Nelson Mandela

Quote from: kitano on December 08, 2013, 05:50:28 PM

I think EG does have a point, even if he isn't making it very well. Africa's problems are massive and there is this idea pushed that nice old people like Mandela are the answer whereas in reality it doesn't change anything, when he was in charge he ended up as a stooge for NATO (the organisation, not the guy who posts on here) and didn't manage to affect much

He did affect a lot in SA when he was a young man, but that was 'terrorism' so it's barely mentioned in the western narrative

In-FUCKING-credible!

You think Hugo Chávez was a great leader and Nelson Mandela was a terrorist. How do you say in your language "bass-ackwards"?

Hate to think what your thoughts are on Mahatma Gandhi or even Jesus Christ

Nelson Mandela WAS a terrorist, he killed people, had people killed, blew shit up etc to disrupt and terrify the regime. Terrorists aren't always in the wrong, what is the difference between a terrorist, a soldier, and a criminal etc etc. but he was doing that.

When he actually was leader he didn't really do anything. He was unquestionably a great figure in the struggle against apartheid in Africa who inspired people in similar struggles around the world, but after they won?

What I'm trying to get at is how he is portrayed in the same way as the D***i L**a as some incredibly wise old woman is unrepresentative of what he stood for and who he was. It's a bit like you have to have your balls cut off to be a hero

Ok...now all sit down and count to ten...this is a tribute thread. Not a thread on politics and other iffy things. Before long, someone is going to say something nasty and then someone will make a reference to something else nasty and then it will be misconstrued for something racial and then the Saloon becomes the Spoon...so, for the benefit of everyone, stick to tribute messages. If any member did or does not like Nelson Mandela, there is a BS Wrestling Pit. Please direct discussions about apartheid, Mandela, other leaders and comparisons to them, to that designated area.

Nelson Mandela was political 'and other iffy things'

We don't have to talk like children.

Well, true. However, I was trying to avoid the rather strong terminology bandied about like other posters. And I can see that my advice meant nothing. Instead of beginning another pointless argument about how one should address the previous point made, namely that this is a thread for people who would like to express how sad they feel at the passing of Mr. Mandela and not for urinating all over his memory. We are not, as you so rightly point out, not children and therefore should all be able to show a modicum of propriety and common decency. If members did not like the man, epress those opinions in another thread in another room. Otherwise, this thread will degenerate into mere anger and insults bandied about. Then some members will get really angry and then the thread will be locked. So, as we are not children, let us all act like the adults we are and reserve a thread meant for people who want to pay their respects to a departed politician for just that.

It isn't a pointless argument Eric

It's a thread about Nelson Mandela, a very important man who just passed away, we are discussing him. I think that it is 'urinating' on his memory to make out like he was the dad from The Lion King, he was an important man in his day, not fucking Princess Diana

I think the real problem in this thread is getting lost here. Talking about Mandela as a man is one thing. For sure he was a man, a real man, a political man, who did a lot for his country and sure he didn't accomplish it all by being some sort of freedom fighting Santa Claus. However --

I took real issue with the "Pfft, Apartheid. Black natives have screwed up Africa worse than the whites ever did" post, which was not only off-topic, but really, really offensive.

I don't think this is the place for that discussion at. all. Not this thread, not this board. I only asked EG to clarify because I was hoping that was not what he meant. But on second thought, I don't even want to go there with any sort of back and forth about it. EG can edit his comments if he wants to clarify.

So discuss Nelson Mandela as a man all you want, but keep it respectful. And we're not having a discussion about the merits of Apartheid or whether or not Africa was better off when white people were running the show. We're just not. If it goes in that direction, I'll lock it down, end of story.

It isn't a pointless argument Eric

It's a thread about Nelson Mandela, a very important man who just passed away, we are discussing him. I think that it is 'urinating' on his memory to make out like he was the dad from The Lion King, he was an important man in his day, not fucking Princess Diana

Do what you will, Kitano. As far as I am concerned, the man was the primary force in ending Apartheid. However, I leave you and other posters to throw words like "terrorist" around. I should know better, politics and religion, nothing good ever comes from discussing them. So pace, I will stay clear of this thread. 

I think I see what is happening here.Of course Mandela was my hero when I was a kid,standing up to the government,surviving imprisonment and not giving in to his captors etc etc.The problem is,as has been said here,he was a MAN not Santa and was on one particular side of a political issue.Therefore there have to be people who condemn acts of violence that he carried out in the name of his cause.The trouble is that there is a tendency,when someone of this stature dies,to deify him and have everyone turn out to worship him,regardless of things they thought about him and even said/wrote about him when he was alive.
I saw this happen in Israel when Rabin was assassinated,and one political camp tried to appropriate and deify him,while the other side detracted from his achievements.I think this kind of discussion is legitimate and even necessary.It doesn't have to be abusive neither does it need to be simplistic.People and causes are often not just black and white (pun intended).
These are complex issues and we can have an adult and dignified discussion about them can't we?

No one is born hating another
person because of the colour of
his skin, or his background, or his
religion. People must learn to hate,
and if they can learn to hate, they can be
taught to love, for love comes more naturally
to the human heart that its opposite.
- Nelson Mandela

Anyone that says stuff like this is good in my book.

when Nelson Mandela was released after 27 years in prison, one of the first questions he asked was: "Is Sir Donald Bradman still alive?"

Before I started posting yesterday I was about to just make a post putting my hands up and say 'fair dos'
It's the old fighting a midget analogy. You need much more skill than I have to win without making everyone hate you

I was getting very annoyed with reading and watching the news and he was being portrayed as some kind of Lady Diana. I think what gets me is that he became this liberal icon and justification for liberalism, he was an African Nationalist who was allied with Communists, in the 60s.
He was a great man, but he didn't become a great man by being nice. He started as a lawyer, tried to be a liberal and make a change within the system, he was persecuted mercilessly, he gave up on the system and went to what was then the extreme.
After apartheid he became this figurehead of how the system actually did work, we fixed it while you were in prison.

ah what's the point

when Nelson Mandela was released after 27 years in prison, one of the first questions he asked was: "Is Sir Donald Bradman still alive?"

I heard when he got out of jail he asked the limo driver to put on the radio and Roxette were playing so he asked him to turn around and take him back to jail

Atlantic Wire is carrying the service live. The video stream will require a VPN, though. It's just getting started and should go for at least 4 hours.

Here's the link: http://www.thewire.com/global/2013/12/liveblog-nelson-mandela-memorial-service/355953/

 bhbhbhbhbhm  nice one. 

Atlantic Wire is carrying the service live. The video stream will require a Very Passable Nicety, though. It's just getting started and should go for at least 4 hours.

Here's the link: http://www.thewire.com/global/2013/12/liveblog-nelson-mandela-memorial-service/355953/