thinks he knows it all because he has a business degree-but in fact doesn't have a clue because he has no practical experience.

 I don't see any reason the same principle can't be applied to ESL. I'm not saying a degree shouldn't count for anything, but I am saying it shouldn't count for everything.

 As for who I want to teach my kids...well, it depends. An educated person to be sure, but if their education consists of a BA in Womens Studies, I'm more likely to lean towards someone who has had teacher training and practical classroom experience whether they have a degree or not.

In general, I would say that for teaching at a uni one should definately have a degree. Someone with great skills may be fine, but do they really know about the world of academia if they have not completed a degree. I am currently teaching business subjects at the uni level and when I give assignments involving writing reports, it is unbelievable the substandard quality that is turned in. I put a lot of the blame on this to the students never having been taught what it takes to write a proper academic paper. Note taking is another skill that the students really need to learn, and someone who has not been in a situation where they have learned these skills themselves cannot really teach them. For these reasons I feel that a uni degree is essential (regardless of the subject) to be able to teach these skills. Also, if you were paying good money in your university days to be taught something, would you not rather have someone teaching you that has the qualifications??
As for teaching in other areas such as K-12 or the language mill, then there are other qualities that I think the person teaching needs. If you are working in the K-12 area then most definately you should have extensive training in working with children as LE has pointed out previously.
As for the mills, the only reason a uni degree would be required would be to show the fact that you can commit yourself to doing something, but is not really relevant to being able to play with your students, as this seems to be the general consensus of a job in the mills from posts that I have read by those of you who have held such positions.

Do you know what is worrying me?  Educators decrying the value of education.

I am not sure if this thread is saying that we should have an education degree or just a degree. 

I am in favour of a degree, but that could also be a college degree rather than just a university degree.  I think if you don't have a teaching degree you should have some sort of training, even TEFL, to give you the basics.

I definitely agree with the notion mentioned above that a Degree in itself is not necessarily any indication of how good a teacher someone will be.  After I graduated from Uni, I definitely didn't have the confidence to come straight out here and teach.  It was only after I completed my CELTA that I then felt ready.

Two teachers from my other school in Wuhan had no Degree, just CELTAs, and from what I saw of their classes they were among the better teachers there.

Having a degree can, at times, even be a hindrance for some teachers, me for example. After spending five years doing essays on Shakespeare and such delightful stuff, which was completely useless when it came to teaching children in China, I would say, without meaning to insult anyone, that it is possible that, for some of the positions in China, people with a Uni degree can be just plain over-qualified (Yes, I hate that word too. Sounds narcissistic in every way) which basically would mean that they would find the job uninspiring and boring which, sadly, would probably lead to a lack in effort on their part. However, I would argue that a certain amount of education beyond the level of high school is, more often than not, something to look for in a teacher.

China is, from what I gather, generally trying to change their attitude towards FT's, probably in an attempt to escape from the mentality that just because you are a native speaker you can teach English. Those boys from Deliverance, Cletus the Slack-jawed Yokel and Newfies are all native speakers, albeit the first is fictional and the second is both fictional and animated.

All in all, I would say that a degree does not necessarily make you a better teacher, however, I would argue that anyone who has taken a degree in something or has been employed in a field which required sharpening the analytical skills, learning to impart, explain and clarify information would probably make a better teacher than someone who decided to suddenly quit his/her McJob and move to China.

It is true that obtaining a degree can be quite expensive, unless you live in a tuition-free country but then again, lots of things are expensive. I would like to continue my studies and write a PhD on the figure of the criminal and crime and punishment in English popular culture and society between 1700-1900. In that way I could get my dream job. Such studies cost money. If I can't find the money, no PhD for me. I will just have to find something else to do.

Obviously the Chinese educational system has far worse glitches to iron out than the question of FT's holding degrees.

Anyway, that's just my two cents worth. And, to just assure everyone, I am not an elitist degree holder. I just happen to live in a country where most people obtain one as it is covered by taxes and you even get a monthly subsidy from the government while you study. 

Do you know what is worrying me?  Educators decrying the value of education.

 

 Ironic, isn't it? But I don't think anyone is decrying the value of an education so much as saying that it's very subjective.

Do we say that about any other profession?  These arguments were run in the west when they started to 'professionalise' teaching.  They were probably said when they started asking Drs to stop also being barbers, requiring mid-wives to have training instead of just being the lady next-door who had been at 5 births.  Etc etc.

Now we accept that qualifications in these areas are important, that they actually have a role. We expect ALL teachers at home to be fully qualified - and then we judge them on their other attributes. Basic entry level into most fields these days are recognised qualifications.  Why not in ESL?

Okay, now the gloves are off.  I am a professional teacher with more than thirty years of experience with ten of those years as a school administrator.  I have lectured at a Canadian university as well.  Am I overqualified to teach in China?  No.  I am a teacher.  It is as plain as that.  It doesn't matter what the system is like or who the students are.  I am a teacher.  At my best, I am not too good for the kids here (including the uni kiddies).  At my worst, I am not good at all for anyone's kids.

My training (B.Ed., B.A., M.Ed.) is part of the reason why I am a damn good teacher.  Of course, I am also a teacher at heart as well as one of training.  Who do I want teaching my grandchildren?  Real teachers.  Most of the FTs I have met would be fired so fast that their butts wouldn't hit the ground until they were two-thirds of the way back to their home countries.  In my honest opinion, the schools here would be much better off to hire local talent rather than some laowai at inflated salaries.  So many bad eggs that it makes it harder to be real colleagues and real teachers here in China.  At the uni, it takes time to have students finally realize that one is a real teacher and that what is happening in the classroom is worth their time and energy.  One has to banish the lousy experiences they have had where all has been fun and games with FTs coming late, leaving early, rarely with a real educational plan. 

No way do I want a doctor who is not professionaly trained.  That said, I know that not all doctors are good doctors.  But, better risk in my mind to go with a real, trained doctor.

'nuff said.

What exactly is a fully qualified ESL teacher?  I would say someone with an MA in TESOL.  Anything less than that should be unacceptable.  Teaching 8th grade Intro to Algebra in California is about as relevant to teaching ESL in China as a degree in criminal justice.  Luckily, the majority of teachers in China aren't really teaching ESL, they're teaching oral English.  I think there is a big difference.  Being a good teacher is still important, but you don't need a teaching degree for that.  And, based on a lot of the teachers I've had, a degree and teaching experience are the two main ingredients to make a terrible teacher. 

Now, hold on, how does that make sense? No degree and no experience makes for a good teacher? In what warped educational system does that make sense? So we are back to square one: if English is your native tongue, then you are, obviously, qualified to teach oral English? One may not be a better teacher if one has a degree but I fail to comprehend how it is possible to become a worse teacher by acquiring a degree.

It was a joke.

My bad. Irony in written form shouldn't be allowed. 

For many jobs in China it really doesn't matter. Sometimes the job is not 'Teacher' it's 'Foreigner' and most of us do not need a degree to do that job.

I'm gonna cop out and take a different tack:

Beyond perhaps a security check with home countries to screen criminals and peds out, I think it would be a disaster for China to raise their standards.  Despite the increasing torrent of foreigners coming here, there is still a DESPERATE shortage of native English speakers in China.

And sorry, but a Chinese teacher just can't speak English the way we can.

If I ran a school, I'd NEVER let a foreigner teach grammar.  Chinese with oodles of training can teach that, explaining things in Chinese, and do it at a fraction of our asking price.  Our value at the price is oral English, as it's REALLY SPOKEN.

All deference to my fellow members who are more highly trained than I (most of you, truth be told), but we make MOUNTAINS of money by local standards.