After 7 years in Beijing I would like to find another city to live in...

Back again guys. Was out of it for awhile. Thanks for the feedback.
Lately, still have the same feelings and now that my boss is being a dick and I truly am sick of Beijing for its phucked up weather, traffic, population etc. I want to really explore more parts of China. However, I am also considering out countries in southern asia.

i have been to Dalian, qingdao, yantai, wei hai, fuzhou and kunming basically.
I don't think Dong bei suits me well. Not that I dislike cold but I think what i really need most other than work is:
1. A place to go fishing away from any city
2. Mountains
3. Waters
4. Some chance of getting into dark skies as I am really into astronomy.

Beijing has way too many foreigner, which phucks up the market for many of us old timers and basically I find it hard to make friends here because I am about twice their ages.

So, i hang with the locals mostly but have a few foreign friends in my hood. And I had moved out of the city center last year. It was a great choice.

So I am looking for more information from other cities.

1. Work
2. House Prices
3. Environment
4. Types of work available
5. The above mentioned chances of my activities(out doors type of guy
6. Standard rate of pay per hour
7. add anything you wish
8. of course girls... .appreciated.

thanks guys glad to be back.

Did you like Kunming? I lived there for 5 years before moving to Beijing (basically for the money) and think it has everything you're looking for. The pay there is not particularly high and costs there, especially housing costs, are rising, but for everything else it is perfect, especially outdoors stuff -- some the best mountains (imo) in China, the Mekong River. It also has an excellent chilled out local culture, good music and art scene, and the expats are a ... special bunch. Totally different from Beijing.

To answer your specific questions ...

1. Teaching. Do you want to teach? That is pretty much all you can do in KM unless you're a talented performer. I know quite a few foreigners who make their livings as musicians/DJs. There are some NGOs based in Kunming but you'd have a better chance of winning the lottery than getting one of those jobs.
2. Housing should run you around 1000RMB/month, more or less. Back in 2005 I paid 400rmb a month for a 1 bedroom 1 bath but from what I understand this is now impossible.
3. Environment is lovely, blue skies, nice weather year round.
4. See above
5. Also see above ... loads of opportunities for rock climbing, hiking, rafting, biking. Kunming is perfect for people who love the outdoors.
6. I think Kunming is still hovering around 100-150rmb/hr for part time teaching work. Monthly salaries probably average at about 5000rmb/month or just under for full time teaching jobs. Going from Beijing to just about anywhere you're going to have to deal with lower salaries. Cost of living is lower there but, imo, salaries in Kunming have not kept up with inflation. I sent out a few resumes a few months ago thinking our family might move back (husband is a Yunnan native) but the idea of working for like 1/3rd of my Beijing salary was really depressing. So be prepared for that if you consider KM.
7. Kunming has Kunminghua, quite possibly the best dialect in China.
8. I think the girls are ok? I'm a girl myself so not the best judge of those things. My male friends never complained. They're much less sophisticated than Beijing girls though. Maybe that's a good thing?

1. A place to go fishing away from any city
2. Mountains
3. Waters
4. Some chance of getting into dark skies as I am really into astronomy.

Sounds like T to me. Mountains galore, small population so skies should be dark, and aren't telescope usually put atop mountains because that gives less air in the way? Or neighboring areas? Yunnan or Sichuan? You said you'd been to Kunming. Did you like it?

The Guilin area has pretty scenery, lots of cycling, and an intensive rock-climbing scene, but not what I think of as real mountains, nothing with a tree line or year-round snow, I'm told salaries there are generally low, but there might be exceptions.

I was in KM for about 1 day on my way to li jiang. I liked it but did not get any chance to check out anything.

I did like the fact that it was near places such as Dali and can be added to the list.

I think what I have to do is keep doing my research and add a new part to it which is going to see places.


Beijing has only a few advantages. Plenty of work, good salaries and lots of good foreign places and foods. But, that is not enough to offset the fact that it is an outdoorsman nightmare. Nothing but jungles of concrete legos(housing) and parks that look as dry as the american southwest(but not nearly as pretty).

What made you move from yunnan to beijing? what is salary?

What made you move from yunnan to beijing? what is salary?

At the time my son was 5 months old and I my husband and I really wanted to come up here, work for a few years, and save up enough money to buy an apartment. We never could save anything on the salaries in KM, although we did ok. Here I've never worked for less than 12k a month and when we first moved here I was making 18k a month at a dotcom startup. In Kunming I'd started up my own school with a partner and was taking home about 5k a month, so when I got that offer we were pretty much sold. At the time it seemed like a no brainer, and, understand, we'd never lived outside of Yunnan so we thought some change might be good. I think having a family makes all the difference. Now we have two kids and while I am reasonably certain we wouldn't starve if we moved back to KM, even if we had to live off 5k a month, we'd never save anything. Here we can put about 5k in the bank a month. Even not factoring in the apartment we've needed that safety net in the past since with the kids you certain expenses you didn't plan on. Quite a few people I know from Kunming have ended up in Beijing, some of them because of music, some of them because they wanted to persue bigger and better things. But if you're looking to downsize rather than upsize, I think Kunming is perfect.

Every year around contract renewal time we go through a "should we go back or not" but every year money wins out. We might have actually gone back this year had my parents not decided to retire from their jobs in the States and come out to Beijing and teach. Kunming is the only city that feels like home to me in China. We visit every year, since I still have relatives there and of my long time friends, expat and Chinese, are there. It is the sort of place that has a real pull for some people.

KM vs Beijing
With money aside and some obvious things the I think may not be so easily gotten there in KM. I dont konw for sure.

What major differences do you see between the 2 cities?

I care less about money most of the time, hence I only work 10-20 hours a week and that pays for my life in Beijing easily. I would probably be a bit shocked by the pay difference , per hour, but if the environment has what i want(mountains, water, fresh air, dark skies at night) then I think it would be worth it. Even for a year or so.

I'm not in the position to care for another person, especially a child, but certainly that would motivate anyone to seek a higher salary.

I am basically free to do what I want, unless my gf is too unhappy about it(doesn't happen much) so I think that while I am still relatively young. i should just go out and explore.

isn't that what we humans like to do anyway?

KM vs Beijing
With money aside and some obvious things the I think may not be so easily gotten there in KM. I dont konw for sure.

What major differences do you see between the 2 cities?

Some of the differences are just what you'd expect going from a 2nd tier to a 1st tier city. Beijing is much larger and more crowded, obviously. More traffic. There is more stuff available here, that's true. It is more expensive too. Typical 1st tier  vs. 2nd tier differences. 

But I think the major differences are the local culture. Kunming is a Southwestern city that is about as far as you can get from Beijing outside of T'bet and XJ. As a result, where Beijing tends to be uptight and by the book, Kunming is relatively relaxed. People in KM are not particularly nationalistic compared to the rest of the country and have a huge cynical streak when it comes to the government. It is a border area with large minority populations and some minority communities are innately a bit distrustful of the Han minority. Which is kind of cool. Kunming is a city full of artists and musicians, nomads and hippies. Lots of free spirits there. Of course you see this here too but you'd expect it in a big city like Beijing, where you can find all types. Kunming reminds me a bit of Portland or Austin, one of those cities that sort of take pride in being different.

Physically Kunming is also a lot greener than Beijing. More trees, less pollution, better weather, better day trips and getaways. You mentioned Dali but pretty much no matter which direction you go from Kunming you have escapes that are equal, if not better, than Dali. There's lots of pristine countryside, loads to explore. Living in Kunming for 5 years almost every vacation I took was within the province, there was just SO much to see. You've got Dali and Lijiang and Zhongdian/Shangrila, which are standard, and but then you've also got places like Tengchong, Baoshan, Jianshui, Mile, Ruili, Mangshi, Jinghong, Yuanyang ... the possibilities for travel are just endless. You just don't have that in Beijing. It is nice being at the center of things, there are trains everywhere from here, but we don't have any real nice places we can pop down to for a weekend just to get away. Back in KM we'd decide on a Friday night we wanted to go to Dali for the weekend and could be back by work on Monday.

I definitely think working in a 2nd tier city for less pay is worth it if you can afford it. I have grown to like a lot about Beijing but I will always miss Kunming and consider it my true home in China. 2nd tier cities have a lot to offer especially if you're not particularly weighted down by financial obligations. I've been to a lot of other 2nd tier cities but Kunming is the only one I'd personally really consider moving back to if it ever became possible but people love different cities for different reasons.

@local Dialect:
Seems then your reasons for coming to Beijing was purely financial. Dui, bu dui?

It is unlike me to be walking on eggshells about making choices about work and living.
But it seems now I am a bit nervous about giving up my comfy little nest egg here in BJ and rolling out and charter places i never been to.

When I was in KM, for the so short time, i did not see any laowai. But as i said, it was short and stayed in most bcs I was tired and it rained.

You said there are hippies there. and musicians? I am a guitarist and need to be able to jam with people like myself.  I also teach guitar and think that has always been interesting and a little income on the side.

Now, what i need to do is figure out what to do with my visa. Because I have a residence permit which of course is sponsored by some company which I do not wish to work for anymore. They have always done me right, however, i have chased money for 8 years and it didn't bring me happiness.

So if i do not find a sponsor that allows me freedom. Then of course I have to change the visa. But that's for another thread. I'll post on this in a moment.

KM sounds good and I will have to find more info about it and make a trip there.

thanks

Tuco, yes, purely financial. The decision to stay is also purely financial, although with 2 kids we also considered the opportunities for a decent education in both cities, as well as the standard of healthcare in both cities. These both go back to finances though I suppose. 

There are loads of foreigners in KM you just have to know where they are. The majority live in Wuhua, near Yunnan U. and Yunnan Normal although some also live in the north part of town. Most people just stopping through won't make it all the way down to the uni area, since it is pretty far away from the train station/airport, so it is easy to get the impression that there aren't many foreigners in KM. In reality, there are quite a few. Kunming is not a huge city by Chinese standards, about 5 million people when all is said and done, but for a city its size the amount for foreigners is pretty high.

The music scene in Kunming is excellent for a small town. For foreigners that are into music there are lots of opportunities to get involved -- jam nights, foreign bands that do gigs, Chinese musicians looking to collaborate. There's also a good art scene there too.  A good deal of Kunming's expats started off as backpackers and decided the place was chill and they wanted to stick around, so there are quite a few relatively aimless people who have made their home in KM too, just doing odds and ends and this and that. The vibe is good. It is kind of hard to be so relaxed in Beijing, as just getting by in this city takes some effort.

I have gone through the stages of "used to it", to "phuck that" and back and forth. I think I wanna try something new. Seems KM is really good.

Do ya have any links for KM laowai like a forum? I'd like to talk more to others too. The more info the better.

I have gone through the stages of "used to it", to "phuck that" and back and forth. I think I wanna try something new. Seems KM is really good.

Do ya have any links for KM laowai like a forum? I'd like to talk more to others too. The more info the better.

Try http://www.gokunming.com/en/ .

cool. got to check this out. thanks for all the help.

what other places have you visited?

Kunming is fabulous.

Jobs suck there.

Used to go a lot due to ... business there. But I had long decided that I would never ever teach English there since the conditions, pay and so on sucked. Too many people want to go there due to the fact it IS wonderful, climate and food, and so on, so the competition, especially with idiot backpackers and the like, means that things are not salubrious to people who want real English teaching jobs.

Great place if you have some other income or salary, or independant circumstances.

There is no ideal place. Compromise is always a necessity.