Raoul's China Saloon (V5.0) Beta
The Bar Room => The BS-Wrestling Pit => Topic started by: Calach Pfeffer on April 09, 2014, 11:36:22 PM
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Either I don't get out enough or I've stopped listening, but I don't hear it that much anymore. I saw this today:
Laowai: the old furriner (http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=11626)
Lǎowài 老外 (lit., "old foreign") is a ubiquitous term for a certain type of person from abroad in China, and dictionaries almost invariably gloss it as "foreigner". Yet the subtleties and nuances of the term seem almost endless, and they can sometimes lead to misunderstandings and hurt feelings. To try to get a handle on this colloquial expression, I asked a number of laowai who have had long experience in China what they thought of this appellation that they had doubtless been called hundreds of times and some Chinese friends who most likely had had occasion to employ that designation themselves.
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Interdasting.
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Rarely heard it in Hangzhou, still get it in the smaller cities
That article is very optimistic imo. The word itself may not have a discriminatory meaning, but it's usually shouted by a child or an idiot, I've never heard it used in a positive context
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I heard it enough in 3rd tier cities to really annoy me. Heard it in Hangzhou enough to annoy me as well (down around West Lake when the tourists are in town on weekends and holidays.
In Beijing, I hear it rarely, for which I am thankful.
One of the commentators in the comments is David Moser who defended it as non-offensive. He's a nice enough guy, but has spent much of his China career in Beijing and, I think, never had to live through the "laowai" cacophony of life in a second or third tier city.
Also, my personal experience, which I have noted a number of times to my Chinese friends, and which contradicts some of the comments in that article ... I have only ONCE heard a child call me "laowai." EVER. It's always "waiguoren". And it's happened so many times I have made a note of it...which has led me to conclude "laowai" is a learned/used term as they get older here.
Also, as a few people noted in the comments, their Chinese friends will slip, and use it, and then self-correct indicating they either realize it can have a slightly pejorative meaning, or they are aware that many laowai don't like being called laowai.
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Wow old34, I hear it from kids (5-10 y-o) almost as much as adults. What's funny was that the shock was so high in Changchun and surroundings that by the time the people realized what I was, I was no longer in earshot of hearing them call me laowai. They were still busy staring
aoaoaoaoao
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My experience is much like old34's except that I don't care. For me, it just gives me information about the speaker but I'm a minority in my home country, so that may effect how I view these things. I rarely hear it from children. Migrant workers sometimes. It's certainly less common that it was 5-10 years ago.
People often use it when talking to each other. Like receiving a phone call and telling the other person the are with a laowai but not directly to me.
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Where I grew up (I don't know if it's still the case) everyone used to call the Chinese restaurant the 'Chinkies', that's a bit how I view 'Laowai'
Like when you usually hear 'laowai' it's not 'hateful' or anything, people didn't have anything against the Chinese, and there wasn't any anti-Chinese feeling behind it, it definitely wasn't a curse word, but still...
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Agree with Kitano it's like Chinkies.The trouble with being over sensitive is it gets complicated like not being allowed to use the N word in the US these days (how on earth do they manage in China hearing that same sounding word the Chinese use all the time?)
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It's only pejorative if it's said and taken as such. If it's just an adjective, meh
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By the way, a few of the responses talk about it being a term for 'white' people.
It isn't.
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As I've gone, over the years, from being the center of immediate attention to being relatively ignored on the street, hearing people comment on my presence has fallen off dramatically, which seems like a good thing in some ways. Plausibly, there is now a more nuanced notion of what a nearby non-Chinese can be. Or maybe the "laowai" category still sits in the mind and just isn't blurted out as much any more. I don't know. Is it on it's way to being a non-issue? Or did I just forget?
It's been a while, but I recalled having deans use it. Once or twice while I was in the room, they'd use "women laowai" when talking to other administrators about their foreign staff. It sounded like hick talk, but who knows?
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By the way, a few of the responses talk about it being a term for 'white' people.
It isn't.
True. But if the person isn't white they're likely to be called Heiren 黑人 instead. It's understandable why some would think Laowai means white person.
That said, I don't see any response in this thread that mentions it being a term for a white person.
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By the way, a few of the responses talk about it being a term for 'white' people.
It isn't.
I wondered about that. One of the commenters said "I'm curious about the results of this particular query, as I normally see lǎowài 老外 as almost only ever used when referring to those of European or Middle Eastern descent. Black people are usually something else." I don't know about laowai only used for white people. But I have, but probably literally only once or twice, heard hei ren used for people I know when the speaker could have said laowai.
Then again, hei ren doesn't preclude laowai, so.... /derp
eta: is "laowai" a puzzling term just because we, even now, aren't that used to being singled out as "that guy, over there, who's different from us"?
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By the way, a few of the responses talk about it being a term for 'white' people.
It isn't.
True. But if the person isn't white they're likely to be called Heiren 黑人 instead. It's understandable why some would think Laowai means white person.
That said, I don't see any response in this thread that mentions it being a term for a white person.
Did you read the article?
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I'm not black, as in of African ancestry, but I'm fairly dark, especially during the summer and I've been called hēirén and fēizhōurén but lǎowài is much more common.
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By the way, a few of the responses talk about it being a term for 'white' people.
It isn't.
True. But if the person isn't white they're likely to be called Heiren 黑人 instead. It's understandable why some would think Laowai means white person.
That said, I don't see any response in this thread that mentions it being a term for a white person.
Did you read the article?
My fault. I assumed you meant responses here.
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I'm not black, as in of African ancestry, but I'm fairly dark, especially during the summer and I've been called hēirén and fēizhōurén but lǎowài is much more common.
I hear it in English sometimes. Not exactly 黑人 but if I have a decent tan in the summer even my friends will say....Wow, you're black.
I think the puzzling thing for us is that we simply do not often understand the meaning behind the words. We listen with our own cultural norms and expectations in our heads where if somebody ever says ...'Wow, you're black' it would be a pretty big WTF moment. Sure, 老外 can be used in a negative way but as much as I despise hearing 老外 it's not usually used as such. Also....my ears are kinda tuned into that word. Often I'll think I hear it when something with a similar sound was said.
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By the way, a few of the responses talk about it being a term for 'white' people.
It isn't.
True. But if the person isn't white they're likely to be called Heiren 黑人 instead. It's understandable why some would think Laowai means white person.
That said, I don't see any response in this thread that mentions it being a term for a white person.
Arabs are also Laowai
My wife says it's people with deep eyes and big noses. kkkkkkkkkk
hmmm, are Russians laowai?
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There is also no reason to believe it's used uniformly across all regions of China.
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I don't think we can trust what Chinese say a Chinese expression means. It's hard enough to get an English speaker to explain English words adequately (what with multiple meanings and layers of contextual nuance), but in Chinese, particularly with this word "laowai", you've got a background of high context affiliation to think of as well. In-group and out-group relationships are complex, negotiated, and while perhaps clearly signed if you know the forms, they're not often literally spoken, are they?
Which is to say, if there's some "out-group" connotation to "laowai", then people who like you and want to maintain affiliation might not even know how to objectively detail the meaning of the word. Like such a lot in Chinese culture, you're supposed to just know. (And you'll be forgiven if you don't, but it's one of those tests of cultural sophistication and therefore of relationship strength that opens deeper connections if you do, somehow, just know..)
/paranoid
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This is an interesting article and debate we are having here too. I think your personal feelings over the world changes as you get more experience. As for me, I had no problem in the beginning with it, then I went through the "it's so rude!" phase and now I'm back again at the "meh, whateves" phase. But I live in a boonie city with barely any foreigners so I think I have to do that just to survive and not live in a cloud of anger.
And I agree with the kids thing. Even here in the boonies kids say waiguoren, while older people say laowai.
And like somebody said in that article when I was in thailand I overheard some chinese people speaking and they said "It's over there, by the laowai." (I was standing next to something they wanted.) I didn't say anything but I was so tempted to say, in chinese, "In Thailand, your a laowai too!" haha
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This is an interesting article and debate we are having here too. I think your personal feelings over the world changes as you get more experience. As for me, I had no problem in the beginning with it, then I went through the "it's so rude!" phase and now I'm back again at the "meh, whateves" phase. But I live in a boonie city with barely any foreigners so I think I have to do that just to survive and not live in a cloud of anger.
And I agree with the kids thing. Even here in the boonies kids say waiguoren, while older people say laowai.
Mingbai le!
A number of years ago (10+) I spent 10 days in your city (SX) doing a winter English camp. I had really looked forward to it, because I am a big fan of Lu Xun. It was the worst 10 days of my life in China because everyday the commute between the hotel they put me in and the location was one giant "LAOWAI!" extravaganza. I've lived in smaller and larger towns, but SX was the absolute worst. I understand the "just to survive" part of you message.
(My solution then, I sought out the Indian restaurant near Bar Street there just to survive.)
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Today, in Beijing. Where "laowai" is HEARD few and far between.
Scene: After morning classes I went to a nearby Burger King for lunch which features outdoor seating. It's in a new mall, in an upscale area just north of the 4th Ring Road, not much foot traffic. I ordered my lunch and took it to an outside table. No one else was sitting outside. Eating my lunch, I was playing with my phone, but also watched a slow progression of mostly office ladies, retail workers (women), and a few stay-at-home-moms from the nearby villas wander into the Burger King for lunch. It again struck me that it's usually Chinese females who frequent the "western places" here. It also could have been the local demographic. But I was noticing it. And just at the moment while I was thinking about that...
Along come a pair of middle-aged Chinese men-45 or so. Both were wearing nice, but loud-coloured sport coats. No one was around, so I Could hear them talking and one said to the other, "We can eat here. They have "tao san" meals (meal packages). I immediately thought: "He's explaining the concept to his friend, never having eatern Burger King before."
They ducked inside. Less than a minute later, one of them emerged from the store alone and looked around the patio. He was the one the other guy had been explaining the concept to. It was obvious to me that they had gone inside and his friend said, "Go outside and get us a table." (Common in fast food restaurants here.)
Since I was the only one outside and there were 6 or 7 empty tables, this was a no-brainer. Here's what happened next, outside is only myself at my table, and this 45 year old lost soul (LS). No one else. I'm looking at my phone reading the news. Here's what I hear:
LS (speaking to himself): Wah! Laowai!
old (to himself): FFS, There are 7 other empty tables here. Get one!
LS: Wah! laowai chou yan (Wow, foreigners smoke cigarettes.) (I had finished my meal and lit up. Why I was sitting on the patio.)
(He is talking to himself, there's no one else present here. His friend is inside ordering their meals.)
old: (to himself) WTF, this is Beijng. Didn't I just write a post on Raoul's last night about the use of "laowai" and how rare it is to hear here! WTF. Dude is talking to himself. But he has a nice sports coat on, albeit peach-colored.
Then...
He walks directly over to my table, again talking to himself:
LS: Laowai chou shenme yan? (What cigarettes is the laowai smoking?)
And proceeds to pick up my pack of cigarettes to see the brand and mutters: "Ta chou shenme yan" (He smokes what? Again, too himself, using the 3P)
Like picking up a toy a dog is playing with to see what it is.
The conversation proceeds thusly:
old: You shi ma? (What do you want?)
LS: (a little shocked): Uhh? (Like "the dog can speak") Ni chou yan. (You smoke!)
old: Mei ni shi. (None of your business.)
LS: uhh! (He appears to be able to speak Chinese. Impossible.)
old: Guan ni pi shi. (Colloquial Chinese for "none of your fucking business"!)
LS: (This registers and anger flashes across his face.)
old: Zou kai (Go way). Guan Kai (Roll away like a barrel - a rude Chinese expression which means "Fuck Off"!)
My anger matches his, and he starts to back off.
LS: As he backs off, he pulls out his own pack of cigarettes and mumbles more to himself than to me:
"wo ye chou zhongguo yan" (I also smoke Chinese cigarettes!) and finds the farthest table from mine to sit down at.
A couple of minutes later, his friend emerges from inside with a tray full of food. Only then do I notice that although he seems well dressed in a sport coat, his feet are shod in sandals.
Upon reflection, I think what happened here were that a couple of workers from a nearby construction site decided to have lunch at the upscale mall, and they dug out their "sport coat" and wandered over. (Migrant workers often will have one sport coat just in case.)
In this case, the "laowai" didn't bother me as much, as I've become used to it, though not in Beijing. It was the further action of basically ignoring that the "laowai" was a person and you can just walk over and check out his belongings.
Offered for what it's worth in this thread as it just happened this afternoon. In Beijing.
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I'm re-posting the original link here again because the commentary on the original article keeps growing.
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=11626 (http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=11626)
Go back and catch up on it. Good stuff there continues.
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You must have impressed him with your ability to eat and breathe simultaneously. bibibibibi
Similar has happened to me. One episode a little different that I think I posted before;
Back in Changchun, the g/f and I went to a nice restaurant on the other side of town. As we sit, the waitress comes over and stands there waiting to take our order as we peruse the menu. That's her job, no problem. Then another girl comes, stand next to her and just stares at me. After a moment or two, I ask my g/f WTF. She asks new girl what's up? She replies, I've never seen a foreigner up close before.
I told my g/f to tell her strongly but not in a mean way that I'm not a fucking animal in a zoo to be gawked at. The first waitress apologizes. I told her not to, it wasn't her fault
So my dear big noses, the endless finger pointing will never cease as long as China has Chinese people
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Chinese living in English speaking countries-I won't use "Western"; wtf does that mean-commonly call we homies waiguoren and laowai. Pointing out the lack of logic/intelligence involved brings giggles but no change otherwise. Other Asians are referred to by their nationality, such as Hanguoren.
If we can understand that "xenophobia" translates into Mandarin as " a love of China" it all starts to make sense bjbjbjbjbj.
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I got meiguonin'd today. A cheerful kid in the blue tracksuit of the local school and missing two front teeth was screwing around the street food carts with two of his minuscule buddies when he whirled suddenly and, already a bit too excited, saw me bearing down upon him. Wah! he exploded from arm's length away. Meiguonin lai le!
I think I concur, actually. I don't recall hearing kids use laowai much at all. There does seem to me to be some age and station component to use of the term. Like, today's meiguonin was tiresome but seemed more like kid mischief than anything I'd have to correct him on. If he'd used laowai it would've seemed out of place.
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I've heard laowai loads of times from little kids.
"Hey dad, there's a laowai'
"Well holy shit, we live in an international city with 1000s of laowai you little idiot"
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Kids these days.
I'm in a third tier city. Not bumpkinville exactly but not cosmopolitan either. There might be a correlation between kids having attitude and their city not being a jumped up river settlement.
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There's a translation issue I think.
We use the word foreigner to mean not from this place but even in the west it is may be used as 'not like me'. If you view the idea of a Chinese person referring to an American in the US as lǎowài as not meaning 'not from this place' but meaning not like me or not from China/East Asia, then it makes more sense and in the Chinese language they are not doing anything wrong. However it shouldn't be directly translated into English there. So a Chinese guy saying "老外来了" lǎowài lái le in the States is ok but saying "the foreigner is coming" is not.
We also like to break down the etymology of words and show what lǎo and wài mean and how they relate to other words and what it all means and really none of that may matter. Word meanings drift. It doesn't matter what lǎo and wài mean, it matters how lǎowài is used now. 通知 tōngzhī certainly has changed and 'awesome' makes no sense at all.
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Be'in all southern like, I don't get laowai'd too often. Those raised speaking putonghua usually settle for waiguoren and the guangdonghua speakers typically start out with gweilo (鬼佬) - at least until they figure out that gweilo was the first word I learned in Cantonese. Then they reassure me over and over again that the word has no negative connotations while simultaneously acting very very embarrassed and apologetic. ahahahahah
Every one of my Chinese friends that I've asked swears up and down that there are no insulting terms in Chinese for foreigners and absolutely no word or phrase meaning anything anywhere close to anything like foreign devil. So far, I haven't caught anyone using the Cantonese bak gwei (白鬼) or Mandarin yang guizi (洋鬼子) while talking about me, but I'm sure if I pay attention, I'll get lucky sooner or later. ahahahahah
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I hear laowai and waiguoren often, though normally from children. It saddens me. A child once called me a yangguizi or some such spelling which, I learned, meant foreign devil. I liked that. Foreign devil. Sounds awesome. Whenever someone shouts laowai, I simply shout zhongguo ren right back. They can call me the Leper King of the Faeces-Encrusted Plague Pits....as long as their schools keep putting money in my account. agagagagag agagagagag
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I hear laowai and waiguoren often, though normally from children. It saddens me. A child once called me a yangguizi or some such spelling which, I learned, meant foreign devil. I liked that. Foreign devil. Sounds awesome. Whenever someone shouts laowai, I simply shout zhongguo ren right back. They can call me the Leper King of the Faeces-Encrusted Plague Pits....as long as their schools keep putting money in my account. agagagagag agagagagag
Yeah I quite like 'foreign devil' or 'ghost', makes me think of cool stuff. Laowai just makes me think of farmer idiot people
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Has anyone tried "xiao zhong" as a reply? I used to do that back in the day. Students would laugh or be puzzled.
One time, in Ningbo, there was this wannabe migrant worker (not an actual migrant worker, just some peasant dude who hung around the food street near the school) and he wanted to point and say yang guizi. I used to point and say huang guizi. Made sense to me. He seemed not to hear it.
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I hate the laowai thing. Usually I let it go with just a dirty look, but sometimes I'll say something. My husband will almost always say something because he gets offended on behalf of me and the kids. Last week we were at the park and walking around, and this girl, maybe 10 years old, shouts out "waiguoren!" We ignored it the first time, but then she shouted it again and I said "never seen one before?" and my husband said "didn't your parents raise you to have any manners?" He is absolutely done making excuses for his countrymen and women.
Like old said, we heard "laowai," or even "waiguoren," very infrequently in Beijing. In fact, in Beijing, when we heard it from kids, their parents would almost always correct them and say something like "don't be rude," even when they'd only said "waiguoren" and not "laowai." Beijingers are fairly invested in appearing modern and cosmopolitan and consider noticing foreigners at all to be uncouth peasant behavior.
That is definitely something I miss the hell out of about Beijing.
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Am i the only one who replies "konichiwa" to the farmers' chorus of "hello!", and "ribenren" to "laowai"?
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I use German or Korean. bjbjbjbjbj
Speaking of "laowei" weirdness... I live by a military base, and as I was walking to school a jeep pulled up beside me with three men inside and started trying to sell me some shoes. Then they asked me for some cigarettes, so I gave them three and used that as my exit. This was all in full view of like 30 students and parents because school was just letting out. Full military jeep, green, massive.
What was that all about?
I do have a note about the whole "foreigner" thing. I once flew from Seoul to Atlanta. Upon landing a small Korean kid mentioned, "Wow, there are a lot of foreigners here." I told him in Korea, "Welcome to America." Hopefully now he thinks all foreigners can speak Korean. uuuuuuuuuu
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Whenever someone shouts laowai, I simply shout zhongguo ren right back.
On the rare occasion someone tosses that one at me here in Mandarin. I fire off a "Ni Hao Wai Di Ren" (Hello outsider/migrant type) right back at them.- except I say it in Cantonese.
(I don't know the proper spelling of "Lei hou, noi dei yan" in letters)
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I usually point at them and scream "Laowai, Laowai, Laowai" in a high pitched annoying voice so that everyone around can hear. Funny how they cringe
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Quite a good one I have for 'hello' to shut people up, I only do this if I'm drunk because I'm normally polite and English and just curse under my breath, you get a 'hello' and you answer back 'hello' in the global mentally disabled voice, that stops them chuckling
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Either I don't get out enough or I've stopped listening, but I don't hear it that much anymore. I saw this today:
Laowai: the old furriner (http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=11626)
Lǎowài 老外 (lit., "old foreign") is a ubiquitous term for a certain type of person from abroad in China, and dictionaries almost invariably gloss it as "foreigner". Yet the subtleties and nuances of the term seem almost endless, and they can sometimes lead to misunderstandings and hurt feelings. To try to get a handle on this colloquial expression, I asked a number of laowai who have had long experience in China what they thought of this appellation that they had doubtless been called hundreds of times and some Chinese friends who most likely had had occasion to employ that designation themselves.
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Interdasting.
"Lao" doesn't mean old in this case. For example, laoshi (teacher), laopo (wife). It's just an expression. There's no discrimination in it. Another example, sometimes you may hear "guilao" (鬼佬). Perhaps you think it's a discrimination. but I don't agree. For example, we call our kids "xiaogui" (小鬼). Again, it's just an expression.
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I sometimes hear "waiguoren" in Taiwan, usually from staff at restaurants in the context of "hey, did you get that waiguoren's order?"
Back when I lived in Shenzhen, if a child said "waiguoren" or "laowai" I'd respond in Chinese "Where?" Sometimes I'd casually say, "I'm not a waiguoren, I'm a zhongguoren." One time a kid's grandmother overheard this, yelled at the kid, "Didn't you hear him, he's Chinese." She then turned to me and started laughing. But for the most part, when migrant workers or restaurant staff would say "laowai" it was meant to be condescending or derogatory.
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I have to say I'm not at all fussed about getting called Laowai. I guess I just got used to it.
Here's my technique to stop a starer. I blow them a big kiss. They usually will run away in embarrassment afafafafaf
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I'd like to try that, but don't think my wife would like it
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I bet she would think it was funny if you did it to a man ahahahahah
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maybe I will, just to get a reaction
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The Chinese sometimes call each other Laowai. Not a term of endearment.
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Another example, sometimes you may hear "guilao" (鬼佬). Perhaps you think it's a discrimination. but I don't agree. For example, we call our kids "xiaogui" (小鬼). Again, it's just an expression.
Or as my wife so eloquently put it "That's just what we call you people.
Having not grown up in a civilized culture the nuance of this may be lost on you, but after several years I finally got my family to knock that shit off and stop referring to me by my color. To put this in perspective, in the US in the 1950's people often referred to African-Americans as "negroes" - oh but they didn't mean anything by it! That just what they called you people (them). I doubt anyone would last the day if they went around casually doing their business, referring to people by their color like that anymore.
There is fundamentally no difference between "negro" and "gweilo". You both "didn't mean anything by it", but the terms refer to someone's color and/or how they are not a part of your group. Both are as equally unacceptable.
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Another example, sometimes you may hear "guilao" (鬼佬). Perhaps you think it's a discrimination. but I don't agree. For example, we call our kids "xiaogui" (小鬼). Again, it's just an expression.
Or as my wife so eloquently put it "That's just what we call you people.
Having not grown up in a civilized culture the nuance of this may be lost on you, but after several years I finally got my family to knock that shit off and stop referring to me by my color. To put this in perspective, in the US in the 1950's people often referred to African-Americans as "negroes" - oh but they didn't mean anything by it! That just what they called you people (them). I doubt anyone would last the day if they went around casually doing their business, referring to people by their color like that anymore.
There is fundamentally no difference between "negro" and "gweilo". You both "didn't mean anything by it", but the terms refer to someone's color and/or how they are not a part of your group. Both are as equally unacceptable.
Yes, agreed.
Also what you call your child has no bearing here. Nor what you call your friend nor family members. I can call my friend fuckface and mean it almost affectionally but that doesn't mean I should say it with people I don't know.
If you know some foreigners don't like it and find it offensive why would you continue to use it to refer to them?
For me I don't care what strangers do or say but I find it annoying with people I know because I have a name and they know it.
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Wot Stil and BrandX both said.
(Yet) Another story. If it's too long for you, skip to the end:
A few years ago I went over to the FAO office to ask some question of our FAO liaison (let's call her Xiaobao because some of you might know her). Walking into the office, I encountered Xiaobao's assistant working on the computer and an older (around 59 year old) short, fat man lounging on the couch. Some kind of administrator as I was on the administration floor of the school. It was shortly after lunch break.
I walked in, ignoring the guy, who appeared to be trying to schmooze the youngie, and asked the assistant (whose English is weak), "Xiaobao zai ma? ("Is Xiaobao here?")
One of those useless questions you ask in Chinese when you know what the answer is.
"Bu zai!" the assistant answered.
"Shenme shihou hui lai?" (When will she be back?) I asked.
"Yi huar," she replied. (In awhile.)
Suddenly, lounging man sat up, ignoring me, and said to the assistant, "Wah! Neige laowai hui shuo zhongwen!"
The assistant knew I hated hearing that word, "Laowai!" and she cringed.
I turned to the old man, and said, "Ni shi shui?" (Who are you?) And without waiting for an answer, I continued "Wo shi waijiao!" (I'm a foreign teacher!)
Then I looked him directly face-to-face. For some reason I can't explain, but later saved my ass, I decided to address him condescendingly in English "You are stupid!" Then I walked out.
An hour later, back in my apartment, I received a call from Xiaobao. "You came to see me today. Sorry I wasn't there. Did you call my boss "stupid?"
"You're what?" I asked.
"My boss." she said.
To shorten the already long story, it turns out that the old man was in fact the official FAO of the school on paper, and Xiaobao's boss and had been recently transferred to that cadre position from another school just prior to his retirement. All of our FT interactions had always been through Xiaobao. Oh, and despite being the putative head of the school FAO, he spoke no English.
Except he understood the word, "Stupid".
Which I had called him.
"Yes," I told Xiaobao. "I called him stupid. He called me 'laowai'" She knew my feelings on that term.
I continued, "If he really is the school FAO, that's even less excuse for calling me 'laowai'. He knows I am a waijiao then."
"I understand," said Xiaobao, "but it's going to be big trouble for you. I'll try to talk to him."
A half-hour later I got a call from the Dean of the Foreign Languages. Like Xiaobao, the asst. FAO, I got along well with him. We basically had the same conversation. He was more ominous though, "This guy wants you fired immediately."
I think part of it was I got in his face while he was trying to schmooze the young assistant while Xiaobao was out of the office, and he lost some face when the laowai got in his face. Nevertheless, my two good friends in admin-Xiaobao and the Dean-both were very worried about my future.
It was escalated up to the school VP of Academic Affairs to decide. The old man insisting that I be fired immediately. The Dean and Xiaobao vouching for my work-ethic and student ratings, etc. Both agreeing that this FAO was clueless as an FAO and been sent here to this Institute's cadre's last resting place program before retirement.
I insisted to both the Dean and Xiaobao that I be given the chance to state my case to the academic VP who, according to them, had already decided she had to terminate me under the rules of cadre-ship. One elderly cadre will back up another. They both said it would be hard to do, but still I insisted. I liked the school, and done a lot for them, and I liked the students. "Give me a chance to talk to the VP."
"Her English isn't very good," said Xiaobao.
"That's OK, you can translate."
They were able to get me an audience with the VP. Xiaobao was really nervous. When I walked in and met the VP, she was a woman also almost close to retirement. She handed me her card, and told me her Chinese given name was something like "Stalin's Star." No doubt she had been a Red Guard in her academic years.
OK, if you've read this far, here's the payoff on this topic.
We sat down and she accused me of the crime I had committed against a Senior leader of the school. I had called him "Stupid" and he understood it. She understood it.
In the simplest English I could muster (the VP could understand a modicum of English) and with Xiaobao translating the rest (though we hadn't pre-prepared this), I explained thusly: [cut-and-paste the below for future reference]
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
I am a foreigner and I came to China to help improve students' English. You hired me as a Foreign Expert to do so. In western culture, people don't being called old (Lao). I've been here for a few years already but I'm still considered "way" outsider. So "laowai" is very offensive to most foreigners who have come to China.
I know that many Chnese will simply say, "Oh, laowai isn't meant to be offensive. It's just what we call you." But, in fact if you could be us for just one day and walk around the city and constantly hear, "Laowai!" everywhere we appear, it would be very annoying to you. Yesterday, some old guy, who I now know is supposed to be the official FAO of this school, referred to me as "laowai" when he knows I am a "waijiao". It's very offensive, and mores now that I know he is the official FAO.
The VP responded with, "Well, I have read the reports and everyone says you are a good teacher. But you called an administrator "stupid to his face, so you must apologize."
"I called him stupid. I said it in English," I explained to her.
Surprisingly, it's one of the few English words he knows. He was offended. To be honest, Ms. VP, in English, the word "Stupid is not as bad as when it's translated into Chinese. I can address my good friends as, "Stupid" and even myself, "Oh, old34, you were so stupid to have done that." None would be very offended because, well, stupid is just stupid. Somewhat benign.
But if you take the raw English word "stupid" and translate it into Chinese in various ways, it is highly offensive. (bendan, erbaiwu, dhabi, shagua, 62 (in hangzhou hua), etc.) That's why he was offended.
Then I paused to let Xiaobao deliver this content.
"In the end," Ms. VP, "it's the LISTENER or receiver of the term who decides if it is negative, not the intent of the speaker."
"I didn't like being called laowai, even though many claim it's not derogatory. He didn't like being called 'stupid' even though most native English speakers would consider it mildly-at best-derogatory. Though when translated to Chinese it's highly derogatory.
Again: It's the LISTENER or RECIEVER who determines if it's offensive. And if you know it is offensive to them, don't use it.
"So what should we do," asked the VP of me. "Everyone else wants you to stay. What can we do?"
"Let me stay," I answered.
"Are you willing to apologize to Mr. Z for what you said?" she asked.
"Of course," I answered, "because I offended him as the listener. But I expect an apology from him for calling me, a waijiao in his department, for calling me "laowai", which offended me as a listener."
I was not fired, my contract was renewed with a bonus, and that was the end of it.
A few years later (after I moved on), Xiaobao is now the head of the FAO at that school.
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Another example, sometimes you may hear "guilao" (鬼佬). Perhaps you think it's a discrimination. but I don't agree. For example, we call our kids "xiaogui" (小鬼). Again, it's just an expression.
Or as my wife so eloquently put it "That's just what we call you people.
Having not grown up in a civilized culture the nuance of this may be lost on you, but after several years I finally got my family to knock that shit off and stop referring to me by my color. To put this in perspective, in the US in the 1950's people often referred to African-Americans as "negroes" - oh but they didn't mean anything by it! That just what they called you people (them). I doubt anyone would last the day if they went around casually doing their business, referring to people by their color like that anymore.
There is fundamentally no difference between "negro" and "gweilo". You both "didn't mean anything by it", but the terms refer to someone's color and/or how they are not a part of your group. Both are as equally unacceptable.
That's one of the best explanations I've heard for why laowai is unacceptable. Well done Brandex.
And Old34, that's an awesome story as well. That you got a Chinese cadre to understand that small lesson about offensive language being in the eyes of the beholder is nothing short of a miracle.
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There is fundamentally no difference between "negro" and "gweilo". You both "didn't mean anything by it", but the terms refer to someone's color and/or how they are not a part of your group. Both are as equally unacceptable.
Then what's the "proper" term when referring to black people in China? In one of my classes, I have six students from Senegal. I actually caught myself just before referring to them as "African American" because the word "black" is ingrained in my mind as offensive. I told the class what had just gone through my thoughts and it set them chattering and laughing as this was news to them. When asked, they said they found no offense in being called "black".
It's a little crazy and completely relative. If you use a word that you don't intend and don't know to be offensive, you can hardly be called rude. As George Carlin said, "No word is offensive in and of itself. It's the context that matters". The U.S. government and media routinely use the word "Browns" when referring to a segment of the population because, I think, Hispanic doesn't completely cover it. I'm sure that one day soon, that word will become pejorative and banned. And God forbid you get caught using the word "Oriental" in the U.S.
On a barely relevant note, a politician once got into extremely hot water by using the word "niggardly". Even after having the etymology of the word explained, many still wanted his head. It's a crazy world.....someone outta sell tickets.
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http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjEyMzY2MjUy.html
Alternatively, "Why did I come to China..."
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Then what's the "proper" term when referring to black people in China? In one of my classes, I have six students from Senegal.
Have you asked them?
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Another example, sometimes you may hear "guilao" (鬼佬). Perhaps you think it's a discrimination. but I don't agree. For example, we call our kids "xiaogui" (小鬼). Again, it's just an expression.
Or as my wife so eloquently put it "That's just what we call you people.
Having not grown up in a civilized culture the nuance of this may be lost on you, but after several years I finally got my family to knock that shit off and stop referring to me by my color. To put this in perspective, in the US in the 1950's people often referred to African-Americans as "negroes" - oh but they didn't mean anything by it! That just what they called you people (them). I doubt anyone would last the day if they went around casually doing their business, referring to people by their color like that anymore.
There is fundamentally no difference between "negro" and "gweilo". You both "didn't mean anything by it", but the terms refer to someone's color and/or how they are not a part of your group. Both are as equally unacceptable.
Yes, agreed.
Also what you call your child has no bearing here. Nor what you call your friend nor family members. I can call my friend fuckface and mean it almost affectionally but that doesn't mean I should say it with people I don't know.
If you know some foreigners don't like it and find it offensive why would you continue to use it to refer to them?
For me I don't care what strangers do or say but I find it annoying with people I know because I have a name and they know it.
Right, I understand what you said. I don't like "guilao" either and I don't use it. But the "lao" in "laowai" has the same meaning as it in "laoshi"(teacher), "laoban"(boss), "laopo"(wife) and doesn't mean old literally, which I have to explain. I'm sure you don't feel offended when Chinese students call you "laoshi".
Even though I have explained this, I guess you may still feel offended when people call you "laowai". As it sounds like a tag on you. I guess you also feel offended being called "waiguoren"(foreigner).
Then I want to know what you prefer being called when people don't know who you are and where you are from? bjbjbjbjbj
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I think it's a cultural thing,Freegink.At home we call people by their name when we are introduced.If we don't know their name we don't have to point them out and call them anything! Why do you need to point at someone in the street and say anything? We are ALL just people! the country we come from is not the important thing- it's who we are ,and how we behave that is important isn't it? Birth is geographical accident.
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The "china" of "chinaman" is "China", which all would agree is a country, but "chinaman" remains a contentious expression anyway. The meaning of language is the use to which it is put, not the use to which we say it is put. And "laowai", at least, is used to identify outsiders.
In English language cultures, the difference between "Hey, you're not from around here" and "Hey, he's not from around here" lies in what you're going to do next: interact with or stigmatize. The first sally is already interaction; the second is ripe with suspicion.
"Laowai" is used in the second form. It is used to alienate. To make alien.
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Come to think of it, I don't have a problem with "waiguoren". As far as I can tell, that expression is literal. "Laowai", however, feels like a cultural category. There's some nuanced usage going on there, and it's, you guessed it, alienating.
On occasion I've had people I know and like refer to me while talking to others and they've used "laowai" or "women laowai". The others they're talking to are met in their institutional capacity (a nurse at a hospital, for eg). Or for instance, I've heard the foreign affairs officer use "laowai" on the phone when, say, talking to deans of departments about the foreigners that work for them now. I can sort of hear that the term is meant without derogatory import. I can sort of hear that "laowai" just is what I am, the foreigner among them, and it isn't negative.
But... I can count instances of that relatively benign use on one hand. And I've heard "laowai" a great many more times than that.
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Right, I understand what you said. I don't like "guilao" either and I don't use it. But the "lao" in "laowai" has the same meaning as it in "laoshi"(teacher), "laoban"(boss), "laopo"(wife) and doesn't mean old literally, which I have to explain. I'm sure you don't feel offended when Chinese students call you "laoshi".
The 'lao' in 'laowai' doesn't matter because that's the etymology of the word not the actual word and has little bearing on how it's used. The word "laowai" has been used in derogatory way at times. The way words are used can change while their etymology doesn't. "tongzhi", for example has had an additional meaning attached to it over the past couple of decades.
Even though I have explained this, I guess you may still feel offended when people call you "laowai". As it sounds like a tag on you. I guess you also feel offended being called "waiguoren"(foreigner).
You are not explaining anything we don't know. The difference is that China is not a multi-cultural country and so has never had to deal with these issues and it can be difficult to understand. Even in western countries with a history of multiculturalism there are issues about what words are appropriate.
Then I want to know what you prefer being called when people don't know who you are and where you are from? bjbjbjbjbj
"waiguoren" is used less often in a derogatory way however it's still exclusionary. It's use overseas shows that it doesn't really mean foreigner, but means a non-chinese looking person. As a description of someone you don't know or the party you are talking with doesn't know, it's fine, however, why use the exclusionary word when you know someones name? Why say "I'm with the foreigner" when you can say "I'm with John" when everybody knows who John is? Emphasizing difference is exclusionary and being exclusionary is unfriendly, insensitive and somewhat impolite.
If "laowai" had never been used in a derogatory way, then there would be no issue (other than the exclusionary one as with "waiguoren"), but it has, and once it has, you can't just decide to put the genie back into the bottle. If you use the word, then you are taking a chance that the foreigner will be offended regardless of your intent.
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Right. I get it, Stil. I guess most of Chinese people don't think "laowai" is a derogatory word. I think you know how Chinese people think of westerners as you have been in China for a long time. Most of them still think people from western countries are superior. But you guys feel it's derogatory. That's fair enough.
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It's hard to think of China as being less multi-cultural given the vast number of ethnicities, languages, religions etc. Maybe the difference is that it's more segmented; not a melting pot. And being so group oriented, you are either in or out with little in between.
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Right. I get it, Stil. I guess most of Chinese people don't think "laowai" is a derogatory word. I think you know how Chinese people think of westerners as you have been in China for a long time. Most of them still think people from western countries are superior. But you guys feel it's derogatory. That's fair enough.
I don't think this is true at all. There is loads of underlying resentment towards foreigners and foreign countries in China. Just look at the massive media frenzy anytime there's a case of a foreigner doing something wrong in China. My friend entered the bus from the wrong door a week or so ago and had guys shouting abuse at him for about 10 minutes straight, including the the "in our China" etc. etc. line. Him entering the bus from the back door instead of the front had nothing to do with foreign vs. Chinese, in fact, I saw two Chinese old ladies doing the same thing just a few days ago.
This idea that foreigners are somehow regarded as superior and that the average Chinese person looks up to us is about 10 years out of date. We've had long threads here about this before, and maybe, having been out of China for so long you haven't really experienced it, but just as I wouldn't dream of telling a Chinese person that there's no racism in my own country, I would also respectfully submit that not having been on the receiving end of anti-foreigner sentiment, you might not be in the best place to judge whether it actually exists or not.
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I don't think this is true at all. There is loads of underlying resentment towards foreigners and foreign countries in China. Just look at the massive media frenzy anytime there's a case of a foreigner doing something wrong in China. My friend entered the bus from the wrong door a week or so ago and had guys shouting abuse at him for about 10 minutes straight, including the the "in our China" etc. etc. line. Him entering the bus from the back door instead of the front had nothing to do with foreign vs. Chinese, in fact, I saw two Chinese old ladies doing the same thing just a few days ago.
This idea that foreigners are somehow regarded as superior and that the average Chinese person looks up to us is about 10 years out of date. We've had long threads here about this before, and maybe, having been out of China for so long you haven't really experienced it, but just as I wouldn't dream of telling a Chinese person that there's no racism in my own country, I would also respectfully submit that not having been on the receiving end of anti-foreigner sentiment, you might not be in the best place to judge whether it actually exists or not.
Even though I have been outside of China for a few years, I believe I still know about Chinese people well. In recent years, with the high rise of China's economy, a lot of Chinese people think China is now a powerful country. But why more and more Chinese people are emigrating or want to emigrate to Western countries? Smart people know the distance between China and US, etc.
Also I have experienced enough anti-foreigner sentiment where I live. Like throwing eggs on Asians, calling Asian pigs. Of course, not only Asians are treated this way, some Europeans have got the same treatment. Have you ever experienced this kind of things in China. I bet no.
Let's say there are jerks in every country. Why would we bother waste time on discussing these people instead of normal people.
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Also I have experienced enough anti-foreigner sentiment where I live. Like throwing eggs on Asians, calling Asian pigs. Of course, not only Asians are treated this way, some Europeans have got the same treatment. Have you ever experienced this kind of things in China. I bet no.
Let's say there are jerks in every country. Why would we bother waste time on discussing these people instead of normal people.
You would lose that bet.
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Also I have experienced enough anti-foreigner sentiment where I live. Like throwing eggs on Asians, calling Asian pigs. Of course, not only Asians are treated this way, some Europeans have got the same treatment. Have you ever experienced this kind of things in China. I bet no.
Let's say there are jerks in every country. Why would we bother waste time on discussing these people instead of normal people.
You would lose that bet.
Yeah, really. I'm not going to go into a litany of offenses because there are numerous threads on this very Saloon about anti-foreign sentiment and harassment and you can do your own research.
You don't know because you're on the other side and haven't experienced it. I'm not questioning your experiences with racism in the West, so don't question what you're being told by foreigners in China. That's like my white friends and I trying to tell African Americans in our country that racism is dead and hey, if you experience what feels like racism, well, that's just jerks being jerks. No worries right?
This thread is about the term "laowai," so that's why people who use othering language are being discussed. Whenever this comes up on forums the Chinese members jump in getting defensive because no, no, no, we respect and admire foreigners! It is classic "I'm not a racist but ..." or "Some of my best friends are black!" and I don't necessarily blame your average Chinese person for not recognizing it because no, China is not a multicultural society in the way that America or Australia is, and they don't have 100+ years of experience examining and breaking down ethnic/racial discrimination and prejudice in their own society. But someone who has experienced it from the other end should not be so dismissive of the experiences of people who have actually been the "other" in China.
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Also I have experienced enough anti-foreigner sentiment where I live. Like throwing eggs on Asians, calling Asian pigs. Of course, not only Asians are treated this way, some Europeans have got the same treatment. Have you ever experienced this kind of things in China. I bet no.
Let's say there are jerks in every country. Why would we bother waste time on discussing these people instead of normal people.
You would lose that bet.
Yeah, really. I'm not going to go into a litany of offenses because there are numerous threads on this very Saloon about anti-foreign sentiment and harassment and you can do your own research.
You don't know because you're on the other side and haven't experienced it. I'm not questioning your experiences with racism in the West, so don't question what you're being told by foreigners in China. That's like my white friends and I trying to tell African Americans in our country that racism is dead and hey, if you experience what feels like racism, well, that's just jerks being jerks. No worries right?
This thread is about the term "laowai," so that's why people who use othering language are being discussed. Whenever this comes up on forums the Chinese members jump in getting defensive because no, no, no, we respect and admire foreigners! It is classic "I'm not a racist but ..." or "Some of my best friends are black!" and I don't necessarily blame your average Chinese person for not recognizing it because no, China is not a multicultural society in the way that America or Australia is, and they don't have 100+ years of experience examining and breaking down ethnic/racial discrimination and prejudice in their own society. But someone who has experienced it from the other end should not be so dismissive of the experiences of people who have actually been the "other" in China.
That's fair enough. I take it.
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On the other hand...
while "laowai" does seem available to load with all sorts of nuance the hearer can detect and be alienated by, it's not universally negative, is it?
I was sitting today at lunch and at the next table were the elderly relatives of the owners. They seemed peaceful (and deeply bored). What terms, I wondered to myself, would such people use to identify me? It seemed to me were they using "laowai", it'd be relatively benign inasmuch as would they have other terms available?
Given both the "5000" years of history and the last hundred years of history, the question of Chinese honorifics in general is an interesting one.
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Also I have experienced enough anti-foreigner sentiment where I live. Like throwing eggs on Asians, calling Asian pigs. Of course, not only Asians are treated this way, some Europeans have got the same treatment. Have you ever experienced this kind of things in China. I bet no.
Freegink, this makes me more curious about where you are living in Australia.
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Also I have experienced enough anti-foreigner sentiment where I live. Like throwing eggs on Asians, calling Asian pigs. Of course, not only Asians are treated this way, some Europeans have got the same treatment. Have you ever experienced this kind of things in China. I bet no.
Freegink, this makes me more curious about where you are living in Australia.
Sorry, I'm reluctant to talk about where I live. Because I love this place and I don't want people to have bias towards this place. Most people are very nice and polite. Feel much better than in China even though it's relatively quiet compared to China.
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OK, if someone is interested, here's WIKI page of "laowai":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laowai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laowai)
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Sorry, I'm reluctant to talk about where I live. Because I love this place and I don't want people to have bias towards this place. Most people are very nice and polite. Feel much better than in China even though it's relatively quiet compared to China.
You don't have to say where you are living of course, but the reason you give for not doing so is ridiculous.
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After reading all the replies after my post, I should clarify that I was speaking only about the word "gweilo", and not "laowai". I don't care terribly much about laowai to be frank, although I see many in this thread do. Most specifically, "gweilo" as used in Guangdong means some variation of "ghost man" (literal), zombie, white devil, etc. It refers to someone's appearance rather than place of origin. In a similar fashion, black people are called "hakgwei", lit. "black ghost" by which, again referencing the US in the 50's, they essentially mean what people of the past did when they called someone a "spook". Both, quite unacceptable imo.
People's intention most of the time is in fact NOT antagonistic when they call you either of these here in GD. To me though, it is just the fact people refer to you by your color instead of name or "saiyun" (westerner) because you people sorta look like a pale dead corpse...
Also, as for what to call black people, you could ask someone's opinion and see how they feel, but it shouldn't be often you need to reference someone's color. I have had a few black friends here in GZ from North America, and all of them at some point had mentioned they preferred the term "black" and not "African American", primarily to differentiate themselves from the large-ish local population of Nigerians (and other African nations) here in GZ. e.g. "I'm not an African American, I'm just an American. I've never been to Africa."
Why bother with that? There is a higher level of discrimination for being of a dark skin tone AND actually from Africa, than just being a dark skinned American here (or so they say).
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But you guys feel it's derogatory. That's fair enough.
Some do, some don't. Down south, it's a step up from Gweilo. ahahahahah
There are some advantages to the Chinese approach. If westerners are at a party and there's a person or small group there that can be identified differently, figuring out how to make a reference without the possibility of being viewed as discriminatory or exclusionary has led to many an awkward moment. As Old34 pointed out, the intend of the speaker and the interpretation of the listener can be different, which can make for a conversational minefield at times.
Personally, if I was easily offended at being singled out in what could possibly be interpreted as an exclusionary way, I'd have found somewhere else besides China to move to. As it is, on those super rare occasions when I've spotted another . . . foreigner (is that too exclusionary?) in or near my village, I'm almost as startled as the locals. bjbjbjbjbj