Having babies in China

OK. I am looking for some folks who have lived through this for some advice and suggestions.

My wife is Chinese and we are expecting our first baby in 6 months. We wish to remain in China so we have already registered with the local paper pushers and my wife was given the "it's OK to have a baby" card.

...but we want 2 possibly 3 kids.

What are our options? As I understand it, we can technically have as many kids as we want if we pay a fine. Perhaps also need permission, I am not sure. The fine though seems to vary greatly. I live in Qingdao. Shandong province.

Also, if anyone has advice on things we should do or tests that should be done or really anything, I would be very happy to learn more.

As the wife of a terrible foreign barbarian, the One Child policy doesn't apply. No prob if you have more.

Before the birth, place your hands around the doctor's throat and make it clear that your wife can have all the anesthetic she wants, and that you will kill him if she doesn't get it. It was our experience that the birth was insufficiently anesthetized, and my wife suffered more than she needed to. I just had no idea...

As the wife of a terrible foreign barbarian, the One Child policy doesn't apply. No prob if you have more.

Hmmmnnn... does the one wife policy apply to terrible foreign barbarians?

Please don't spread the word that we've got some sort of exemption (limited or not) to the one child policy  to too many Chinese people.  My wife and I are using the "she's already had her legal quota of one perfect daughter" excuse to counter all the "you need another baby" comments from friends and relatives.

Lots of hospitals don't do any sort of pain relief for laboring moms as a blanket policy. If it is important to the mom that she gets pain relief in labor (like an epidural) you need to shop around and find a hospital that does allow it. In the bigger cities it shouldn't be a problem. I went natural with my 1st child and had an epidural with my 2nd. My epidural was not of the "feel absolutely no pain" type but it was good enough for me, since I experienced unmedicated birth and that was pretty darn painful. Keep in mind that Chinese doctors are never generous with pain meds pretty much as a rule. My husband has had surgery and the doctors gave him ONE vicodin for the recovery!

Have you discussed what you'll be doing about the after-birth period? There are a lot of expectations surrounding the first month after a woman gives birth, so start reading up now on "zuo yuezi" and ask your wife how strictly she plans to follow it. Traditionally new mothers don't leave the house, wash their hair, or open the windows for a month after the birth and they are also supposed to follow a special diet. Lots of Chinese women have their mother or mother in law come stay with them for that month. Also be prepared to hear a lot of wacky stuff about baby and childcare from the Chinese family (even your own wife). Choose your battles, heh.

As for family planning ... I have 2 kids and I'm married to a Chinese person, but I'm a woman and as a foreigner China can't control my reproduction. I think there were a few Saloonies with Chinese wives who had some trouble from the local ninnie-brigade over having 2 kids. Ultimately they're powerless if your kids have foreign passports, but you might have trouble getting them all on the family hukou without a fine. My unsolicited advice is that even if you are absolutely 1000% that you want to stay in China, get your kids your citizenship just in case. You just never know.

I generally have nothing to contribute to the topic but this time might be different. A friend of mine who happens to be a musician in Beijing just gave birth. She's Canadian and married to a grew Chinese guy blah blah blah...
point is she has documented everything on 2 blogs:

Preggers in China - Fare thee Well
http://www.emberswift.com/2012/fare-thee-well/  That one has an amazing collection of resources

http://www.emberswift.com/2011/looming-moon-month/  all about the Zuo yue Zi

interesting reads if you're a mom to beIMHO

Thanks for the input guys, really appreciated. I will check out those blogs when I dust off a VPN.

What about schooling? How would that work if my kid(s) are rolling with foreign passports? I can not afford fancy shmancy International Schools or anything even close. I have also heard that China considers any child born here to be Chinese and to renounce Chinese citizenship we'd have to do so outside of China.

While I am not a fan of the education system here one little bit, my wife's family lives here so we will remain. Perhaps I need to suck it up and eat a fine for more than one kid? I have heard so much conflicting information about this whole thing. While we were getting the "it's OK to have a baby" card, we asked if we could have multiple children and the woman just said to go to HK. This is another issue since HK has cracked down on the number of births permitted by mainland mothers. I can't locate the article now but the number of births permitted by mainland mothers in HK has been reduced to a fraction of what was previously allowed....either way it is not inexpensive.

As to after my wife has a baby..yeah I have heard some crazy things. My wife is fairly relaxed about it but to me it's still all voodoo and snake oil. She'll park her ass in bed for a month and her diet will change but she'll shower and wash her hair...thankfully. We're expecting the baby at the end of the summer and I won't be able to turn on the A/C...not excited about that. Could be worse though. My in-laws live quite close to us...as in...we live in the third floor and they live on the first. Maybe I'll get super lucky and my wife can stay with her mom for that month.

The schooling thing can be an issue. Chinese public schools are now, by law, supposed to enroll foreign passport holders but not all schools do, especially in smaller places. Some public schools have special international programs too, but they tend to attract a lot of Koreans and other Asians. However, this is a problem that can often be solved with guanxi and money, at least at the primary school level. Middle and high school can be more tricky because kids have to test to get into good schools and you don't have as much control over the process.

Once your kids get older you'll probably start discussing goals and whether they will want to stay in China for college or go to your home country. You also might find that once your kids are a bit older your Chinese family themselves might start advocating for you to take/send (as is common in China -- my co-worker just sent her 13 year old son to boarding school in the States so that he would have a clear path to a university there when the time comes) the kids abroad for their education, especially if they aren't on the Beida/Qinghua/Fudan track in China. With Chinese families really, once children come into the picture, all bets are off and most families are willing to make enormous sacrifices to do what is considered best for the child.

My kids also have not technically renounced their Chinese citizenship yet. They have American passports, but they don't have hukous. We don't plan on sending them to Chinese schools (we're looking to repatriate by the time my son starts 1st grade. He's 4 and in kindergarten now) but if we did we'd have to rely on guanxi to get him into a decent primary school. I don't think it would be particularly difficult, but it might be costly. Not as costly as international school though.

The fine for having extra kids can be pretty steep. It depends on your wife's hukou. A Chinese couple who had to pay the fine explained to us that it is something like a percentage of the average income in the area where you live. I can't remember exactly what the percentage is, but basically it will be more expensive in places like Beijing or Shanghai but not that bad if you're in the sticks. HK would probably be just as expensive, maybe moreso.

Hospitals can be barbaric by western standards, but the staff know what they're doing.  Yes, you can have as many kids as you want.  If you want them to have a hukou then you'll pay a fine, varying in amount from negligible to huge, depending on where you live.

If you want them to have your own nationality then it's different rules in different countries - nothing to do with Chinese regulations, just those of your own country.

Hospitals can be barbaric by western standards, but the staff know what they're doing.  Yes, you can have as many kids as you want.  if you want them to have a hukou then you'll pay a fine, varying in amount from negligible to huge, depending on where you live.

If you want them to have your own nationality then it's different rules in different countries - nothing to do with Chinese regulations, just those of your own country.

Couldn't it cause a lot of problems for the child in the future if they don't have a hukou?

Couldn't it cause a lot of problems for the child in the future if they don't have a hukou?

Not if you keep them locked in the basement.

Actually, I sort of wonder about this.  One of my friends has a brother.  He never registered the marriage to his wife and seems to be planning to try to have 4 or 5 kids before the registration while remaining under the rader.  How he'll square this to get them hukous, enroll them in school, etc. makes me wonder.

Quote from: Arnold J. Rimmer on February 24, 2012, 01:33:58 PM

Couldn't it cause a lot of problems for the child in the future if they don't have a hukou?

Not if you keep them locked in the basement.

Actually, I sort of wonder about this.  One of my friends has a brother.  He never registered the marriage to his wife and seems to be planning to try to have 4 or 5 kids before the registration while remaining under the rader.  How he'll square this to get them hukous, enroll them in school, etc. makes me wonder.

home school? 

Quote from: Paul on February 15, 2012, 05:31:24 AM

Hospitals can be barbaric by western standards, but the staff know what they're doing.  Yes, you can have as many kids as you want.  if you want them to have a hukou then you'll pay a fine, varying in amount from negligible to huge, depending on where you live.

If you want them to have your own nationality then it's different rules in different countries - nothing to do with Chinese regulations, just those of your own country.

Couldn't it cause a lot of problems for the child in the future if they don't have a hukou?

Yes, if they plan on remaining in China for the rest of their lives.

I imagine a lot of Chinese-American kids cash in on their foreign passports come college time. You are technically not allowed to have dual citizenship in China, so once you use your foreign passport your lack of a hukou becomes a moot point because you've renounced your Chinese citizenship (using your foreign passport is considered an automatic act of renouncing your Chinese citizenship). You will hear about people who "have" both citizenships/passports but that's only because they've flown under the radar. If the authorities find out you've been using a foreign passport they'll require you to relenquish your hukou.

It would not be a good idea for your kids to have neither a foreign passport nor a hukou. You'll want to choose one or the other for your kids. Unfortunately this country doesn't allow both.

You'll want to choose one or the other for your kids. Unfortunately this country doesn't allow both.

Just out of curiousity. Why?

Most countries do not afaik.

Quote from: The Local Dialect on February 25, 2012, 03:21:40 AM

You'll want to choose one or the other for your kids. Unfortunately this country doesn't allow both.

Just out of curiousity. Why?

I didn't make the law and I don't have anyone in the government who is going to tell me their secrets, so I can only speculate. China does not have liberal policies regarding immigration or citizenship in general. I don't think they like to encourage people who go to other countries and get citizenship and then want to come back and still have their local hukous and the preferential treatment that comes with that, or the people who go to Hong Kong to have their children so their kids can have a Hong Kong ID in order to evade family planning laws. China seems to frown on "backup" citizenships. If you think about it, it makes some sense -- this country certainly isn't starving for people, so if you want another country's citizenship then you can go ahead and take it and then you're not China's problem anymore.

China also has some laws (like family planning) that other countries do not have, and foreigners and Chinese people do not follow the same laws and regulations across the board in China. Having dual citizenship creates problems of enforcement. They can't control how many kids a foreign citizen has, so are you conveniently foreign when you want to have 3 kids, and then Chinese again when you want to buy a house or open a business?