Sino-American Denver Foreign Language School

Hello,

I'm looking for some info regarding the Sino-American Denver Foreign Language School in Changchun.

I've been finding information on this place hard to come by, apart from what's been provided by the school itself. Can anyone help?

I've only found one review on them. It was an endorsement...but it was on The Greasy Spoon, so no way to know how reliable it is. A lot of innocent-looking posts are in fact plants by hired guns working for the school in question.

They try that here, too...

I live in that neck of the woods.  I'm not there right now.  I've never heard of the school.  My considered opinion is that it is hard to find schools who can issue real working papers in Changchun, but, I've never heard of the school so I don't know what they can actually do.

Historically it has been very, very difficult to find decent, reasonably honest schools in Changchun. I never found one meself...

We can at least tell you about the city itself. 'Shroomy is there now, and I've got a review in the Library if you're interested.

And, if you've got the quals to work at a Uni, I do believe the Uni is hiring.  You can PM me for an email.  They will get the proper papers if you take a one year contract.  It seems they are being weird about 6 month contracts.

And, I second what RD says.  The last guy from the Saloon who turned up there looking for a job, who didn't have quals, took about 3 weeks to find one.  Lots of offers, but lots of bad contracts.

Thanks to you both for the replies.

Yeah, unfortunately I don't hold a degree so I expect i'd be overlooked for any University post.
Infact i'm pretty fresh from my teacher training course and am searching for my first ever EFL teaching job, so there's no bloody chance. I know i'll be having to set my sights pretty low when it comes to finding a decent employer.

I've had some correspondence with this school and they've expressed a lot of interest (which sets alarm bells ringing as I know they're aware of my lack of experience), and they are looking to set up an interview with me over the phone.

I've been advised elsewhere that for someone in my situation, the best option is to travel to China on a tourist visa, hand out C.V's and basically ask around. I'd obviously feel more assured to actually secure a job before setting off from England though, as the thought of bluffing it round China with a rapidly depleting source of money is quite a scary one.

Raoul, you mentioned that Changchun has a reputation of housing some less than honest schools.
I'm not really pinning my hopes on finding work in any particular area, it's just that this Sino-American Denver school showed some interest in me.
Are there areas that you'd suggest I could concentrate my search around? Or is it just pot luck for someone who's completely new to it all?

Sorry to be rambling on about this but I do have one other query I hope one of you could advise me about:  The Working(Z)Visa.  Is it usual practice for a school to ask a new employee to enter China on a tourist visa, with the intention of exchanging it for the correct Work visa? Or should I be ensuring that I come to China with a Z Visa in my hand?

Again, sorry for the lengthy post, just trying to avoid any of the sinister operators i've read so much about. (the stories i've seen are making Zimbabwe seem like a safer option)

c.m - you need to read the 'hard rain is gonna fall' thread.  Coming to China on a tourist visa is getting to be way more difficult, and having that tourist visa changed to a z visa and residency permit is exceptionally difficult.

Reputable places will not ask you to come on a tourist visa.  They will send you a letter of invitation which you then take to your local Embassy (with medical certificate etc) and get the z visa.

It used to be quite common, especially in Jilin Province, to enter on a tourist visa and get it changed to a Z.  That is probably no longer possible.  If this is what the school is asking you to do, then walk away, fast.  It means they can't get you a Z.  I would not come to China without a Z visa securely fastened in your passport.

Has the SADFLS offered you a look at their contract?  That should answer most of your questions.  Once you see the details, or lack thereof, you'll have the answer.  You have every right to ask to see the contract before you'll speak to them again.  They can fax, email, what-have-you.  Show it to the gang here for instant analysis.

I know another FT who came to Changchun this year with no degree and no experience.  He/she kissed a lot of frogs before finding a very minor prince who could at least produce a work permit.  It doesn't seem to be a fertile hunting ground.

I am happy at the Uni, but I have a special deal with them and a degree.

Get the contract from the school if you have read about Changchun and still want to go there; and keep looking online or ask here for help finding a job somewhere else - with a few details of what you're looking for: weather, kids or adults, public or private school, size of city, you get the idea.

I'd second the advice to hold out for a Z Visa and Residence Permit. What you really want is the Permit; I'm honestly not sure if you can now start with that from outside China or not. But it's always been risky enough to upgrade an L (turista) visa to a Residence Permit; in today's climate it could be a recipe for disaster. Settle for nothing less than a Z before coming over!

Note that a lot of schools LOVE to have you come over on an L visa...typically obtained at your expense. It costs schools money to get you a Residence Permit...not a lot, but something. So, if you come with an L, they can make sure that you show up (admittedly a serious risk) and that they like you and that they didn't already hire too many teachers(admittedly a serious risk) before they invest the money in your documents. As long as you only have the L, it's easier for them to turn you away empty-handed at their door. THIS REALLY DOES HAPPEN!!! More often than ya might think...

So...how to do all this?

First: recognize that you can't possibly 100% be sure of avoiding a bad teaching experience. You can stack the odds a bit more in your favor, but nothing is foolproof. THE ODDS OF YOU HAVING SOME KIND OF DISPUTE OR PROBLEM WITH A TEACHING JOB IN CHINA ARE QUITE HIGH INDEED. There's always a risk in taking a job, especially in a foreign country...and very especially in a country whose culture is extremely different from your own country's.

This doesn't mean that you can't work it out (that happens sometimes) or that you will be physically or legally abused (that happens sometimes, too) or that you will be robbed by your employer (that happens rather a lot, unfortunately). It just means that the chances of sooner or later meeting some kind of unpleasantness are pretty good.

Then:

1) Spend a lot of time browsing around this website. There are vast stores of good info somewhere under all the cow pies here.   This process should include getting at least a basic knowledge of China's regions- geography, climate, relative wealth, and so on. If you don't see what you need, ask us!

2) Decide which cities/regions would be acceptable places for you to live. If you want, you can even create further rankings within your list. Again, there's help available here from both our posts, and the people who wrote them.

3) Decide what level of salary is the absolute minimum for you; can't hurt to be a little liberal in this judgment if you don't know much about life here yet. General rule- don't take anything under 4000 RMB plus a paid apartment in public schools/universities or in smaller cities and poorer areas; don't take anything under 5500 RMB plus a paid apartment in private schools or richer areas.

4) Scan the job listings for jobs that match your criteria...or at least come very close. Read them carefully...eliminate any jobs that come from a recruiter/agency rather than the schools themselves. You don't want to go there. Apply to the ones you have left. New jobs come up all the time, so you should repeat this step often.

5) When you get a response, research the school. Ask around. Search online for teacher reviews. Best of all, ask the responding schools to give you some e-mail addresses of some FORMER (not current!) teachers...current employees may have either positive or negative incentives to not tell you the full truth. If a school is unable or unwilling to provide these, taking the job means a risk that NO teachers have ever left them on good terms...
But ANY teacher review should be taken with a grain of salt. For one thing, some bad reviews are written by maniacs (and there are many of those here...) out for revenge, and some good reviews can be written by hired guns out to boost teacher recruiting and/or cover over a bad history. Also, conditions in a school can change in the blink of an eye, especially when there's been a change of ownership or management. However, when there are multiple reviews a decided drift in one direction or another can be a decent indicator.
There aren't always multiple reviews. There aren't always even one. There are ZILLIONS of schools in China; many of them have never been reviewed publicly. Just get what info you can...

6) If the research looks OK, ask to see the exact contract terms...preferably the contract itself. If you don't like some terms in the deal, try negotiating...sometimes it works. Note, though, that many public schools and universities have little or no legal leverage to negotiate salaries that are fixed by provincial Education Bureaus; negotiation here will have to be in on-duty-hour load or other parts of the compensation package.

7) If everything looks good, contact the school and tell them you accept the position. Ask them to send you 2 copies of a signed/stamped contract (sign one copy and send it back to the school) and the documents needed to get you either a Z Visa or a Residence Permit.

8: Start packin'. You're off to China!
God help you.

A final note...if it any time you feel pushed, deceived, or otherwise uncomfortable at any stage in the process above, you have the right to immediately cease all contact should you so choose, up to the point where both sides have signed the contract. (The school must also put its official seal on the contract!)
DON'T BE IN TOO BIG A RUSH TO COME HERE. Get a job with a reasonable chance of success FIRST...THEN come to China.

I may put a copy of this up in the Library...which is a great place to start looking for more information!

I worked here for 13 months and was generally satisfied. I'll write up a review within a week, but it is a legit place to work and they had us all on the right kids of visas with FEC's in hand.

EDIT: just noticed when the request for info was posted...probably doesn't matter anymore, but I'll still write up my "review".

Please do!
I wish more folks would review their past and present employers, good and bad. The info can really help a lot of folks...

Hi 
A newbie here, with the same school interested in me but being pretty odd- the contract they sent is written in bad English- as if posted Chinese into Google translate line by line. very difficult to communicate with their representative who is supposedly speaks English and my Chinese is not enough for a through communication (when we talked on the phone she didnt understand 90% of what i asked). What i COULD make of the contract is that it is very restrictive and all in favor of the employer , again i can not make much of it and when i asked for clarification it was explained in the same grammar , in which the contact was "written".
should i conclude thus that this is the sort of communication i shall get there all the time? if so , it is rather frightening.
where can i read the review posted by el macho about this school?

Hi annar. Unfortunately 'shroomy is no longer with us   and El Macho is no longer in Changchun  . Jennifer who no longer posts here works at the school. I have been in town for 3 years so I know a thing or two about the place. Let me know who else from Changchun you talk to.

When I have more time, I can give better details. The place has two locations and its not too bad, though they are small. They have a few foreign teachers who seem content and of course they've also had those who dispised the place. The school is mostly kinder aged so if you do the dancing monkey well, no problem. No frills, no chills - middle of the road.

There are many better schools both public and private. I'd rather hit EF first, at least you could hone your skills. I am leaving my school but not because its a bad place. I prefer teaching writing, poetry and literature to older kids/uni level. Ours is mostly geared towards under 10 and is the oldest and biggest running private school in Changchun. Pay is relativaly high, on time and lots of social activity. Right now we have 21 foreign teachers. Let me know what they offer, I've seen a few of theirs before.

Good luck

Hi,
Many thanks for the information , i am a novice to all this and still considering whether i should go for the china thing or not. I used to work with Chinese providers in a company before and all i have learned about contract negotiation is that the old Hebrew proverb "respect him and suspect him" proved to be right. I read the Changchun thread and got scared by the running water issues and the weather.They basically offer 6000 rmb and 1 day off. they also want me to give up on the day off before vacations so i "wouldnt miss the lesson" and that will not be considered overtime. another thing that bothered me is that they don't allow be , by the contract to give any private lessons to nobody, only through them. I can  be fired at any moment without further notice and i get 1 month off during the summer in which i am not allowed to work elsewhere but will get no paycheck and will have 1000 rmb  allowance (which from my traveling in china i know is not much).

Hi,
Many thanks for the information , i am a novice to all this and still considering whether i should go for the china thing or not. I used to work with Chinese providers in a company before and all i have learned about contract negotiation is that the old Hebrew proverb "respect him and suspect him" proved to be right. I read the Changchun thread and got scared by the running water issues and the weather.They basically offer 6000 rmb and 1 day off. they also want me to give up on the day off before vacations so i "wouldnt miss the lesson" and that will not be considered overtime. another thing that bothered me is that they don't allow be , by the contract to give any private lessons to nobody, only through them. I can  be fired at any moment without further notice and i get 1 month off during the summer in which i am not allowed to work elsewhere but will get no paycheck and will have 1000 rmb  allowance (which from my traveling in china i know is not much).

Nothing you have said in this post inspires me.

Sounds like you will be squeezed for all your worth.

As to the school not allowing you to teach outside, my university said the same thing. And then the Dean knocked on my door and said he had extra work if I wanted some extra cash

Seems to me that they can be quite relaxed about this..... but maybe that is just here.

1000 RMB is not enough to do anything for a month. Even staying at home and eating would be tricky.